The question then becomes how do you balance it out either you have a droid with one of its major setbacks removed or a human with a whole load of droid bonuses added . Either of these would appear to balance with the rest of the species.

I think that's a discussion for the GM and the player. Though personally I think the "you are also now vulnerable to Ion damage, and can't be healed through medicine, have to use repair kits" is a sufficient drawback. I mean most players consider playing a droid to be a downgrade, that it's just not worth the drawbacks to play one, when you can simply play an organic.

I don't see why not, its just that they can't call upon any of the Force skills

There are some Training-Droids armed with lightsabers in Jedi Knight 3 - Jedi Academy. They are certainly no match for a trained Jedi but i think they are more than capable in melee combat against any non-jedi - even marauders. The real problem is to get hands on a lightsaber - in case there is a player who want to play as such droid or want to build one. In my opionion they are interesting as nemesis npcs to guide some jedi relics or ruins.

1) Can a Droid learn to wield a Lightsaber?

Yes, it is just a weapon skill like any other. Though some would argue it's tough to train unless you have one to train with, so you'd need to get your hands on one.

2) Can a Droid purchase a talent tree from F&D?

Yes, that is clearly answered in F&D stating that even non-Force sensitives can use those trees. They just can't use the Force related talents.

3) Does purchasing an F&D talent tree after CharGen give you Force sensitivity?

No it does not. Those trees assume you already had Force 1 from the start, since the whole book is about being Force sensitive. F&D characters are awarded Force 1 upon selecting a Career, not the Specialization. The only ways to get Force 1 after CharGen are the Force Exile (EoE) or Force Emergent (AoR) Specializations.

I like the Iron Knight solution. The droid doesn’t have the Force themselves, but they are host to a crystalline symbiont that does.Problem solved.

Then they are no longer a droid and have become a living being, this path leads to complexities that are too hard to ratify, for example what happens to the symbiant when the droid is ion damaged, is it possiblr to separate them. How do you now balance the benefits of being inorganic with being organic now that one of the major drawbacks of a droid are now removed, even making them a human doesnt balance since, now do they eat sleep and breathe like a human. I know this is the yes and system but to be honest this is too far out there for me.

Shards themselves are inorganic.They are living crystals. They are not able to move at all, but can emit energy, which allows them to pilot a droid. The droid body is basically a cybernetic implant or vehicle for them. Shards do not sleep or eat like humans, and they have often issues to perceive time in the same way as organics. To make them a species in the RPG would be not that hard. You start them still with the basic sh*tty all 1 droid body and 175 xp, keep the one rank endurance, keep the cybernetics limits, but lose the skill advantage. They need to train their skills the old school way. They are basically worse than droids at the start, but can be force sensitive, which is rare with them, and if their body is destroyed someone can collect the crystal and transplant it to a new body. As shards are completely helpless without their droid body is rather irrelevant that they might or might not be immune to ion weapons, because their body is for sure not immune.

All in all there is no reason for a droid to not learn how to fight with a lightsaber. As with every character there should be a compelling story reason.

I remember reading in the legends that Grievous learned lightsaber forms to a degree, though I forgot which book it was.

If I remember correctly, Grievous learned most of the lightsaber forms and tought his droids. If you want to see how terryfing he is, go watch the Cartoon Network Clone Wars. Grievous himself is a (non force sensitive) cyborg, so that may be an exception, but he as well as his droids were very proficient and deadly.

Also in Legends, there are several instances of droids fighting with lightsabers, in Jedi academy there were saber training droids, Starkiller had proxy who could even imitate Vaders fighting style.

Thank you everyone. I took advice and I started my droid character off as a Gun for Hire: Marauder. The GM says that he see no problem with the melee/brawl bonus stuff also applying to lightsabers. So I have working in that for now and will branch out in to the Shii Cho spec to buff up my saber skill until i hit the talents that require the force to take.

I won't be bouncing blaster bolts back at their shooters but I will be pretty good at parrying and the like.

Thank you everyone. I took advice and I started my droid character off as a Gun for Hire: Marauder. The GM says that he see no problem with the melee/brawl bonus stuff also applying to lightsabers. So I have working in that for now and will branch out in to the Shii Cho spec to buff up my saber skill until i hit the talents that require the force to take.

I won't be bouncing blaster bolts back at their shooters but I will be pretty good at parrying and the like.

Technically, brawl/melee talents don't apply to lightsaber, as it is a different skill, and that is on purpose, to prevent people from becoming insane with stacking talents for melee and lightsaber. So your GM is technically going against Rules As Written. But if you guys are cool with that, go for it. Just wanted to point that out since you brought it up.

Well its simple logic. Brawn is the main stat for brawl, melee and lightsaber. So a talent in a book that predates the establishment of lightsaber as a skill and the attribute its linked to we can see a commonality. And the lightsaber is a melee weapon.

a droid is very limited when trying to learn a spec that would aid lightsaber use. Look at the spec trees. Eventually a force talent pops up and since droid can learn it because of lack of force ability then he is dead ended.

My saber training combat droid will only be good at the parry talent and improved parry talent works for lightsaber, brawl and melee skills it should be fine.

Please point me to where in the RaW its says marauder traits cannot count towards lightsaber usage.

Well its simple logic. Brawn is the main stat for brawl, melee and lightsaber. So a talent in a book that predates the establishment of lightsaber as a skill and the attribute its linked to we can see a commonality. And the lightsaber is a melee weapon.

a droid is very limited when trying to learn a spec that would aid lightsaber use. Look at the spec trees. Eventually a force talent pops up and since droid can learn it because of lack of force ability then he is dead ended.

My saber training combat droid will only be good at the parry talent and improved parry talent works for lightsaber, brawl and melee skills it should be fine.

Please point me to where in the RaW its says marauder traits cannot count towards lightsaber usage.

Droids can learn force talents just fine. They just never can USE them. Look a technician droid with the armorer spec and he seems to be a doctor too

Well its simple logic. Brawn is the main stat for brawl, melee and lightsaber. So a talent in a book that predates the establishment of lightsaber as a skill and the attribute its linked to we can see a commonality. And the lightsaber is a melee weapon.

a droid is very limited when trying to learn a spec that would aid lightsaber use. Look at the spec trees. Eventually a force talent pops up and since droid can learn it because of lack of force ability then he is dead ended.

My saber training combat droid will only be good at the parry talent and improved parry talent works for lightsaber, brawl and melee skills it should be fine.

Please point me to where in the RaW its says marauder traits cannot count towards lightsaber usage.

Frenzied Attack for instance specifically calls out Melee and Brawl checks by capitalized proper name which means it would not apply to a Lightsaber check. Feral Strength is the same.

Well its simple logic. Brawn is the main stat for brawl, melee and lightsaber.

Not necessarily, as you can use any of the other stats for Lightsaber, if you have the right talent to switch out Brawn.

So a talent in a book that predates the establishment of lightsaber as a skill and the attribute its linked to we can see a commonality. And the lightsaber is a melee weapon.

Well since you are talking about EotE, since you said "predates" lightsaber as a skill, it also predates using lightsabers. They aren't recommended to be used in that book. They are listed yes, but the book pretty clearly says nobody's really got sabers. But the developers felt the two combat styles are different enough to warrant a completely separate skill. So I would say they are not the same.

And the lightsaber is a melee weapon.

A melee weapon that doesn't use the melee skill. And for skills that specifically say they effect melee skill checks, that doesn't include lightsabers.

a droid is very limited when trying to learn a spec that would aid lightsaber use. Look at the spec trees. Eventually a force talent pops up and since droid can learn it because of lack of force ability then he is dead ended.

Actually they can learn it, meaning they can spend XP to buy it, they just don't gain any benefit from it. But they can totally buy it, knowing it's basically an XP sinkhole, so they can continue down the talent tree. This is straight from Sam Stewart's mouth on the subject. No reason whatsoever a droid PC couldn't buy an entire saber spec tree. They just wouldn't benefit from all of it.

My saber training combat droid will only be good at the parry talent and improved parry talent works for lightsaber, brawl and melee skills it should be fine.

I don't have my book in front of me, but if the book says that Parry and Improved Parry work for lightsaber,brawl and melee, then go right ahead, but I think it only works for lightsaber skill. Or ignore it. I already said if you guys are fine with it, do it. I was simply pointing out that you are going against RAW.

Please point me to where in the RaW its says marauder traits cannot count towards lightsaber usage.

I don't have my books in front of me, but I'm sure someone else will be delighted to do so. If the talent says it effects the melee skill, it doesn't...by RAW, effect lightsaber, as they are 2 different skills. This is pretty clear in the books. And again, has been pointed out specifically by Sam Stewart that they don't stack. Melee governs melee skill, lightsaber governs lightsaber skill, and never the two shall meet. And again, like I said above, if you and your GM are fine with house ruling this away, so they do stack, go right ahead. I don't care either way. I was simply pointing out, that you are going against RAW if you do that, and that it will make lightsaber users even more insane than they already are, by being able to take advantage of talents they normally wouldn't. There's nothing stopping you from simply buying ranks in Lightsaber. if it's not a career skill, it's only slightly more expensive, and really, XP isn't hard to come by in this system. Or, take a career spec that gives you "well rounded". Pick 2 skills, they are now career. Boom, lightsaber is now 5 xp cheaper per rank. Or again, just buy it with the +5 xp. It's really not that bad. You could probably buy a rank every session for like 3-4 sessions in a row, if you are getting the average 15-20 xp per session most people seem to get.

Lightsabers normally require the Lightsaber skill to wield. However, since that skill is not an option for Player Characters in this book, players must use a lightsaber untrained... This is deliberate, because there are few people in the galaxy who properly know how to fight with a lightsaber. However, if the GM feels it is warranted, he can create the Lightsaber skill as a custon skill for his players.

EotE CRB p. 167. Furthermore, Feral Strength and Frenzied Attack specifically call for the Brawl and Melee skills. So they would not be compatible.

Also, about Parry: the description mentions Lightsaber and Melee weapons. Parry (Improved) mentions that the character can retaliate with a wielded Brawl, Melee or Lightsaber weapon.

a droid is very limited when trying to learn a spec that would aid lightsaber use. Look at the spec trees. Eventually a force talent pops up and since droid can learn it because of lack of force ability then he is dead ended.

Actually they can learn it, meaning they can spend XP to buy it, they just don't gain any benefit from it. But they can totally buy it, knowing it's basically an XP sinkhole, so they can continue down the talent tree. This is straight from Sam Stewart's mouth on the subject. No reason whatsoever a droid PC couldn't buy an entire saber spec tree. They just wouldn't benefit from all of it.

Just wanted to highlight what a good point this is. Take a non-force user with melee skills, and take the Makashi Duelist tree. There's lots of handy non-force talents like multiple ranks of Parry that a melee guy can use, and only like.. 2 unavoidable force talents. Suck it up, buy those unusable talents to get through them, and enjoy the rest.

well in our games the GM agrees is it a melee weapon and he also agrees that the effects from the marauder spec apply to it. I am also in agreement on such issues.

The whole "Lightsabers are not melee" makes no sense is clearly just nitpicking over semantics ... seriously.

A lightsaber is a sword or baton you swing, chop, or poke with. IT does not shoot energy blasts out the blade end so is it not a blaster. It doesn't fly around the room guided by your telekinesis mind focus, so its not magic. And it is clearly establish in film, book, comic, video game, and animation that droids can at least swing and block with them. No need to go foaming at the mouth over it.

You right lightsaber is a separate named skill. But instead of saying its magically special just look at it as a melee focused skill on working only with the lightsaber instead of the score of other melee weapons.

Also the lightsaber skill was advised to be allowed to be a custom skill. At the time the skill was not attributed to set stat. In essence they had no idea where to put it.

Now force and destiny has come out and it clearly says Lightsaber - Brawn. Yes you are correct there are also talents to allow you to use other stats instead of brawn to link lightsaber rolls with. But still defaults to brawn otherwise ... As does Brawling...As does Lightsabers Logical parent skill of melee.

Reading over this thread seems so odd. You have people saying clearly a droid can use a lightsaber and can take skills from specs that would improve their use of them. But Also say that a droid cannot use the force but can take talents he can never use.... that makes no sense.

The arching rule behind gaming is keep it simple and keep it fun.

I am fan of star wars, but I am not a fanboy. I prefer to keep it simple and have fun.

It's interesting you call for where a rule is written and then dismiss both the answer as well as basic grammar as semantics. Typically when one wants to know where something is written for clarification semantics is pretty much the point of the question. You and your GM are entitled to play however you like, but in regards to what the rule says you are not following it.

Reading over this thread seems so odd. You have people saying clearly a droid can use a lightsaber and can take skills from specs that would improve their use of them. But Also say that a droid cannot use the force but can take talents he can never use.... that makes no sense.

How does that make no sense? It's simple. Droids can take Talents from Specializations that help with using a lightsaber, but because droids cannot have a Force Rating, they can't use the Force Talents. However, in some of the lightsaber trees, you have to buy a Force Talent to get to the next usable Talent(s) - so therefore, the droid must buy a Talent he can never use.

I only dismiss it because in the book the spec is listed in was lightsabers and their uses where not a character option very much.

The book predates Force and Destiny which lays out the lightsaber better, the skill and stat it is defaulted to using (ignoring a trait so you can link it to some other stat as these are exceptions to the rule). So when the lightsaber skill is just floating around in idea form land it was not likely to be listed in the spec trees.

The group we are playing is in not just limited to purely EotE character. Like WEG D6 system we are allowed to play any character from any background. So yes my character creation is drawing from all the books and one of those books only really focuses on lightsabers.

What I have not seen is any well thought out or logical reasoning behind how a lightsaber is some magical weapon that it just has to be completely different from everything else and cannot work like other things of its classification.

You point out that the rules are saying it because it does not list lightsabers. Yet I am pointing out that lack of it not being listed to begin with does is not clear and cut proof it cannot be allowed. That game book focuses on non-lightsaber using characters. But 2 years later when we finally get the jedi book and now people can use them without special GM hand waving, it makes sense then that it can now be applicable.

Hey lets make a class that focuses hand held melee ranged weapons and making them do more damage.

Okay, but what about the lightsaber?

No one is going to be using that in this book for their characters anyways since there are no jedi so don't worry about it.

Okay. Your right.

How does that make no sense? It's simple. Droids can take Talents from Specializations that help with using a lightsaber, but because droids cannot have a Force Rating, they can't use the Force Talents. However, in some of the lightsaber trees, you have to buy a Force Talent to get to the next usable Talent(s) - so therefore, the droid must buy a Talent he can never use.

Sorry but it is not fair, logical or cool to make someone waste experience points on something they cannot and will not ever use.

What other characters have to waste their points?

How does that make no sense? It's simple. Droids can take Talents from Specializations that help with using a lightsaber, but because droids cannot have a Force Rating, they can't use the Force Talents. However, in some of the lightsaber trees, you have to buy a Force Talent to get to the next usable Talent(s) - so therefore, the droid must buy a Talent he can never use.

Sorry but it is not fair, logical or cool to make someone waste experience points on something they cannot and will not ever use.

No one is forcing you to go down that road, though. And it is well-establish in the lore that droids cannot be Force-sensitive, so the game reflects this, but you also have other advantages over organics. So, when you decide to play a droid who uses a lightsaber and you want to take a Specialization that has those Talents, you are making a conscious choice to take those penalties.

As for the reason it not being tied to Melee is because a lightsaber is fundamentally different from a normal melee weapon in virtually every way - and there's a reason there are so few non Force-sensitives who use them. To properly use one, it takes rigorous and specialized training that very few have knowledge of, and many consider lightsabers archaic when compared to a blaster.

In the rules any time the word "Melee" is capitalised it is specifically talking of weapons that use the Melee skill.

Any time the word "melee" is used where it is lowercase it is referring to any attack with a Brawl, Melee or Lightsaber weapon.

EG: Feral Strength uses the words "Brawl" and "Melee" so it does not apply to Lightsaber checks. This is specifically for balancing reasons, Lightsabers are nasty powerful enough without 7 ranks of Lethal Blows

EG 2: Parry uses the word "melee" to indicate it functions with any of the 3 hand to hand skills

So, when you decide to play a droid who uses a lightsaber and you want to take a Specialization that has those Talents, you are making a conscious choice to take those penalties.

Yeah and I look at those spec trees and see that FORCE SKILL trait I have to stop any further progress because I can't use it and cannot take it. That is the penalties.

So are saying .... just waste your character points...buy a thing you will never use and continue on picking other skills.

Seems I am the only one seeing the logic to this. And Insisting on wasting character points is rather insulting to a player, its saying I have to pay vastly more for a thing when the rules clearly stat that the price and make no grounds for making it cost more.

I am adhering to the spirit of rules by the idea that someone without the force cannot take a trait on the tree that is listed as a force trait. To say just buy it and waste the points so you can instead take more stuff up the tree seems to go against the spirit of the rules. And in a narrative game system its the spirit that counts.

So, when you decide to play a droid who uses a lightsaber and you want to take a Specialization that has those Talents, you are making a conscious choice to take those penalties.

Yeah and I look at those spec trees and see that FORCE SKILL trait I have to stop any further progress because I can't use it and cannot take it. That is the penalties.

So are saying .... just waste your character points...buy a thing you will never use and continue on picking other skills.

Seems I am the only one seeing the logic to this. And Insisting on wasting character points is rather insulting to a player, its saying I have to pay vastly more for a thing when the rules clearly stat that the price and make no grounds for making it cost more.

Have you noticed that in Force and Destiny, Droids aren't listed as a playable species? This is intentional. As I said, if you are making the conscious choice to play a droid who uses a lightsaber and wants to take a lightsaber Specialization that has Force Talents, then you are making a deliberate choice to 'waste' experience on non-usable Talents.

That is not a flaw in design - it is deliberate for the lore of the setting.

You can buy a Force Talent and move past it, you don't have to stop whether you can use it or not, that goes for any species buying into the tree that doesn't have a FR.

You're also inserting logic in place of 'I don't like it'.

It's perfectly logical with lightsabers, by default it begins with and/or can be modded to do things in combat that every other weapon in the game would require multiple different attachments and/or Jury Rigged applied to them.

In regards to things like Feral Strength and Frenzied Attack not being able to be used by a lightsaber that's also perfectly logical for balance reasons. Same logic applies to why True Aim can only be used with ranged attacks.

I am adhering to the spirit of rules by the idea that someone without the force cannot take a trait on the tree that is listed as a force trait. To say just buy it and waste the points so you can instead take more stuff up the tree seems to go against the spirit of the rules. And in a narrative game system its the spirit that counts.

It's not against the spirit of the game when one of the developers has stated you can buy it and continue on. In fact, with that logic, you're actually FURTHER penalizing yourself.