Now, it's kind of like, ugh, I really just wanted to run Dengar and have fun.

What's stopping you?

When I lost to U-Boats most recently, my opponent asked me why I had chosen to joust him. We had a good chat, and I explained that trying to arc dodge 3 scouts with a Firespray and a G1-A is just really tough (If not impossible), and that I would prefer to try and focus down a scout (And pray to the dice gods) rather than trying to 'arc dodge' with ships that are clearly not arc dodgers.

How did you set up?

Perhaps add a limitation of "once per attack/round" to R4 Agromech?

You are trying to fix a problem doesn't exist. Please show me a list that is winning that is using Recon Specialist for multiple TLs.

I already tried to put forward nixing the zero result rule for tokens, but that seemed ludicrous somehow. I'm not sure why exactly that seemed dumb but it did so...

Hey, like I said last time, it's not any one card that makes U-Boats so deadly, it's the combinations. To my mind the easiest and most natural way to "fix" the OP Wolf Pack is to require players to roll the necessary results on their die in order to make use of their sweet combo. That didn't seem so crazy before and it still doesn't now, but hey! If it's that important that the one X-Wing pilot gets to use his ability, then I guess it's worth letting U-Boat players do whatever they want with their tokens. Dice be damned! Lol.

But I digress. You know, I was one of the ones who was so excited for the JM. Now, it's kind of like, ugh, I really just wanted to run Dengar and have fun.

Now, sometimes the Jumpmasters may spend a focus to get a target lock when they roll blanks with their primary, but that's not really the problem.

How did you set up?

Opposite, and played by the rule of 11. I knew he'd have to send a ship forwards to block, otherwise I'd get into range 1. He watched me beat another scout list in the semi-finals by calling the block and focus firing one Jumpmaster, so I tried to do the opposite this game and rush range 1. He called my bluff, 2 of my ships got blocked and he lit me up.

I'm no master player, so I'd be happy for any advice TBH.

Perhaps add a limitation of "once per attack/round" to R4 Agromech?

You are trying to fix a problem doesn't exist. Please show me a list that is winning that is using Recon Specialist for multiple TLs.

I already tried to put forward nixing the zero result rule for tokens, but that seemed ludicrous somehow. I'm not sure why exactly that seemed dumb but it did so...

Hey, like I said last time, it's not any one card that makes U-Boats so deadly, it's the combinations. To my mind the easiest and most natural way to "fix" the OP Wolf Pack is to require players to roll the necessary results on their die in order to make use of their sweet combo. That didn't seem so crazy before and it still doesn't now, but hey! If it's that important that the one X-Wing pilot gets to use his ability, then I guess it's worth letting U-Boat players do whatever they want with their tokens. Dice be damned! Lol.

But I digress. You know, I was one of the ones who was so excited for the JM. Now, it's kind of like, ugh, I really just wanted to run Dengar and have fun.

But the combo has nothing to do with what you seem to be obsessed with. As in, there has not been exactly been a plethora of Recon Specialists and R4 Agromechs. What you seem obsessed with would have 0 impact on how U boats work.

First off, there's the large base, which is a nuisance when you're running multiples of a ship (Especially when you lack any action-independant dice modifications like Autothrusters or FCs to free up your action for repositioning like Brobots).

Sure. But speaking of brobots, you know what's a nuisance? Dodging three large-based ships on the other side of the board, all of which can barrel roll for a block if so inclined. Oh, and their dial is as good as yours, if not better (white 2 sloop v red 3 sloops...eh).

It's doable! It's just annoying. Very annoying.

Having Advanced Sensors kind of turns the blocking to the Brobots' advantage though. If Brobots can break up the alpha they are hell for U-Boats to try and damage with their turrets.

Advanced sensors is an advantage against Scouts but a serious disadvantage against Palpatine and Friends relative to FCS. Like, AdvS has less of a positive effect v Scouts than FCS does v Aces so it's difficult to justify the switch, particularly when more of the dangerous local players run aces than scouts.

Goober's Mindlink suggestion is worth a look, though my initial reaction is skepticism that it'll be more consistently useful than crackshot.

Let's do a little thought exercise: if Deadeye is unique, in what capacity do you see ordnance still useful?

Lots of capacities? Thread tracers, Blount, Cracken, and various other ways to enable wingmen would still exist. A lone reactive ordnance boat would have a place in many lists, whether for stripping shields or delivering boba-powered crits. LRS would exist. Procket carriers exist. Etc etc.

If Deadeye is unique, the very top end of all-ordnance lists is nudged down. I don't think nudged down enough to mean ordnance would no longer be useful, whether en masse or on a single missile boat.

Given on Prockets carriers.

Blount and Cracken, so rebel list. Rebel lists people could be flying right now, and yet they don't. Maybe because they don't consider them good enough ?

Tracers only work on z-95 swarms or the like IMO and even there it's not great: you're losing a ship's firepower to to set this up, so you likely want that ship to be as cheap as possible but on the other hand, you NEED it to survive until it shoots (which is not a given on a cheap ship) and then have a significant number of your ships in range 1-2 of the tracers carrier and with the same enemy in arc. It's too many 'ifs' and 'buts' for a competitive list.

The problem with LRS is that they use the same slot as Chips, which cuts on your dice modification. If you drop chips and need to use a target lock (acquired from LRS) to fire (and therefore can't trigger the r4 for Scouts for example) you end up shooting (almost) unmodified torps, which is not very effective.

I'm also a bit skeptical about using a lone torp scout to push Boba crits instead of a Slaver with Boba, Dengar and Tactician, which does the Crit part just about as well, but has way more utility after the 2nd shot.

So sounds like to me best strategy against uBoats is asteroids

Set them up so they cant maneuver well.

I tried this in my last game [against Dengar, not CS] using the layout suggested in another thread here...and my opponent still managed to sloop and turn around and through them to move towards the centre of the mat...

...and in a previous match against 3x CS with Dash+Miranda, he managed similar flying between Asteroids and the Cluster Mines that I'd laid between the gaps in them - in that one Dash ended up backed into a corner by all 3, unable to move and slowly pecked to death by the one CS turret that could fire,

I'm not saying that flying them doesn't take skill - my opponent has far better 'spatial awareness' [at loss for a better term] than I...but that dial seems just a little too good at times [esp. the white sloop followed by a corresponding bank to essentially turn through 180 in two moves, whilst retaining actions].

As has been said elsewhere, the power is in the combinations...both cards/tokens & dials...but you do have to know how to use them...

It is true that the dial is too good. I'd be fine with the strong side being what it is, but its a missed opportunity that the other side isn't more like an HWK.

The thing that works best against scouts is astroid placement and dictating where the first encouter will be. Preferably luring the Scouts through astroids. Remember that range 1 is your best friend!

It is true that the dial is too good. I'd be fine with the strong side being what it is, but its a missed opportunity that the other side isn't more like an HWK.

Agreed. The dial winds me up a bit, to be honest with you. It's way too good - compared other ordnance carriers, such as punisher, K-wing, y-wing and bomber, it's just leagues ahead.

That, on top of it's extreme points efficiency, and it's too generous upgrade bar, makes this ship what it is - a ship that when kitted out with ordnance, marks a significant step up in the game's points-to-power efficiency, imo. Other lists can compete - those that were right at the top of the pack anyway - and i'm really happy to see a generic ship ordnance list capable of smashing face, so it's not doom and gloom by any means.

But at the same time, I think it important not to stick your fingers in your ears and go 'nah nah nah, I can't hear you!' ... the ship is very powerful, and removes a lot of archetypes from the table, in terms of competition-viable lists. That's the big downside, I guess.

Now, it's kind of like, ugh, I really just wanted to run Dengar and have fun.

What's stopping you?

PWTs are almost dead since Autothrusters, TLTs and UUU are here

[iMAGE REMOVED BY FORUM MODERATOR.]

It is true that the dial is too good. I'd be fine with the strong side being what it is, but its a missed opportunity that the other side isn't more like an HWK.

Agreed. The dial winds me up a bit, to be honest with you. It's way too good - compared other ordnance carriers, such as punisher, K-wing, y-wing and bomber, it's just leagues ahead.

That, on top of it's extreme points efficiency, and it's too generous upgrade bar, makes this ship what it is - a ship that when kitted out with ordnance, marks a significant step up in the game's points-to-power efficiency, imo. Other lists can compete - those that were right at the top of the pack anyway - and i'm really happy to see a generic ship ordnance list capable of smashing face, so it's not doom and gloom by any means.

But at the same time, I think it important not to stick your fingers in your ears and go 'nah nah nah, I can't hear you!' ... the ship is very powerful, and removes a lot of archetypes from the table, in terms of competition-viable lists. That's the big downside, I guess.

I agree with most of what you say.

Thing is, this has been the state of X-wing for as long as I've known the game: Fat turrets largely removed anything that wasn't a fat turret (except Brobots) from the top tables at tournaments, then TLTs removed fat turrets from the competitive scene, Acewing removed most pilots with PS between 2 and 7 etc.

There seems to always be an 'you must be this tall to ride' archetype (a list that your list must be able to beat in order to consider it for competitive play), people will be unhappy with it and Alex Davy will keep saying that 'this is the most diverse meta ever'.

What I seem to be noticing is that 90%+ of the "this is a solid counter list" appear to be Imperial. Then we have some Scum counters. But what about Rebels? Are you relegated to A-Wing Crack swarms? Where are the solid Rebel counters?

And don't go pissing that I'm asking about the equivalent to an easy button. I just want to see what people think has a good chance of living through that first shooting encounter with the U-boats.

nothing really has a good chance of living through the first shooting encounter with u-boats

which is why you gotta make sure said encounter involves as few torps as possible

which is why A-wings do work

Funny enough, the Rebel way of surviving a U-boat encounter is a lot of imperial tricks. Which is to say:

High Token defence

or

Arc dodge.

Corran actually could do really well against a single Uboat attack at range 3, wiping off the attack and then getting into a more comfortable range 1.

You could also use Dash to his utmost and fly past the Uboats and ping them out of arc at range 3 with 4 attack while they struggle with two dice.

The other possibility? Throw two Lothals at them. 4 attack primary is no joke from two ships at 16 health.

Funny enough, the Rebel way of surviving a U-boat encounter is a lot of imperial tricks. Which is to say:

High Token defence

or

Arc dodge.

Corran actually could do really well against a single Uboat attack at range 3, wiping off the attack and then getting into a more comfortable range 1.

You could also use Dash to his utmost and fly past the Uboats and ping them out of arc at range 3 with 4 attack while they struggle with two dice.

The other possibility? Throw two Lothals at them. 4 attack primary is no joke from two ships at 16 health.

Two Lothals and Biggs flying in formation should own u boats as long as you get the approach right. Biggs can soak two to three torps with an extra die from Tactical Jammers whilst the Lothals unload.

High Token defence

or

Arc dodge.

or, option 3

What I seem to be noticing is that 90%+ of the "this is a solid counter list" appear to be Imperial. Then we have some Scum counters. But what about Rebels? Are you relegated to A-Wing Crack swarms? Where are the solid Rebel counters?

And don't go pissing that I'm asking about the equivalent to an easy button. I just want to see what people think has a good chance of living through that first shooting encounter with the U-boats.

It's quite easy to theorycraft good answers to Jumpmasters.

One approach is just to bring autothrusters:

1) Autothrusters 'turns off' a lot of the threat from their endgame turrets

2) Autothrusters require you to have a boost, and a boost helps you to manage the range and avoid torpedoes.

This is why the Rebel defense focuses on A-Wings. You are nails in the endgame, but in the initial encounter you are actually pretty happy eating a torpedo at Range 3 (3 green dice, focused, evade, Autothrusters... probably takes two torpedoes to bring you down), if you find yourself sitting at Range 2 you boost into Range 1. This ensures you get enough ships into the endgame to be able to capitalise on how bad the Jumps are once the Torpedoes are gone.

The other approach is to just throw so much hull/shield/defense down that the Torpedoes can't quite get through it all. These is where the Dash/Ghost lists come in, and I've also seen some very defensive Chewie/Ghost lists (Chewie with title, C-3PO & R2D2 crew means you ignore the first 3 damage each turn).

But it's no coincidence that all the other small rebel ships are gone. Poe, Corran, Red Ace, Stressbot... they're just juicy pinatas for the Jumpmasters. And TBH a lot of Scum are in the exact same boat - I wouldn't dare try and run a Firespray or YV-666 if I knew there was going to be Jumpmasters there in force.

Funny enough, the Rebel way of surviving a U-boat encounter is a lot of imperial tricks. Which is to say:

High Token defence

or

Arc dodge.

Corran actually could do really well against a single Uboat attack at range 3, wiping off the attack and then getting into a more comfortable range 1.

You could also use Dash to his utmost and fly past the Uboats and ping them out of arc at range 3 with 4 attack while they struggle with two dice.

The other possibility? Throw two Lothals at them. 4 attack primary is no joke from two ships at 16 health.

I'd upgrade one Lothal to Kanan with RecSpec. -1 die on 2 torps every turn is kind of a big deal.

IMO, the poblem isn't finding Rebel counters to triple scout, but finding Rebel counters that also do well vs. Palp Aces.

nothing really has a good chance of living through the first shooting encounter with u-boats

which is why you gotta make sure said encounter involves as few torps as possible

which is why A-wings do work

A Crack Swarm does. A Crack Swarm will joust the Jumpmasters all day long. Well, not all day because it won't take long for the Jumpmasters to run out of ships.

IMO, the poblem isn't finding Rebel counters to triple scout, but finding Rebel counters that also do well vs. Palp Aces.

This.

The Rebel Aces that kept the Palp Aces in check are Bantha fodder now. The Jumpmasters have gaping weaknesses to exploit, but making a list that exploits them without itself becoming unbalanced in other matchups is extremely difficult.

I think if someone put a gun to my head and forced me to play Rebels right now I would be on Dash/Ghost, and probably put Reinforced Deflectors on Ghost.

Like this?

Big Dogs (100)

Dash Rendar (53) - YT-2400

Determination (1), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Outrider (5), Engine Upgrade (4)

Kanan Jarrus (47) - VCX-100

Reinforced Deflectors (3), Autoblaster Turret (2), Recon Specialist (3), Hera Syndulla (1)

Like this?

Big Dogs (100)

Dash Rendar (53) - YT-2400

Determination (1), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Outrider (5), Engine Upgrade (4)

Kanan Jarrus (47) - VCX-100

Reinforced Deflectors (3), Autoblaster Turret (2), Recon Specialist (3), Hera Syndulla (1)

I'd weight a bit more towards Dash - he's your gamewinner, Ghost is there to soak up the torpedoes.

YT-2400: Dash Rendar (58)

Push The Limit, Heavy Laster Cannon, Outrider, Engine Upgrade, Kanan Jarrus

VCX-100: Lothal Rebel (42)

Reinforced Deflectors, Hera Syndulla, Ezra Bridger