If I'm running against standard arc ships, I go Echo since he's amazing at getting behind ships. If there's going to be anything with a 360 arc, I go Whisper or just don't fly a Phantom at all.

Honestly I would call echo more powerful than whisper if that 1 point of pilot skill wasn't so life or death for phantoms. Since pilot skill is significantly less important to comparing defenders I would likewise call defender echo stronger than defender whisper.

And one last thing to throw into the Ryad vs Vessery debate: if it's your last ship, which one do you choose? I pick Ryad every time, she can out 1 on 1 pretty much any ship. So there's value in that too.

And one last thing to throw into the Ryad vs Vessery debate: if it's your last ship, which one do you choose? I pick Ryad every time, she can out 1 on 1 pretty much any ship. So there's value in that too.

Against another PS 8 or lower Acewing? Vessery with engine upgrade and VI.

Having played against (and with) both, ryad is absolutely the scarier finisher as your last ship. vessery will have focus/evade if he's got x7, or focus or tl if he has tie/d (meaning he can only modify one attack). And if he wants to boost or barrel roll, he now has 0 attack modifiers, and only an evade for defense (if hes x7). If he has a focus and shoots first (and uses it) he now has (maybe) an evade as his only defensive modifier. If he doesnt spend it (to save for defense, or used it n defense before he got to shoot), he now has no offensive modifier. Ryad with ptl/x7/mk2 will have focus/evade every single round, and tl any round shes in range and doesnt need to barrel roll. Now youre trying to kill 6 health through a fovus/evade every round with 1 ship, and even if she spends both tokens on defense she STILL has a tl for

Shooting back

I'm in general uncertain that trying to force Vessery to be an 'acewing' ship is even a good idea. Sure you can put vi+engine on him but with 1 action I'll be shocked if he can arc dodge and defenders aren't really well suited to arc dodging in general due to their basic pattern of using a kturn as often as possible; they just fly so differently than other arc dodging 'acewingers' that forcing them into the same shoes seems sketchy. I'm still voting for lone wolf countess with x7 as mvp defender followed by predator Glaive and then Vessery somewhere in 3rd place.

I don't know about putting Vessery 3rd. I'd say these two builds are equally as dangerous for very different reasons. Vess, TIE/D, Crack Shot, Ion, Mk II (40) and Ryad, x7, Outmaneuver, Mk II.

That build with Vess hits like a freight train. With his TL rerolls, I've done 4 damage to a ship in one round multiple times. And because of that, he just eats Z-95s for breakfast. I like to add crackshot because his damage output often gives you the choice of burning the card to kill them outright vs leaving them with 1 hull left. But he can have a bad day if the green dice are not cooperating.

Ryad is harder to hit with the x7, and Outmaneuver combined with her pilot ability make her great at knocking out ships with 3 defense dice like A-wings or Aggressors. A-Wings are a lot less annoying to kill when you make them roll 2 instead of 3 defense dice. Plus she's probably one of the best finishers in the game.

And the nice thing is you can fly both of those builds plus OL with Juke for 99 points. And OL is the perfect TL buddy for Vessery since he doesn't want to use the TL in general.

Trying to turn vess into boostwing strikes me as trying futily to turn the viper into an arcdodger

Just let the superiority fighter joust things to death already

Small change of subject:

One of the Defender archetypes I'm most interested in right now is 2 TIE Defenders + a blocker. It leaves a lot of points for the two Defenders to be generously equipped, and that blocker does some solid work on its own. There's a lot of room to consider things here, though, and I'm interested in the community's thoughts.

Part 1.)

There's about a 100 combinations of pilots that are probably worthwhile, but I'm currently thinking about the blocker. I've messed around with Academy Pilots, Seinar Test Pilots, and Alpha Squadron Pilots, and I've shied away from higher PS because of a desire to have something that blocks U-boats. I'm less concerned about that right now, however, and I'm looking at higher PS options, which opens up some interesting named TIE Fighters. Namely, Wampa (or WAAHMPAAAAH). He can still block Crack Swarms if you take Initiative against them (they usually don't have a bid), and it's still another body that can be in the way of a U-boat, even if it works a bit differently than blocking with an Academy Pilot. Obviously, against aces he still blocks just fine, and brings in a whole different level of effect to the table because of his Pilot Ability. Certainly his utility is a much more significant against aces than against.

Part 2.)

My traditional game with Defenders against aces has been to use an HLC with Predator (or Vessery) to either drive an ace into the guns of different ships or to hit something that was blocked by lesser ships. This changes some with TIE/Ds (it changes even more with x7s). The HLC is a hammer that can batter through the defenses of a lot of ships, even at Range 3 when Autothrusters are in play. TIE/D's are much less impressive at Range 3 because their dice are split over two attacks (and one of those attacks grants the Range 3 AGI bonus), but they are bonkers at Range 1-2, stripping tokens and taking down aces through volume of fire. This offensive profile, I'm finding, gets more from the PS race than the HLC did. HLC liked re-rolls, because it allowed you to generate 4 hits more than half the time you were shooting. TIE/D likes getting into Range 2 or less, and winning the PS bid makes it harder for aces to predict your movement and get into the sweet Range 3 band that TIE/Ds have trouble hitting.

Part 3.) In which Parts 1&2 are considered together.

Wampa throws a wrench into the anti-ace calculus. He's a wild-card that isn't likely to hurt an ace on any given turn, but quite likely (especially for his points) to hurt an ace over several turns. He forces a different sort of consideration from aces than other blockers. Given this effect, is it reasonable to downgrade a PS-bid on a Defender pilot? For example say you've got Maarek with VI. He's a very useful PS9, with a 2 point initiative bid on top of that. The downside is that his shots are largely unmodified, so while he can get more and better shots against aces, they're worse shots against everyone else. With Wampa hanging around, do you trade in that VI and 2 point Initiative bid for Predator. At PS7, you're firmly out of ace territory, but with Predator, you're pounding away on everyone else, and you're still a big threat to aces. With another TIE/D with Predator in the list, as well as Wampa, do you just forgo trying to play the PS game and use the extra threat of Wampa to get 3 ships that can each significantly threaten an enemy ace, leaving it nowhere to run? Does Wampa (and the threat of a target switch) buy you enough time to smoke the Palp Shuttle before too much damage has been sustained by your Defenders? Do you think about Targeting Computer on Wampa to make your odds of crit generation nearer to 50%?

always wanted to fly an imperial prototype pilot (ps 2 TAPs) as a blocker, even if the little guy is horridly expensive @ 17 with just the title. He's no wampa, but that boost is just the bane of every torp scout

a 41 and 42 point pair of defenders seems feasible, and the little guy even farts out target locks for Vessery

I think double defender and a blocker is a composition much more suited to /d than to x7. X7's game against aces as far as I can tell is just grind on them until your ability to zoom and boom eventually wears them down. To this end they're particularly suited to hanging out with either palp to boost their grind or the inquisitor to boost their end game power.

If we then focus on /d options then I think you just don't worry about trying to bid ps and instead work on making a good block with say the ps2 tap and then drowning something with 4 shots, be they ion or tractor or both. Take Maarek with a good ept and Vessery with a good ept and score the block before sinking the value shots. Wampa has fun implications sometimes but gives a weird position of wanting to get shots on aces but also block them. The draw of the ps2 tap is boost and barrel roll natively making it great for any block situation. Plus 4 hp behind 2 shields is nice for not automatically eating errant crits.

sad thing about Tie/d with a blocker is that you can't do the trolly t-beam ruthless Vess because your **** blocker's probably the one getting ruthlessed

I think Wampa goes for the block or the shot depending on board state. When he's closing, go for the shot. When he's in close, go for the block, because it will be trivial to dodge him at Range 1. When you have to K-turn, go for the shot, because the scrum has moved past you. Wampa can also flank or pursue an ace and it's not a joke, as it would be if it was an AP flanking or chasing. I think vs Crack Swarms he's got roughly equal utility to a low PS blocker, and he's a bit worse against Scouts, although as I said before, you can plan your approach a little differently and he can still gum up with works. He's certainly cheaper than the Test Pilot as well.

I'm going to a tournament next month that nothing can be Unique. First thought is triple U-Boats... but I don't wanna be that guy, my second thought was triple defenders, but again I want to be at least a little creative. So I came up with this list:

97 points Pilots ------

Glaive Squadron Pilot (37)

TIE Defender (34), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2), Stealth Device (3)

Royal Guard Pilot (30) x 2

TIE Interceptor (22), Push the Limit (3), Royal Guard TIE (0), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

I've actually had some good success with it on TTS. I did lose horribly versus a guy playing Brobots. Him throwing four dice and then Gunner each time I evade everything kinda is bad when I only have 3 health on the interceptors. But luckily I won't have to play against that list in the tournament. I also really like Juke, if I can shoot with the Glaive first and get rid of their Focus, then my two RGP have two really good shots.

Anyways this list kinda shows that the new titles can really be meshed well with other lists that aren't relying on Palpatine and I think we'll get some more variety soon.

2 defenders and a tie shuttle have done me well.

I think Wampa goes for the block or the shot depending on board state. When he's closing, go for the shot. When he's in close, go for the block, because it will be trivial to dodge him at Range 1. When you have to K-turn, go for the shot, because the scrum has moved past you. Wampa can also flank or pursue an ace and it's not a joke, as it would be if it was an AP flanking or chasing. I think vs Crack Swarms he's got roughly equal utility to a low PS blocker, and he's a bit worse against Scouts, although as I said before, you can plan your approach a little differently and he can still gum up with works. He's certainly cheaper than the Test Pilot as well.

I guess the key is that if you fly Wampa, he's anti-ace tech, both in blocking and in the threat-of-dakka.

So you can afford to (and probably should) build your defenders to win the Scouts matchup instead. Do you think that'd be a viable goal? The Scouts being PS3 is (yet again) one of those little things that irritates; the generic jumpmaster being vulnerable to Predator would have been convenient here.

2 defenders and a tie shuttle have done me well.

I can see that working.

I've considered this little guy to be the ultimate PITA given the current meta:

Scimitar w/ TIE shuttle, Vader crew & engine = 23

Crits aces or failing that, blocks them. Works wonders against Crack Swarms and U-boats alike.

If you want to get extravagant, you can throw rebel captive or mara jade on to multiply the PITA factor...

What about this?

Vess, Tie/D, Ion, crack shot (or VI if you like), Mk II (40)

Ryad, Tie/x7, outmaneuver (or predator if you like), Mk II (36)

Academy Piliot (x2) (12)

That gives you two blockers. If you're going against trip scouts I'd probably lean towards Outmaneuver on Ryad since they often don't even pay attention to where their arc is pointed unless they are trying to get off their ordinance. But I could also see the advantage of only using one blocker and pumping more points into the second Defender. Or maybe use those points to give your blocker and engine upgrade so it can close the distance with the scouts faster.

What about this?

Vess, Tie/D, Ion, crack shot (or VI if you like), Mk II (40)

Ryad, Tie/x7, outmaneuver (or predator if you like), Mk II (36)

Academy Piliot (x2) (12)

That gives you two blockers. If you're going against trip scouts I'd probably lean towards Outmaneuver on Ryad since they often don't even pay attention to where their arc is pointed unless they are trying to get off their ordinance. But I could also see the advantage of only using one blocker and pumping more points into the second Defender. Or maybe use those points to give your blocker and engine upgrade so it can close the distance with the scouts faster.

I have a very similar list that I also want to try

And in a week it won't all be conjecture anymore.

whoops. wrong thread.

Small change of subject:

One of the Defender archetypes I'm most interested in right now is 2 TIE Defenders + a blocker. It leaves a lot of points for the two Defenders to be generously equipped, and that blocker does some solid work on its own. There's a lot of room to consider things here, though, and I'm interested in the community's thoughts.

Part 1.)

There's about a 100 combinations of pilots that are probably worthwhile, but I'm currently thinking about the blocker. I've messed around with Academy Pilots, Seinar Test Pilots, and Alpha Squadron Pilots, and I've shied away from higher PS because of a desire to have something that blocks U-boats. I'm less concerned about that right now, however, and I'm looking at higher PS options, which opens up some interesting named TIE Fighters. Namely, Wampa (or WAAHMPAAAAH). He can still block Crack Swarms if you take Initiative against them (they usually don't have a bid), and it's still another body that can be in the way of a U-boat, even if it works a bit differently than blocking with an Academy Pilot. Obviously, against aces he still blocks just fine, and brings in a whole different level of effect to the table because of his Pilot Ability. Certainly his utility is a much more significant against aces than against.

Part 2.)

My traditional game with Defenders against aces has been to use an HLC with Predator (or Vessery) to either drive an ace into the guns of different ships or to hit something that was blocked by lesser ships. This changes some with TIE/Ds (it changes even more with x7s). The HLC is a hammer that can batter through the defenses of a lot of ships, even at Range 3 when Autothrusters are in play. TIE/D's are much less impressive at Range 3 because their dice are split over two attacks (and one of those attacks grants the Range 3 AGI bonus), but they are bonkers at Range 1-2, stripping tokens and taking down aces through volume of fire. This offensive profile, I'm finding, gets more from the PS race than the HLC did. HLC liked re-rolls, because it allowed you to generate 4 hits more than half the time you were shooting. TIE/D likes getting into Range 2 or less, and winning the PS bid makes it harder for aces to predict your movement and get into the sweet Range 3 band that TIE/Ds have trouble hitting.

Part 3.) In which Parts 1&2 are considered together.

Wampa throws a wrench into the anti-ace calculus. He's a wild-card that isn't likely to hurt an ace on any given turn, but quite likely (especially for his points) to hurt an ace over several turns. He forces a different sort of consideration from aces than other blockers. Given this effect, is it reasonable to downgrade a PS-bid on a Defender pilot? For example say you've got Maarek with VI. He's a very useful PS9, with a 2 point initiative bid on top of that. The downside is that his shots are largely unmodified, so while he can get more and better shots against aces, they're worse shots against everyone else. With Wampa hanging around, do you trade in that VI and 2 point Initiative bid for Predator. At PS7, you're firmly out of ace territory, but with Predator, you're pounding away on everyone else, and you're still a big threat to aces. With another TIE/D with Predator in the list, as well as Wampa, do you just forgo trying to play the PS game and use the extra threat of Wampa to get 3 ships that can each significantly threaten an enemy ace, leaving it nowhere to run? Does Wampa (and the threat of a target switch) buy you enough time to smoke the Palp Shuttle before too much damage has been sustained by your Defenders? Do you think about Targeting Computer on Wampa to make your odds of crit generation nearer to 50%?

If you have 23 points I'd take Deathfire + Conner + EM

Blocking at PS3 + anti ace tech

TIE Shuttle with Intel Agent plus other irritating crew of choice? Vader? Tactician? Even the mediocre Mara Jade should work on a dedicated blocker.

Small change of subject:

One of the Defender archetypes I'm most interested in right now is 2 TIE Defenders + a blocker. It leaves a lot of points for the two Defenders to be generously equipped, and that blocker does some solid work on its own. There's a lot of room to consider things here, though, and I'm interested in the community's thoughts.

Part 1.)

There's about a 100 combinations of pilots that are probably worthwhile, but I'm currently thinking about the blocker. I've messed around with Academy Pilots, Seinar Test Pilots, and Alpha Squadron Pilots, and I've shied away from higher PS because of a desire to have something that blocks U-boats. I'm less concerned about that right now, however, and I'm looking at higher PS options, which opens up some interesting named TIE Fighters. Namely, Wampa (or WAAHMPAAAAH). He can still block Crack Swarms if you take Initiative against them (they usually don't have a bid), and it's still another body that can be in the way of a U-boat, even if it works a bit differently than blocking with an Academy Pilot. Obviously, against aces he still blocks just fine, and brings in a whole different level of effect to the table because of his Pilot Ability. Certainly his utility is a much more significant against aces than against.

Part 2.)

My traditional game with Defenders against aces has been to use an HLC with Predator (or Vessery) to either drive an ace into the guns of different ships or to hit something that was blocked by lesser ships. This changes some with TIE/Ds (it changes even more with x7s). The HLC is a hammer that can batter through the defenses of a lot of ships, even at Range 3 when Autothrusters are in play. TIE/D's are much less impressive at Range 3 because their dice are split over two attacks (and one of those attacks grants the Range 3 AGI bonus), but they are bonkers at Range 1-2, stripping tokens and taking down aces through volume of fire. This offensive profile, I'm finding, gets more from the PS race than the HLC did. HLC liked re-rolls, because it allowed you to generate 4 hits more than half the time you were shooting. TIE/D likes getting into Range 2 or less, and winning the PS bid makes it harder for aces to predict your movement and get into the sweet Range 3 band that TIE/Ds have trouble hitting.

Part 3.) In which Parts 1&2 are considered together.

Wampa throws a wrench into the anti-ace calculus. He's a wild-card that isn't likely to hurt an ace on any given turn, but quite likely (especially for his points) to hurt an ace over several turns. He forces a different sort of consideration from aces than other blockers. Given this effect, is it reasonable to downgrade a PS-bid on a Defender pilot? For example say you've got Maarek with VI. He's a very useful PS9, with a 2 point initiative bid on top of that. The downside is that his shots are largely unmodified, so while he can get more and better shots against aces, they're worse shots against everyone else. With Wampa hanging around, do you trade in that VI and 2 point Initiative bid for Predator. At PS7, you're firmly out of ace territory, but with Predator, you're pounding away on everyone else, and you're still a big threat to aces. With another TIE/D with Predator in the list, as well as Wampa, do you just forgo trying to play the PS game and use the extra threat of Wampa to get 3 ships that can each significantly threaten an enemy ace, leaving it nowhere to run? Does Wampa (and the threat of a target switch) buy you enough time to smoke the Palp Shuttle before too much damage has been sustained by your Defenders? Do you think about Targeting Computer on Wampa to make your odds of crit generation nearer to 50%?

2x Glaive/ Ryad, each with x7 and Juke.

Delta Squadron with x7 and Engine Upgrade as your blocker/just solid in general 3rd ship. The ability to 5 straight and boost or white 4k and boost should be pretty good at blocking and should you just need more guns he can contribute to the fight unlike a naked TAP or Academy could.

I do love me some Alpha Squadrons with Autothrusters though.

Small change of subject:

One of the Defender archetypes I'm most interested in right now is 2 TIE Defenders + a blocker. It leaves a lot of points for the two Defenders to be generously equipped, and that blocker does some solid work on its own. There's a lot of room to consider things here, though, and I'm interested in the community's thoughts.

Part 1.)

There's about a 100 combinations of pilots that are probably worthwhile, but I'm currently thinking about the blocker. I've messed around with Academy Pilots, Seinar Test Pilots, and Alpha Squadron Pilots, and I've shied away from higher PS because of a desire to have something that blocks U-boats. I'm less concerned about that right now, however, and I'm looking at higher PS options, which opens up some interesting named TIE Fighters. Namely, Wampa (or WAAHMPAAAAH). He can still block Crack Swarms if you take Initiative against them (they usually don't have a bid), and it's still another body that can be in the way of a U-boat, even if it works a bit differently than blocking with an Academy Pilot. Obviously, against aces he still blocks just fine, and brings in a whole different level of effect to the table because of his Pilot Ability. Certainly his utility is a much more significant against aces than against.

Part 2.)

My traditional game with Defenders against aces has been to use an HLC with Predator (or Vessery) to either drive an ace into the guns of different ships or to hit something that was blocked by lesser ships. This changes some with TIE/Ds (it changes even more with x7s). The HLC is a hammer that can batter through the defenses of a lot of ships, even at Range 3 when Autothrusters are in play. TIE/D's are much less impressive at Range 3 because their dice are split over two attacks (and one of those attacks grants the Range 3 AGI bonus), but they are bonkers at Range 1-2, stripping tokens and taking down aces through volume of fire. This offensive profile, I'm finding, gets more from the PS race than the HLC did. HLC liked re-rolls, because it allowed you to generate 4 hits more than half the time you were shooting. TIE/D likes getting into Range 2 or less, and winning the PS bid makes it harder for aces to predict your movement and get into the sweet Range 3 band that TIE/Ds have trouble hitting.

Part 3.) In which Parts 1&2 are considered together.

Wampa throws a wrench into the anti-ace calculus. He's a wild-card that isn't likely to hurt an ace on any given turn, but quite likely (especially for his points) to hurt an ace over several turns. He forces a different sort of consideration from aces than other blockers. Given this effect, is it reasonable to downgrade a PS-bid on a Defender pilot? For example say you've got Maarek with VI. He's a very useful PS9, with a 2 point initiative bid on top of that. The downside is that his shots are largely unmodified, so while he can get more and better shots against aces, they're worse shots against everyone else. With Wampa hanging around, do you trade in that VI and 2 point Initiative bid for Predator. At PS7, you're firmly out of ace territory, but with Predator, you're pounding away on everyone else, and you're still a big threat to aces. With another TIE/D with Predator in the list, as well as Wampa, do you just forgo trying to play the PS game and use the extra threat of Wampa to get 3 ships that can each significantly threaten an enemy ace, leaving it nowhere to run? Does Wampa (and the threat of a target switch) buy you enough time to smoke the Palp Shuttle before too much damage has been sustained by your Defenders? Do you think about Targeting Computer on Wampa to make your odds of crit generation nearer to 50%?

I'm at a similar place right now, where I've been looking at two different lists that I think I'd like to get more used to. Firstly, there's my Vessery/Ryad/Test Pilot build:

Vessery w/ VI, Tractor Beam, TIE/D, Engine Upgrade

Sienar Test Pilot w/ Ion Pulse Missiles, TIE/v1 and Autothrusters

Countess Ryad w/ Juke, TIE/x7 and Twin Ion Engine MkII

Grand total of 98 pts

Originally, I had Ryad with Predator, but I wanted to try out the Juke/x7 combo with this list. I've had moderate success with the "predator version", although I sometimes struglle with getting Vessery in good positions for that damage output to really pay off. The Test Pilot is a fairly reasonable good blocker/annoyance.

On the other hand, because I love Interceptors, I saw a list (think it was around the forum somewhere) with Two Glaives w/ Juke and TIE x/7 + Carnor Jax with Ptl and Autothrusters. In this case, more than "just" a blocker, Carnor can be a serious threat on its own (albeit a squishy one) and would potentially make the opponent think twice about either focusing on the pair of Glaives or going for the royal guard.

I was thinking about bringing this to a store tournament tomorrow but, honestly, I'm still a bit undecided and might go back to the first one at the very last minute...