Ok, so here's how I understand this. Please correct me if you see any fault in my logic.

Zeb says: "Enemy ships inside your firing arc that you are touching are not considered to be touching you when either you or they activate during the Combat phase".

An excerpt from Phantom card: "at the end of the Combat phase, it (Ghost) may perform an additional attack with an equipped Turret".

The key piece here is the "end of the Combat phase" part, because it translates to "outside regular PS-order Combat phase activation of this ship".

Meaning that unless some rule would be saying "the ship is considered active when it performs additional attacks, even if those occur at the end of combat phase", Zeb can't be used for the Ghost/Phantom second turret attack .

Looks like you are right on.

A core rule of the game? Really?

Yes really.

No one would even notice the difference outside of the ghost and dengar.

There's a lot of rules that only affect a small number of ships or upgrades. That doesn't change the fact that they're rules. Nor should you change it simply because it only affects a small number. The only reason you change it is because it doesn't work like intended, and as far as we know Zeb works exactly as intended.

A core rule of the game? Really? No one would even notice the difference outside of the ghost and dengar. It's a minor change (if not just a clarification). And none of what you said affects the rules on measuring range, which you can't do according to the rules if you aren't the active ship.

It's a rule from the Rules Reference Guide that is part of the the flow of the combat phase, that's what makes it a core rule.

The rules absolutely permit you to measure as part of an attack.

RRG, pg. 4:

' ATTACK

A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the

active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an

attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:

1. Declare Target : The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.'

That first paragraph doesn't say to only perform the following steps during your activation. It says two things:

1. Each ship can perform one attack when it becomes the active ship.

2. When you attack, follow these steps.

The steps of the attack itself permit measuring and checking for arcs.

The FAQ overrides the rulebook (given that it's how they override or change rules down the line without printing a new rulebook). And the FAQ says you can't measure range outside of the specific windows that it describes.

A core rule of the game? Really? No one would even notice the difference outside of the ghost and dengar. It's a minor change (if not just a clarification). And none of what you said affects the rules on measuring range, which you can't do according to the rules if you aren't the active ship.

It's a rule from the Rules Reference Guide that is part of the the flow of the combat phase, that's what makes it a core rule.

The rules absolutely permit you to measure as part of an attack.

RRG, pg. 4:

' ATTACK

A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the

active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an

attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:

1. Declare Target : The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.'

That first paragraph doesn't say to only perform the following steps during your activation. It says two things:

1. Each ship can perform one attack when it becomes the active ship.

2. When you attack, follow these steps.

The steps of the attack itself permit measuring and checking for arcs.

The FAQ overrides the rulebook (given that it's how they override or change rules down the line without printing a new rulebook). And the FAQ says you can't measure range outside of the specific windows that it describes.

It's fairly clear that the rules in the RRG permit measuring as part of the attack. You've got a case of a specific rule in the RRG being compared to a general rule in the FAQ. I'm not sure that the FAQ would override it in this case. The FAQ would also permit it under the second case that is described in the block to which I believe you are referring. Each out of activation attack comes from an ability. To use the ability it requires a range measurement.

FAQ, pg. 4:

I do agree that it's poorly written in the FAQ and it looks like it might be a conflict.

A core rule of the game? Really? No one would even notice the difference outside of the ghost and dengar. It's a minor change (if not just a clarification). And none of what you said affects the rules on measuring range, which you can't do according to the rules if you aren't the active ship.

It's a rule from the Rules Reference Guide that is part of the the flow of the combat phase, that's what makes it a core rule.

The rules absolutely permit you to measure as part of an attack.

RRG, pg. 4:

' ATTACK

A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the

active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an

attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:

1. Declare Target : The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.'

That first paragraph doesn't say to only perform the following steps during your activation. It says two things:

1. Each ship can perform one attack when it becomes the active ship.

2. When you attack, follow these steps.

The steps of the attack itself permit measuring and checking for arcs.

The FAQ overrides the rulebook (given that it's how they override or change rules down the line without printing a new rulebook). And the FAQ says you can't measure range outside of the specific windows that it describes.

It's fairly clear that the rules in the RRG permit measuring as part of the attack. You've got a case of a specific rule in the RRG being compared to a general rule in the FAQ. I'm not sure that the FAQ would override it in this case. The FAQ would also permit it under the second case that is described in the block to which I believe you are referring. Each out of activation attack comes from an ability. To use the ability it requires a range measurement.

An ability that requires another ship to be at a certain range is something like Guri ("If you are at Range 1 of an enemy ship"), or saboteur ("choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1") etc. The abilities themselves specify a range requirement. Nowhere on Zeb's ability does it specify a range.

If they add something to the FAQ that says abilities that let you perform extra attacks during the combat phase are considered additional activations or change the FAQ entry for measuring range to allow it when attacking period as opposed to when you're active during the combat phase, either one would fix that issue. Techinically with the current wording Corran could never measure range for his double tap...

One could also question whether any ships are active during Dengar's revenge shot. There's arguments that whoever attacked him is the active ships till, but technically that ship has finished resolving it's attack, so you could argue that they aren't active anymore either. All the rules say is the active ship is the oe resolving the combat phase. Resolving the combat phase means you get an attack. The attack ends when you deal damage (or miss), so are you still active for an after defending ability that attacks back? The rules around activation are rather less clear and specific than they could be in the combat phase. If there IS no active ship for dengar's revenge shot, that creates other problems...

A core rule of the game? Really? No one would even notice the difference outside of the ghost and dengar. It's a minor change (if not just a clarification). And none of what you said affects the rules on measuring range, which you can't do according to the rules if you aren't the active ship.

It's a rule from the Rules Reference Guide that is part of the the flow of the combat phase, that's what makes it a core rule.

The rules absolutely permit you to measure as part of an attack.

RRG, pg. 4:

' ATTACK

A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the

active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an

attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:

1. Declare Target : The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.'

That first paragraph doesn't say to only perform the following steps during your activation. It says two things:

1. Each ship can perform one attack when it becomes the active ship.

2. When you attack, follow these steps.

The steps of the attack itself permit measuring and checking for arcs.

The FAQ overrides the rulebook (given that it's how they override or change rules down the line without printing a new rulebook). And the FAQ says you can't measure range outside of the specific windows that it describes.

It's fairly clear that the rules in the RRG permit measuring as part of the attack. You've got a case of a specific rule in the RRG being compared to a general rule in the FAQ. I'm not sure that the FAQ would override it in this case. The FAQ would also permit it under the second case that is described in the block to which I believe you are referring. Each out of activation attack comes from an ability. To use the ability it requires a range measurement.

An ability that requires another ship to be at a certain range is something like Guri ("If you are at Range 1 of an enemy ship"), or saboteur ("choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1") etc. The abilities themselves specify a range requirement. Nowhere on Zeb's ability does it specify a range.

An ability that grants an attack is an ability that requires another ship to be at a certain range. That range is dictated by the range of the attack.

An ability that grants an attack is an ability that requires another ship to be at a certain range. That range is dictated by the range of the attack.

It's not the same thing though. Zeb is an ability that lets you do something else. That something else just happens to require a certain range. Zeb himself does not.

Another clarification: if a Lothal rebel (no docked shuttle) with Zeb crew attacks using AB turret and a ship with autothrusters is behind it touching (at R1 within aux arc), does it get to use AT? I say no because the aux arc IS a firing arc for all intents and purposes.

An ability that grants an attack is an ability that requires another ship to be at a certain range. That range is dictated by the range of the attack.

It's not the same thing though. Zeb is an ability that lets you do something else. That something else just happens to require a certain range. Zeb himself does not.

I disagree. The intent that attacks work is obvious. The rule that permits measuring for those attacks is clear. The entry in the FAQ is ambiguous and open to interpretation.

I've just submitted a rules question to FFG. I'm done discussing is until they respond. Here is the question that I submitted:

Is measuring range for an attack permitted during attacks that happen outside of a ship's activation (Corran's double-tap, Dengar's counter-attack, Phantom Title)?

The rules state that measuring for range is permitted as one of the steps of an attack. The FAQ on the other hand forbids all measurement outside of three situations:

1. You are the active ship in the combat phase.

2. You are using an ability that requires another ship at a certain range.

3. You are attempting to acquire a target lock on a ship.

Does this FAQ entry override the rules in the Rules Reference Guide or are ships with out of activation attacks permit to measure for range?

Another clarification: if a Lothal rebel (no docked shuttle) with Zeb crew attacks using AB turret and a ship with autothrusters is behind it touching (at R1 within aux arc), does it get to use AT? I say no because the aux arc IS a firing arc for all intents and purposes.

Nope, no autothrusters. The flipside of that is that if you DON'T have a turret (or docked phantom or rnage 1 torpedo) and use zeb crew, someone that bumps your rear still gets to blast you due to zeb crew and the special arc, but you get no return shot...

Another clarification: if a Lothal rebel (no docked shuttle) with Zeb crew attacks using AB turret and a ship with autothrusters is behind it touching (at R1 within aux arc), does it get to use AT? I say no because the aux arc IS a firing arc for all intents and purposes.

No autothrusters for the attack.

Another clarification: if a Lothal rebel (no docked shuttle) with Zeb crew attacks using AB turret and a ship with autothrusters is behind it touching (at R1 within aux arc), does it get to use AT? I say no because the aux arc IS a firing arc for all intents and purposes.

Nope, no autothrusters. The flipside of that is that if you DON'T have a turret (or docked phantom or rnage 1 torpedo) and use zeb crew, someone that bumps your rear still gets to blast you due to zeb crew and the special arc, but you get no return shot...

it's an AB turret, autothrusters don't do jack even if they do trigger

say you have TLT tactician, though. If the enemy is in the printed rear arc, even without Phantom you WILL negate autothrusters AND double stress them

Another clarification: if a Lothal rebel (no docked shuttle) with Zeb crew attacks using AB turret and a ship with autothrusters is behind it touching (at R1 within aux arc), does it get to use AT? I say no because the aux arc IS a firing arc for all intents and purposes.

Nope, no autothrusters. The flipside of that is that if you DON'T have a turret (or docked phantom or rnage 1 torpedo) and use zeb crew, someone that bumps your rear still gets to blast you due to zeb crew and the special arc, but you get no return shot...

it's an AB turret, autothrusters don't do jack even if they do trigger

say you have TLT tactician, though. If the enemy is in the printed rear arc, even without Phantom you WILL negate autothrusters AND double stress them

Well, they do if the AB turret rolls a crit.

An ability that grants an attack is an ability that requires another ship to be at a certain range. That range is dictated by the range of the attack.

It's not the same thing though. Zeb is an ability that lets you do something else. That something else just happens to require a certain range. Zeb himself does not.

I disagree. The intent that attacks work is obvious. The rule that permits measuring for those attacks is clear. The entry in the FAQ is ambiguous and open to interpretation.

I've just submitted a rules question to FFG. I'm done discussing is until they respond. Here is the question that I submitted:

Is measuring range for an attack permitted during attacks that happen outside of a ship's activation (Corran's double-tap, Dengar's counter-attack, Phantom Title)?

The rules state that measuring for range is permitted as one of the steps of an attack. The FAQ on the other hand forbids all measurement outside of three situations:

1. You are the active ship in the combat phase.

2. You are using an ability that requires another ship at a certain range.

3. You are attempting to acquire a target lock on a ship.

Does this FAQ entry override the rules in the Rules Reference Guide or are ships with out of activation attacks permit to measure for range?

I'm not actually arguing that people shouldn't be able to measure range. Clearly the intention is that you can. Just saying that RAW says you can't if you aren't the active ship, and that the rules regarding who is or isn't active in the combat phase are written badly and need to be cleaned up/clarified (and maybe using it as an argument that you should be the active ship if you're attacking)

Another clarification: if a Lothal rebel (no docked shuttle) with Zeb crew attacks using AB turret and a ship with autothrusters is behind it touching (at R1 within aux arc), does it get to use AT? I say no because the aux arc IS a firing arc for all intents and purposes.

Nope, no autothrusters. The flipside of that is that if you DON'T have a turret (or docked phantom or rnage 1 torpedo) and use zeb crew, someone that bumps your rear still gets to blast you due to zeb crew and the special arc, but you get no return shot...

it's an AB turret, autothrusters don't do jack even if they do trigger

say you have TLT tactician, though. If the enemy is in the printed rear arc, even without Phantom you WILL negate autothrusters AND double stress them

Well, they do if the AB turret rolls a crit.

That was the problem, I roll hit, crit against IG88, he blanks with only hull remaining. TO mistakingly ruled in favor of AT. And yes, Zeb, with no turret/socked shuttle can hurt.

Also. Fhe activation rules in the rulebook specifying 1 activation per round were written before wave 8 released, so at the time there wasnt anyone who could attack more than once in the combat phase

Also. Fhe activation rules in the rulebook specifying 1 activation per round were written before wave 8 released

There's about a 18 month cycle for a wave. So wave 8 was well in the works before those rules were released. Even if that weren't true, that doesn't mean the rules as they currently are are very much RAI.

Also. Fhe activation rules in the rulebook specifying 1 activation per round were written before wave 8 released

There's about a 18 month cycle for a wave. So wave 8 was well in the works before those rules were released. Even if that weren't true, that doesn't mean the rules as they currently are are very much RAI.

I know ther'es a long development cycle, but they don't tend to give us any rules for future releases. And if the rules were better written around activation andt he combat phase it might not have caused as much controversy. And yes, it could well fit just fine with RAI, but we still need an FAQ entry to settle it once and for all, as opposed to just an email from Frank.