I think people aren't giving flechette cannon /D enough of a fair shake. It's one point cheaper than an Ion while still doing a damage unlike a tractor. Also against some ships that stress is going to screw them more than a single ion token would, mostly large ships and ships with turrets.

Shuttles and Hound's Tooth's that are in a great position to stop now won't be able too, and that doesn't even count what a stress can do a brobot in a bad position. Your opponent will burn everything to stop that stress if it means they can't s-loop next round, which will open them up for your primary.

I think people aren't giving flechette cannon /D enough of a fair shake. It's one point cheaper than an Ion while still doing a damage unlike a tractor. Also against some ships that stress is going to screw them more than a single ion token would, mostly large ships and ships with turrets.

Shuttles and Hound's Tooth's that are in a great position to stop now won't be able too, and that doesn't even count what a stress can do a brobot in a bad position. Your opponent will burn everything to stop that stress if it means they can't s-loop next round, which will open them up for your primary.

I could see flechette cannon/D on a VI Rexler being great against Whisper or Echo.

I think people aren't giving flechette cannon /D enough of a fair shake. It's one point cheaper than an Ion while still doing a damage unlike a tractor. Also against some ships that stress is going to screw them more than a single ion token would, mostly large ships and ships with turrets.

Shuttles and Hound's Tooth's that are in a great position to stop now won't be able too, and that doesn't even count what a stress can do a brobot in a bad position. Your opponent will burn everything to stop that stress if it means they can't s-loop next round, which will open them up for your primary.

When I was playing a bunch of squads with Double Deltas, I seemed to have better luck with Flechettes than with Ions. At the time, it seemed like every other match was against Brobots so the stress to keep them from K-Turning or S-Looping and being able to turn off Advanced Sensors was pretty nice.

I think people aren't giving flechette cannon /D enough of a fair shake. It's one point cheaper than an Ion while still doing a damage unlike a tractor. Also against some ships that stress is going to screw them more than a single ion token would, mostly large ships and ships with turrets.

Shuttles and Hound's Tooth's that are in a great position to stop now won't be able too, and that doesn't even count what a stress can do a brobot in a bad position. Your opponent will burn everything to stop that stress if it means they can't s-loop next round, which will open them up for your primary.

Thing is it won't impact any ace using PTL or SoT but the ion always will.

But if you're short on points that extra damage is nothing to sniff at.

I think people aren't giving flechette cannon /D enough of a fair shake. It's one point cheaper than an Ion while still doing a damage unlike a tractor. Also against some ships that stress is going to screw them more than a single ion token would, mostly large ships and ships with turrets.

Shuttles and Hound's Tooth's that are in a great position to stop now won't be able too, and that doesn't even count what a stress can do a brobot in a bad position. Your opponent will burn everything to stop that stress if it means they can't s-loop next round, which will open them up for your primary.

Thing is it won't impact any ace using PTL or SoT but the ion always will.

But if you're short on points that extra damage is nothing to sniff at.

This describes my general dislike of Flechette Cannon and Tractor Beam. They can be very, very good, but they're good against only a slice of opposing ships. If you find that your squad is especially bad against those matchups, they're a reasonable choice. My preference for Ion Cannon is that it's an effect that's strong against everything.

I think people aren't giving flechette cannon /D enough of a fair shake. It's one point cheaper than an Ion while still doing a damage unlike a tractor. Also against some ships that stress is going to screw them more than a single ion token would, mostly large ships and ships with turrets.

Shuttles and Hound's Tooth's that are in a great position to stop now won't be able too, and that doesn't even count what a stress can do a brobot in a bad position. Your opponent will burn everything to stop that stress if it means they can't s-loop next round, which will open them up for your primary.

Thing is it won't impact any ace using PTL or SoT but the ion always will.

But if you're short on points that extra damage is nothing to sniff at.

This describes my general dislike of Flechette Cannon and Tractor Beam. They can be very, very good, but they're good against only a slice of opposing ships. If you find that your squad is especially bad against those matchups, they're a reasonable choice. My preference for Ion Cannon is that it's an effect that's strong against everything.

There are only two ships that aren't affected by Tractor Beam, though. Especially on a Defender (and especially especially on Vessery), I don't think you're using it for the forced movement--you're using it to set up extra damage for your second shot and for the rest of your list.

There are only two ships that aren't affected by Tractor Beam, though. Especially on a Defender (and especially especially on Vessery), I don't think you're using it for the forced movement--you're using it to set up extra damage for your second shot and for the rest of your list.

My thought on that is that the extra damage from the AGI drop of the Tractor Beam is substantially better when you've already got a lot of guns lined up on a target. If you've got a lot of guns lined up on a target, you're already in good shape. Tractor Beam is a card that makes your good situation even better. Ion Cannon is the weapon that lets you set up the first situation. Tractor Beam is also strongest at the beginning, when you've more ships to make use of its effect. Ion Cannon is strong at the beginning, but even stronger at the end, where it can control a larger fraction of the opposing ships.

Take two defenders, one with tractor one with ion.

Fire the one with the tractor first to lower agility so the second's ion is more likely to land. Not only improves damage but improves the odds of setting up to the next round. Not that important on squishy ships but things like Bwings, Bombers, or Kwings are so tanky you might need that 2nd round.

Double ion isnt that effective unless its against a large ship anyway. Reduced agility, especially against before mentioned tanky small ships, will cripple more than double ion lol

I think people aren't giving flechette cannon /D enough of a fair shake. It's one point cheaper than an Ion while still doing a damage unlike a tractor. Also against some ships that stress is going to screw them more than a single ion token would, mostly large ships and ships with turrets.

I agree that the popularity of PTL pretty much removes this from competitive play.

There are only two ships that aren't affected by Tractor Beam, though. Especially on a Defender (and especially especially on Vessery), I don't think you're using it for the forced movement--you're using it to set up extra damage for your second shot and for the rest of your list.

My thought on that is that the extra damage from the AGI drop of the Tractor Beam is substantially better when you've already got a lot of guns lined up on a target. If you've got a lot of guns lined up on a target, you're already in good shape. Tractor Beam is a card that makes your good situation even better. Ion Cannon is the weapon that lets you set up the first situation. Tractor Beam is also strongest at the beginning, when you've more ships to make use of its effect. Ion Cannon is strong at the beginning, but even stronger at the end, where it can control a larger fraction of the opposing ships.

I agree with Vorpal in that there are a number of times when you really want to reduce their Agility over an Ion. If the rest of your list has a fair number of 2 Attack die ships, it can make a big difference. Bro Bots have 3 Agility. There are also a ton of ships that have 2 Agility. Even 1 Agility being reduced helps get more damage through. Range bonus on ships can be negated, as well. What about Poe? If you are able to hit him with a Tractor Beam, his special ability isn't nearly as impressive. He's also quite popular, as well.

It does mostly depend on the rest of your list and what you are flying against. If it's a large based ship, the single Ion shot might not do much for that round. In the right situation, that Tractor Beam will increase the damage potential quite a bit.

Oh, and Auto Thrusters are less effective when rolling 1 less die.

There is that too. Autothrusters with fewer dice becomes less likely to work.

No idea how many times thats irritated me when Soontir rolls all focus and i already used the focus last attack. Ughh lol

Is PTL still popular? I see it on Inquisitor, of course, and the Trando party bus doesnt care, but Omega Leader, Vader, VI Vessery? Not to mention jumpmasters... I thin the flechette might be starting to move back to being a viable option.

Is PTL still popular? I see it on Inquisitor, of course, and the Trando party bus doesnt care, but Omega Leader, Vader, VI Vessery? Not to mention jumpmasters... I thin the flechette might be starting to move back to being a viable option.

I'll grant that Flechette Cannon is worth keeping an eye on.

i put it on pretty much any TIE interceptor, soontir or not.

If running bareboned glaives/ryad with TIE/x7 and no supporting ship to give them free stuff, i could see it on them. Long as they have Mk2 engines, stress isnt that huge a deal. Especially for Ryad...2-5green kturns ftw

Is PTL still popular? I see it on Inquisitor, of course, and the Trando party bus doesnt care, but Omega Leader, Vader, VI Vessery? Not to mention jumpmasters... I thin the flechette might be starting to move back to being a viable option.

I'll grant that Flechette Cannon is worth keeping an eye on.

i put it on pretty much any TIE interceptor, soontir or not.

Also, Dengar, Dash, Poe, and I'm sure there are more.

OK...maybe not all of those are netlists, but hey....I'm a Casual guy.

There are only two ships that aren't affected by Tractor Beam, though. Especially on a Defender (and especially especially on Vessery), I don't think you're using it for the forced movement--you're using it to set up extra damage for your second shot and for the rest of your list.

My thought on that is that the extra damage from the AGI drop of the Tractor Beam is substantially better when you've already got a lot of guns lined up on a target. If you've got a lot of guns lined up on a target, you're already in good shape. Tractor Beam is a card that makes your good situation even better. Ion Cannon is the weapon that lets you set up the first situation. Tractor Beam is also strongest at the beginning, when you've more ships to make use of its effect. Ion Cannon is strong at the beginning, but even stronger at the end, where it can control a larger fraction of the opposing ships.

I did some rudimentary math on this at some point, but if you have a tractor beam and are hoping the result is to take advantage of the negative agility, you start out having to make up for the damage you've lost by not having an ion cannon (or flechette). I think I figured that you needed to have three ships firing after the tractor beam for it to be better than just doing the initial damage, which is very tough to do in a defender list. If you're in position to take advantage of the ship's loss of agility, you should be in just as good or a better position to take advantage of the current shot AND ion shot's following turn if you need it by blocking and setting up more shots.

There are only two ships that aren't affected by Tractor Beam, though. Especially on a Defender (and especially especially on Vessery), I don't think you're using it for the forced movement--you're using it to set up extra damage for your second shot and for the rest of your list.

My thought on that is that the extra damage from the AGI drop of the Tractor Beam is substantially better when you've already got a lot of guns lined up on a target. If you've got a lot of guns lined up on a target, you're already in good shape. Tractor Beam is a card that makes your good situation even better. Ion Cannon is the weapon that lets you set up the first situation. Tractor Beam is also strongest at the beginning, when you've more ships to make use of its effect. Ion Cannon is strong at the beginning, but even stronger at the end, where it can control a larger fraction of the opposing ships.

I did some rudimentary math on this at some point, but if you have a tractor beam and are hoping the result is to take advantage of the negative agility, you start out having to make up for the damage you've lost by not having an ion cannon (or flechette). I think I figured that you needed to have three ships firing after the tractor beam for it to be better than just doing the initial damage, which is very tough to do in a defender list. If you're in position to take advantage of the ship's loss of agility, you should be in just as good or a better position to take advantage of the current shot AND ion shot's following turn if you need it by blocking and setting up more shots.

It depends on the defenses of the target ship, but it'll be fairly typical to need 3 = ceiling[(3/8)^(-1)] attacks after the Tractor Beam shot. That's three shots, though, not three ships--which isn't that hard when you consider the ship carrying the TB is the first shot.

I did some rudimentary math on this at some point, but if you have a tractor beam and are hoping the result is to take advantage of the negative agilty, you start out having to make up for the damage you've lost with an ion cannon. I think I figured that you needed to have three ships firing after the tractor beam for it to be better than just doing the initial damage, which is very tough to do in a defender list. If you're in position to take advantage of the ship's loss of agility, you should be in just as good or a better position to take advantage of the current shot AND ion shot's following turn if you need it by blocking and setting up more shots.

You have to consider the cost as well. Ion costs 3 points vs only 1 point for a tractor beam, so even if with no additional follow-on attackers (just that TIE/D's follow-on primary attack), the tractor beam can still end up having a higher jousting efficiency than the Ion Cannon.

That said, the value of the ion token vs the tractor beam's boost forward / barrel goes above and beyond the jousting discussion. I'm still up in the air on which is worth more, but it is dependent on the situation. Ion has some really obvious value, but tractor beam in a dense asteroid field is almost as debilitating.

There is no new Tie Defenders? Not yet!

I agree that it's situational. I do think, though, that if the rest of your list consists of 2 attack die Tie Fighters, that it is a fast improvement on their damage output if their target is -1 Agility. You can get a lot more than 3 Tie Fighters into a list with a Tie Defender /D.

With these new Defenders on the horizon I'm going to sell my stocks in Incom. I have s feeling thier products aren't going to be getting much Fly-time.

Though, seriously, how will rebel regen do against defenders?

Probably just as well as always. Even assuming both shots hit, he'll just pick a shield back up next turn with R5P9. R2D2 will suffer if you get the Ion to hit. But I rarely see him these days anyway.

There are only two ships that aren't affected by Tractor Beam, though. Especially on a Defender (and especially especially on Vessery), I don't think you're using it for the forced movement--you're using it to set up extra damage for your second shot and for the rest of your list.

My thought on that is that the extra damage from the AGI drop of the Tractor Beam is substantially better when you've already got a lot of guns lined up on a target. If you've got a lot of guns lined up on a target, you're already in good shape. Tractor Beam is a card that makes your good situation even better. Ion Cannon is the weapon that lets you set up the first situation. Tractor Beam is also strongest at the beginning, when you've more ships to make use of its effect. Ion Cannon is strong at the beginning, but even stronger at the end, where it can control a larger fraction of the opposing ships.

I did some rudimentary math on this at some point, but if you have a tractor beam and are hoping the result is to take advantage of the negative agility, you start out having to make up for the damage you've lost by not having an ion cannon (or flechette). I think I figured that you needed to have three ships firing after the tractor beam for it to be better than just doing the initial damage, which is very tough to do in a defender list. If you're in position to take advantage of the ship's loss of agility, you should be in just as good or a better position to take advantage of the current shot AND ion shot's following turn if you need it by blocking and setting up more shots.

It depends on the defenses of the target ship, but it'll be fairly typical to need 3 = ceiling[(3/8)^(-1)] attacks after the Tractor Beam shot. That's three shots, though, not three ships--which isn't that hard when you consider the ship carrying the TB is the first shot.

Agreed "ships" was simply an imprecise way to describe shots. I do think, in a list where you are paying 40+ points for one ship, it will be a challenge to get consistently those additional shots.

I did some rudimentary math on this at some point, but if you have a tractor beam and are hoping the result is to take advantage of the negative agilty, you start out having to make up for the damage you've lost with an ion cannon. I think I figured that you needed to have three ships firing after the tractor beam for it to be better than just doing the initial damage, which is very tough to do in a defender list. If you're in position to take advantage of the ship's loss of agility, you should be in just as good or a better position to take advantage of the current shot AND ion shot's following turn if you need it by blocking and setting up more shots.

You have to consider the cost as well. Ion costs 3 points vs only 1 point for a tractor beam, so even if with no additional follow-on attackers (just that TIE/D's follow-on primary attack), the tractor beam can still end up having a higher jousting efficiency than the Ion Cannon.

That said, the value of the ion token vs the tractor beam's boost forward / barrel goes above and beyond the jousting discussion. I'm still up in the air on which is worth more, but it is dependent on the situation. Ion has some really obvious value, but tractor beam in a dense asteroid field is almost as debilitating.

Completely agree on both points and I tend to agree that the positional advantage is going to be a bigger deal with TB but my original response was pointed more at the idea of -1 agility being more valuable. I see the point about tractor beam "outjousting" the ion because of the point cost, but the ion cannon's effect adds benefits the following turn more consistently.

For example, in playing vets for the first time, I had a Rexlar Brath Ion D version vs. a standard VI Poe in the endgame. Poe was full up but Brath was damaged. I managed to get an ion shot through on Poe, K-turned and then the game was over because he could not escape.

All that said, I think if TB was going to be a the choice on the defender we already seem some strong lists with it as is. I think that the ion cannon is always useful because at the very least it adds damage, where the tractor beam is much more situational.

One can get 5 academy TIES with a single TIE/D tractor defender.

Not sure if i like that idea though. Its rather difficult to get 6 ships to have a bead on the same target more than once (after the initial joust its rather hard to keep them bunched up due to debris or lack of a proper turn). Also leaves you wide open to Assault Missiles lol...which i ended up making my local meta start bringing one if they can because i routinely run 2-3 TIEs in a miniswarm that do work.

why would you put PTL on a defender and NOT the Mk2 engines?

I understand Ryad can green Kturn 2-5 but that wont help if you need to turn a little and not k-turn.

A few things:

1) Ryad's ability gives you flexibility: you can go straight, then barrel roll or boost (or both) to keep targets in arc. Or you can flip and do the same. Its effectively the same as being a turret because you can point your guns in any direction on the battlefield at any time.

2) If you REALLY need to make a hard turn (and you are planning your moves in advance) then you don't have to use push the limit (although this will be rarely necessary, maybe once or twice a game if that). This is easier to do with X-7, since the 3 hard turn gives you the free evade.

3) Ryad with engine NEVER needs to bank. You just don't. Your straights 2 - 5 coupled with the occasional 3 hard turn are literally all she needs to face any direction and keep guns on target. A 5k turn + boost is effectively the same as a 1 bank except you are on the opposite side of your target, for example. Don't believe me? Try it and you'll see.

Yes it gives you more flexibility to aim at your target, but you become SO much predictable. And you basically have to use an action to turn/aim, which kinda defeat the purpose of PTL.

With Mk2, yes you need to be smarter and know where to go, but at least you can use PTL to TL+Focus.

I didn't want to start a new topic, so apologies if this derails a little bit.

What I'm curious about, is what will happen to the old Jonus Brothers list? HLC's won't be taken by the generics anymore, but cannons with /D's are still going to be common. Here is my initial take on it:

Captain Jonus (22)
Tactician (2)
TIE Shuttle (0)

Glaive Squadron Pilot (34)
Crack Shot (1)
Ion Cannon (3)
TIE/D (0)

Glaive Squadron Pilot (34)
Crack Shot (1)
Ion Cannon (3)
TIE/D (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The cheaper cannons allow a significant bump in PS, along with allowing Crack Shot. Also, Capt Jonus can take a Tactician to further increase your level of control on the field.