I've recently been experimenting with 2 delta tie/D with ion cannons combined with carnor push/royal guard/AT/stealth.

Inconclusive so far but this list offers a massive amount of damage vs my ghost heavy meta and carnor can help mess with the aces.

anyone have thoughts/recommendations?

I've been eyeing that list, too, but I don't have much experience with Interceptors, so I can't really give any advice.

This is a lot of thread to read...and I will....

But..

Have we tried fitting two defenders and a 'something'.

Palp shuttle maybe?

Ryad/Glaive with x7, juke, and mk2 + omicron pilot, palp, and baffles = 100pts on the nose.

Thats actually pretty **** mean sounding lol. If you REALLY wanted to you could cut the mk2's (or a juke) and the baffles to give the omicron ion cannons to potentially setup the next turn for the defenders.

Tried to put vessery in there, too pricy. Gotta sacrifice a lot of crap to get him in there.

Very interesting. And as I cruise through the material here....i see my question being addressed several times. We'll go ahead and disregard the above and I'll just keep reading.

Side note...I'm especially curious to run echo with these things...provide a few glass cannon targets for someone to chase after while the other two do evil things from the flanks

I like outmaneuver over predator, simply because you can get a "free" re-roll with ALL of your dice, if necessary, with target lock. With the white k turn, it seems to have more utility for me.

Since when a 3 agility and 6 health point ship is considered as a glass cannon?

I like outmaneuver over predator, simply because you can get a "free" re-roll with ALL of your dice, if necessary, with target lock. With the white k turn, it seems to have more utility for me.

I've always been a fan of outmaneuver, but now it looks even more attractive. Before, it was so rare for me to take a TL with a Defender (maybe once in 6 games) because that would usually be the round where you bought it from an unlucky roll (or just took a bunch of damage you could have avoided). But now with a free evade every turn, that TL is looking better and better when combined with Outmaneuver-y type shenanigans.

Since when a 3 agility and 6 health point ship is considered as a glass cannon?

The x7 ones can't really be considered glass cannons by any metric, but the TID/D builds, especially if you're putting points into an offensive EPT like Predator, can be considered glass cannons because they're weighted toward offense over defense, even if they're not easy to kill overall. They can be easy to kill for the points.

Since when a 3 agility and 6 health point ship is considered as a glass cannon?

The x7 ones can't really be considered glass cannons by any metric, but the TID/D builds, especially if you're putting points into an offensive EPT like Predator, can be considered glass cannons because they're weighted toward offense over defense, even if they're not easy to kill overall. They can be easy to kill for the points.

Appearantly green dice only roll blanks, or eyeballs when you don't have a focus.

The Scyk is the definition of a glass cannon. The Defender is a nightmare when it ionizes you, TBs you, makes you waste your tokens and then Lays down the hurt at R1. It's made to kill, not to eat 16 hits like a Decimator.

I'm actually loving Brath with Predator, TIE/D Ion and Prockets. It doesn't matter who or what you are when you get focused with Ions and primaries then procketed. I've flipped all 5 cards against a Decimator. It was...glorious.

Once I get my two Vets boxes I doubt I'll be flying anything but Defender centric lists for quite a while. It shall be a golden age for the Empire.

Since when a 3 agility and 6 health point ship is considered as a glass cannon?

The x7 ones can't really be considered glass cannons by any metric, but the TID/D builds, especially if you're putting points into an offensive EPT like Predator, can be considered glass cannons because they're weighted toward offense over defense, even if they're not easy to kill overall. They can be easy to kill for the points.

By that definition, a lot of Ace X-Wing builds are glass cannons.

Since when a 3 agility and 6 health point ship is considered as a glass cannon?

The x7 ones can't really be considered glass cannons by any metric, but the TID/D builds, especially if you're putting points into an offensive EPT like Predator, can be considered glass cannons because they're weighted toward offense over defense, even if they're not easy to kill overall. They can be easy to kill for the points.

By that definition, a lot of Ace X-Wing builds are glass cannons.

Aye, pretty much every ship in the game is.

Since when a 3 agility and 6 health point ship is considered as a glass cannon?

The x7 ones can't really be considered glass cannons by any metric, but the TID/D builds, especially if you're putting points into an offensive EPT like Predator, can be considered glass cannons because they're weighted toward offense over defense, even if they're not easy to kill overall. They can be easy to kill for the points.

By that definition, a lot of Ace X-Wing builds are glass cannons.

Aye, pretty much every ship in the game is.

No, not really, not even close.

Since when a 3 agility and 6 health point ship is considered as a glass cannon?

The x7 ones can't really be considered glass cannons by any metric, but the TID/D builds, especially if you're putting points into an offensive EPT like Predator, can be considered glass cannons because they're weighted toward offense over defense, even if they're not easy to kill overall. They can be easy to kill for the points.

By that definition, a lot of Ace X-Wing builds are glass cannons.

I'm not sure of that, most ace builds have repositioning and/or token stacking that TIE/Ds lack. The Defenders have more HP, but that's good for a limited time.

Since when a 3 agility and 6 health point ship is considered as a glass cannon?

The x7 ones can't really be considered glass cannons by any metric, but the TID/D builds, especially if you're putting points into an offensive EPT like Predator, can be considered glass cannons because they're weighted toward offense over defense, even if they're not easy to kill overall. They can be easy to kill for the points.

By that definition, a lot of Ace X-Wing builds are glass cannons.

I'm not sure of that, most ace builds have repositioning and/or token stacking that TIE/Ds lack. The Defenders have more HP, but that's good for a limited time.

Of the following ships that are part of Imperial Ace builds: Soontir, Carnor, Vader, Inquisitor, Omega Leader, Whisper), I think only Whisper is really a glass cannon, though I'm not sure what category to put Carnor in if I had to, and the Inquisitor probably leans that way a bit. Omega Leader and and Soontir both have abilities that tend to weigh much more heavily defensively than offensively.

I don't think it's any question that the rebels do not favor the glass cannon type of Ace at all. Even competitive Corran Horn builds tend to focus on the defensive regen aspect of the ship. The Scum ships we're seeing in the meta have a lot more health to go with their big shots.

Thats how dice always work. Got a ton of defense dice? Blanks. Got a focus? Blanks. Dont have a focus? All eyes.

Never forget how pissed i was to have Vessery w/ Stealth Device, Range3, through a rock and a focus take 3 **** DAMAGE first time he gets shot at. That shouldnt have happened at all, let alone all 3 damage.

The tank/glass cannon is a ratio of offense to defense.

It is not how hard the thing is to actually kill.

So;

TIE/D increases the overall damage of the Defender, which pushes it further along the 'glass cannon' scale.

TI/x7 increases the overall defense of the Defender, which pushes it further along the 'tank' scale.

Glass cannon is another one of those meaningless terms that people apply to this game, like " turrets, arc dodgers, and jousters. Or, "knife fighter", or "swarm".

A 3 agility, 6 health ship is a glass cannon now.

5 or even 4 ship lists are considered swarms.

Fat turrets with engine upgrade are the best arc dodgers in the game.

Arc dodgers like Soontir or the Inquistor are better jousters than joustwings are.

Knife fighter means nothing. Or it gets applied to the B-Wing, which is actually awful at "knife fighting" because its 2 K-Turn can't actually clear anything and its hard 1 turn is red.

Hell, people call SOONTIR a glass cannon. The hardest ship in the game to kill without hard counters is not a glass cannon.

I think you and I disagree on the term 'meaningless'

Arbitrary? Certainly. And subject to change, too.

But if you understand what I mean by 'glass cannon' and 'jouster' and 'arc dodger' then I think the terms are conveying meaning.

And no, Soontir hasn't been a glass cannon for a while now. He's fragile, but that's not the same thing as being a glass cannon.

sure...i could see `glass cannon` not being quite correct. im trying to think of a more accurate anology..

like....a race car or something....really strong and does amazing things when used correctly. but make one misake and they pop like a soap bubble.

ive lost every single imperial small ship that i have tried. Instantly, by being out of position ONCE.

thats not a complaint about anything. its just how the faction tends to work for me. I think thats why i say`glass cannon`

Since when a 3 agility and 6 health point ship is considered as a glass cannon?

About the time people tried to use it like a supercepter instead of a heavy fighter.

I think you guys still miss what MajorJuggler was saying when he said that Vessery is a glass cannon. Vessory's offensive power post Veterans is so strong, that it makes his 3 Agi and 6 HP look weak in comparison. Think of it as a scaled up Interceptor if its offensive power was scaled up as much. Vessery is not something to take lightly post Veterans. He can be brutal now.

I think you guys still miss what MajorJuggler was saying when he said that Vessery is a glass cannon. Vessory's offensive power post Veterans is so strong, that it makes his 3 Agi and 6 HP look weak in comparison. Think of it as a scaled up Interceptor if its offensive power was scaled up as much. Vessery is not something to take lightly post Veterans. He can be brutal now.

The TIE/D anyway for sure. x7 Vessery is much more balanced between offense and defense.

Glass Cannon- Something with a high damage output but low survivability.

There, that seemed easy enough. I guess the main deciding factor is that some people seem to count evading as health in their definition. You know who a good baseline for GC might be? Mauler Mithel.

I dunno, just thinkin' out loud I guess. I hate this debate.

Again, as MajorJuggler has said, the potential offensive power of TIE/D Vessery makes his 3 Agi and 6 HP look extremely low in comparison. It is about relative power of offense against defense.

In simple terms, Vessery is bonkers.