but all Defenders are going to take a very different mindset than aces

This is the point that some people just refuse to see.

Turns out you were wrong, Bio. Sorry.

I'm not actually sure he won't be largely correct. I wrote this analysis from the point of view of someone who has played these ships a lot. They're my go-to ship, so I pretty much see upside. From the point of view of someone who runs aces (of various stripes), there will be a different sort of analysis as to what is worth replacing with what. I think everyone can agree that Vessery will be top notch, simply because he's got so much brute force, but all Defenders are going to take a very different mindset than aces, and so it might take more convincing for them to gain traction with playerswith players that are unfamiliar with them.

Also, I've mostly looked at how the meta affects Defenders, with a little bit about which direction the Defenders will push the meta in turn. PGS is discussing magnitude of the change. It's quite possible that we're both right.

I don't really see what the advantage of running a Defender over the Inquisitor or Soontir or any of the other Acewings. Vessery is in, Maarek has some synergy with Palpatine, Ryad with PtL is a lesser Vessery but still in I guess.

I can see Acewing Acewing Defender, or Defender Acewing Palp Shuttle. Triple Defender will be good, but not as good as subbing out one Defender for the Inquisitor. And Defender Defender Inquisitor won't be as good as Palp Aces with Inquisitor and Vessery.

A Juke X7 Glaive is cool and all, but what advantage does it have over the Inquisitor? Pilot skill? Reactive boost and barrel rolls? Autothrusters?

Turns out you were wrong, Bio. Sorry.

I'm not actually sure he won't be largely correct. I wrote this analysis from the point of view of someone who has played these ships a lot. They're my go-to ship, so I pretty much see upside. From the point of view of someone who runs aces (of various stripes), there will be a different sort of analysis as to what is worth replacing with what. I think everyone can agree that Vessery will be top notch, simply because he's got so much brute force, but all Defenders are going to take a very different mindset than aces, and so it might take more convincing for them to gain traction with playerswith players that are unfamiliar with them.

Also, I've mostly looked at how the meta affects Defenders, with a little bit about which direction the Defenders will push the meta in turn. PGS is discussing magnitude of the change. It's quite possible that we're both right.

I don't really see what the advantage of running a Defender over the Inquisitor or Soontir or any of the other Acewings. Vessery is in, Maarek has some synergy with Palpatine, Ryad with PtL is a lesser Vessery but still in I guess.

I can see Acewing Acewing Defender, or Defender Acewing Palp Shuttle. Triple Defender will be good, but not as good as subbing out one Defender for the Inquisitor. And Defender Defender Inquisitor won't be as good as Palp Aces with Inquisitor and Vessery.

A Juke X7 Glaive is cool and all, but what advantage does it have over the Inquisitor? Pilot skill? Reactive boost and barrel rolls? Autothrusters?

Juke on a Glaive is not a great idea, imho. I mean it CAN work, but its too situational to be great. Crack shot is far better

Defenders have 2 very BIG advantages over an ace of similar cost: durability and 'time on target' (being able to keep guns pointed at enemies and rolling attack dice).

With palp aces and u-boats rising in popularity, more and more players are turning to Crack Swarm as an answer. Low hull aces just die to crack swarm (assuming two players of fairly equal skill). Defenders last longer. Long enough to make it impossible for the swarm to kill them once the crack runs out. There has to be a significant error on the part of the defender player to lose that matchup, imho. There's other things too: autoblaster ghosts, vader crew, conner nets and sabine crew----Defenders have a huge edge over aces in all these matchups.

Time on Target matters less, admittedly, because palp aces doesn't need a lot of time on target to win (palpatine helps that a lot). But against better players who are able to make arc-dodging extremely difficult, so that its very hard to keep aces pointed at enemies AND not also have a significant risk of taking damage in return. Defenders do not have that same issue (at least not until they're down to 1-2 hull) so you can fly them far more aggressively and not just outright lose if the dice result in a single really bad turn for you.

Once you get a slight damage lead with defenders, its very easy to 'snowball' it. The white k-turn really shines here. What I try to do is set up multiple lanes of approach and create that zone where your defenders can k-turn multiple times in a row. I can honestly say that any game where I've managed to set that up has been victory for me (not a lot of players know how to escape it). Even if you can't set it up because the opponent is smart----well, you just have to stick with the aggressive nature of the Defender. Engage at R1 vs aces always. Force them to choose between trade 4 attack shots with you or dodge arc (and lose their shot----its all in getting the right angle and predicting where the boost/BR can take the ace). Aces don't have the durability to match the lower PS defender over and over again (and next turn the Defender k-turns grabs a TL and saves it for the next R1 shot)

Inquisitor is really strong, no doubt, and there's not a lot of Defender options that sub into 31 points very well in a vacuum. I think blade_mercurial's triple Onyx list is an example of how it works in a list, though. Triple Onyx can stick together and combine their firepower very well, but the Inquisitor doesn't really want to move the same way, so he needs to be broken off. I don't think DDI is a bad squad or anything, it just plays differently, and depending on how you want to play, you might sub in the tougher x7 Defender over the Inquisitor.

I can always count on blade_mercurial to say it better than me.

I can always count on blade_mercurial to say it better than me.

No way, man! You write far better articles! I just build on what you start

I can always count on blade_mercurial to say it better than me.

No way, man! You write far better articles! I just build on what you start

At this point everybody should be informed that blade_mercurial is rocking face with new Defenders in the Deep Core Vassal league, and I'm putzing around with T70s in local tournaments. He is very much the last word in this category.

if i can make Juke work on a PS3 Awing consistantly, it will work on a PS6 defender. Defenders will pretty much always have 1 evade 1 focus with the x7 title, possibly more depending on support you bring. With 3/4 dice and a focus and proper flying its pretty easy to still use that juke.

From the point of view of someone who runs aces (of various stripes), there will be a different sort of analysis as to what is worth replacing with what. I think everyone can agree that Vessery will be top notch, simply because he's got so much brute force, but all Defenders are going to take a very different mindset than aces, and so it might take more convincing for them to gain traction with playerswith players that are unfamiliar with them.

I think those of us who have loved and played the Defender from the beginning and damned the cost forget that not everyone knows how to fly them. I mean they take a lot more thought and finesse than their dial strengths would indicate.

Considering the terror bestowed by x7 Deltas I am rightfully jazzed for Juke Glaives. They're going to eat generic pilots alive.

Considering the terror bestowed by x7 Deltas I am rightfully jazzed for Juke Glaives. They're going to eat generic pilots alive.[/q

Inquisitor is really strong, no doubt, and there's not a lot of Defender options that sub into 31 points very well in a vacuum. I think blade_mercurial's triple Onyx list is an example of how it works in a list, though. Triple Onyx can stick together and combine their firepower very well, but the Inquisitor doesn't really want to move the same way, so he needs to be broken off. I don't think DDI is a bad squad or anything, it just plays differently, and depending on how you want to play, you might sub in the tougher x7 Defender over the Inquisitor.

The thing is that the Inquisitor is tougher than a Defender. He has Autothrusters, and reactive boost and BR. He's also stronger offensively, disabling enemy Autothrusters and the range 3 bonus die.

I don't see why you can't make an Acewing out of a Defender. EU and VI on X7 Vessery with an initiative bid makes it so that he moves last. Being able to boost is so important, and you have the beef to take a stray shot, so if you're in multiple arcs you could boost to minimize incoming shots.

Then you just tack on a Palp Shuttle and there you go. 98 points. Vessery has the TL Evade Focus stack going most turns, Inquisitor has the same stack going, Palpatine is buffing like crazy, and the shuttle's weapon itself whenever it can.

Maybe I was a little too dismissive of triple Defender, as triple TIE/D Ion Cannon Deltas seems nice as would the Onyx variant with Tractor Beam, but at PS 1 and 3 they can be arc dodged. With no defensive tech besides for their nice statline they can be focused down. Triple X7's get the defensive tech, but against a Palp Aces with an Ace Defender in it, they don't have the firepower to punch through. The Palp Aces player has defensive abilities that exceed the triple x7 player, and when Palpatine can be used on offense you have offenses that exceed theirs.

Focus + Evade + Defensive Palpatine + 3-4 agility on a 6 health ship is very strong.

Boosting with Vessery to close to range 1 instead of staying put and focusing means you're throwing 4 dice now. With your TL ability, you're probably getting 3 hits. Palpatine allows you to constantly max out your rolls as hit hit (hit) Crit.

You try to fit the Defender into your understanding. Which is fine. If you are limited to one way to view a ship, go ahead. But just because that is how you think a ship should be run, doesn't make it so. Don't be surprised if other builds do better, because those players understand the ship better. The art of the fish tail is a wonderful thing.

I look forward to seeing how all the defensive power of Palpatine works against the offensive power of Vessery.

From the point of view of someone who runs aces (of various stripes), there will be a different sort of analysis as to what is worth replacing with what. I think everyone can agree that Vessery will be top notch, simply because he's got so much brute force, but all Defenders are going to take a very different mindset than aces, and so it might take more convincing for them to gain traction with playerswith players that are unfamiliar with them.

I think those of us who have loved and played the Defender from the beginning and damned the cost forget that not everyone knows how to fly them. I mean they take a lot more thought and finesse than their dial strengths would indicate.

That's true I've lost count of how often my wins with defenders have been dismissed as local opponents just being poor players instead of recognizing its they who were using the ship wrong.

I've tried to change opinion on the defender since wave four it's been a long slog but I'm glad I'm no longer the lone nutter shouting into the wind.

I've had so much success flying a Defender, Omega Leader, Inquisitor list recently and fir the mist wart ut was ne just putting it down to luck/other players nit being used to the Defender, but I really think it's more than that.

With the right squadmates and flying the Defenders are incredibly hard to pin down and really hit like a truck, especially the hlc Vessery I use just now. Rely looking forward to trying the Tie/D and Ion/Tractor beam on him.

All ps8 lists work well with TB vessery he can really open up a target for others.

The Vessery/Inquisitor combo is very powerful, but it can only apply its power against ships that move before it. The difference between V/I shooting with the Inquisitor's TL and without is 2 TLs and an Evade token.

The Inquisitor is also only tougher and punchier than the Defender at Range 3. The closer you get to a target, the nastier the Defender gets. If your hardest matchup is against PS9, Inquisitor won't do as much, and can go down fast. An x7 will hang around with its buddies and keep shrugging off damage and K-turning to j keep the pressure on a high PS ace.

From the point of view of someone who runs aces (of various stripes), there will be a different sort of analysis as to what is worth replacing with what. I think everyone can agree that Vessery will be top notch, simply because he's got so much brute force, but all Defenders are going to take a very different mindset than aces, and so it might take more convincing for them to gain traction with playerswith players that are unfamiliar with them.

I think those of us who have loved and played the Defender from the beginning and damned the cost forget that not everyone knows how to fly them. I mean they take a lot more thought and finesse than their dial strengths would indicate.

That's true I've lost count of how often my wins with defenders have been dismissed as local opponents just being poor players instead of recognizing its they who were using the ship wrong.

I've tried to change opinion on the defender since wave four it's been a long slog but I'm glad I'm no longer the lone nutter shouting into the wind.

Haha dude, you were never a lone nutter because I was also shouting in the wind, remember?

The Vessery/Inquisitor combo is very powerful, but it can only apply its power against ships that move before it. The difference between V/I shooting with the Inquisitor's TL and without is 2 TLs and an Evade token.

The Inquisitor is also only tougher and punchier than the Defender at Range 3. The closer you get to a target, the nastier the Defender gets. If your hardest matchup is against PS9, Inquisitor won't do as much, and can go down fast. An x7 will hang around with its buddies and keep shrugging off damage and K-turning to j keep the pressure on a high PS ace.

The 2 point initiative bid is there in order to force moving last. If you still end up moving last, I don't think the low PS TL acquisition problem spells the end of the build, that's only a factor for the initial joust, and that's already a problem with the Inquisitor and it doesn't effect his viability in the meta.

I think the nice thing about Vessery in a Palp Aces list is that a Defender that makes it to the end game is a monster. If the shuttle goes down and you still have the Inquisitor and Vessery you're still in a great spot, as the Defender's 6 health can last through a whiff or two.

Certainly the Inquisitor is still great, I'm just talking about why you might choose one instead of the other. If you suspect you'll be facing something teched against PS8 or aces, the Defender will probably be stronger. Blade_mercurial's time on target point shouldn't be dismissed either. I expect to shoot nearly every turn with Defenders, and you can't really expect a PTL ship to do that.

Certainly the Inquisitor is still great, I'm just talking about why you might choose one instead of the other. If you suspect you'll be facing something teched against PS8 or aces, the Defender will probably be stronger. Blade_mercurial's time on target point shouldn't be dismissed either. I expect to shoot nearly every turn with Defenders, and you can't really expect a PTL ship to do that.

I disagree about time on target. Acewings with green hard turns and boost are great at ToT. They rarely have to K-Turn because they can do 135 degree turns constantly. It's the main reason why I think bank boost should be red, it's one of the factors that makes Palp Aces so powerful.

If a Defender's 4 K turn isn't going to give you a shot, that's it. Defenders are good at ToT as they can just do a 3 hard away and 4k next turn. But I'd say that the advantage is in the Acewings' favor.

Also, Defenders are certainly better against hard counters like Vader Crew, Autoblaster Weapons, Feedback, R5-P8, etc. In general I'd rather have the Inquisitor. That tech still isn't common enough to build against it yet IMO.

Another reason why I like Engine Upgrade on a VI Vessery: ToT. 4k doesn't give you a good angle? What about a 4k and boost?

You don't need to convince me about the utility of Engine on Defenders, certainly. The utility of the 4K does vary depending on target, but the ToT advantage isn't just about maneuvers, it's about endurance. Inquisitor does NOT want to be at close range at all. Autothrusters are off, and he's very easy to block. I just listened to Scum & Villainy's interview of the Howard brothers, and they talk about how to approach the game with Palp-Aces, in that you always have to consider where blocks are and play safe so you don't get caught doing something dumb. A blocked Inquisitor at close range is in serious trouble, and he doesn't even have a good chance to fight his way out because he's no more powerful at close range than he is at long range. x7 Defenders can slam into the thick of things and shrug off substantial close-range firepower because they have more hit points and their Evade is not action dependent.

Certainly the Inquisitor is still great, I'm just talking about why you might choose one instead of the other. If you suspect you'll be facing something teched against PS8 or aces, the Defender will probably be stronger. Blade_mercurial's time on target point shouldn't be dismissed either. I expect to shoot nearly every turn with Defenders, and you can't really expect a PTL ship to do that.

I disagree about time on target. Acewings with green hard turns and boost are great at ToT. They rarely have to K-Turn because they can do 135 degree turns constantly. It's the main reason why I think bank boost should be red, it's one of the factors that makes Palp Aces so powerful.

Its comments like this that make me feel that no wonder you think aces are so powerful. You ain't making their lives difficult enough if you are letting them constantly turn around to get back in the fight without any pressure. Fly like that and of course they will win!

There was a thread a while ago showing how you can put an arc-dodger in your firing arc in such a way that he cannot dodge your arc. Its about 4 base lengths away from where you expect Soontir to end up (not his current spot). So that's one thing you need to learn how to visualize.

Even more important though is blocking! Threaten those blocks! If ace players are flying aggressive enough to constantly keep their ships in the fight, punish them for their brashness! Oh yeah, and pick up those target locks early! Especially X-7 defenders should be grabbing a TL any chance they get. Then save it for that R1 shot. Having the TL saved lets you barrel roll as needed and not worry about having to take unmodified shots.

The potential of the inquis getting caught is why i dont like him. Much like the majority of TIEs he has an issue going slowly forward, so it can be tedious to keep him at range3. Usually once someone goes "i want him" hes at range1 or 2, or im not getting a shot because i ran away.

Inquis is squishy, only reason hes so powerful is hes a sniper. Much like snipers in any game, if you gun for them rapidly they tend to either flee or die.

Defenders may not be quite as nimble since their hards are pretty lousy and their only kturn is highly expected, but they hit slightly less hard at a distance and even harder up close than the inquis and isnt squishy. They are a bit more expensive though so its still not an obvious switch. I rarely run the inquis anyway just because like i said earlier i find it difficult to keep him in arc and NOT end up in close range.

All this talk of inqy v defenders

Ptl title thrusters in (31)

Double x7 juke glaive (68)

Total: 99

Because why have to choose?

Eh, personally i think having either palpy or tie shuttle in there would be better than triple ships.