My feeling is that Deadeye is really the problem. It entirely changes the way ordnance works, in a way that wasn't a problem when ordnance was inefficient. Now that ordnance is a fairly good investment, Deadeye is sort of the gold-standard for shooting torpedoes: you don't have to worry much about positioning or overkill. You get to defer all or most of your decision-making from Activation phase to Combat phase, and thats a huge advantage.

Probably. Making deadeye unique would solve the problem of a whole list of reactive ordnance carriers while still allowing you to bring one. LRS aren't going to be as powerful, as they require commitment and have a notable drawback.

Let's do a little thought exercise: if Deadeye is unique, in what capacity do you see ordnance still useful?

The argument of Pre-nerf Phantom would lose against Scout is inherently flawed in that large-based turret ships are the literal hard counter to Phantoms. It doesn't mean Scouts are more overpowered then Pre-Nerf Phantoms.

Agreed. Playing Phantoms quite a bit and turret ships, I can see the conundrum between effort and skill and cruising and dice throwing. In some of our games we've designed and added a simple modifier to turret ships. I cut out a clear plastic disk and created a directional dial that goes over the stem receiver location and sets a 120 degree red area of turret focus that spins independent of the direction of the ship (obviously). We play the rule that you set the target direction of your turret immediately after the movement phase. The rule then is attacks within the 120 degree arc by the turret are allowed full die attack and attacks outside the arc in the remaining 220 degrees get only half the dice. We think this modifier better simulates the gunner's ability to get a clear and steady shot at a target that he's tracking but not such a good shot at one that he has to swivel and find/target outside his original view.

....just an idea that works out pretty good.

Another point: regionals season is almost over, wave 8 has been out for a while, how long do you think it will take before we can make a "safe" evaluation of the current meta?

After Regionals and really after Imp Vetts comes out. People are generally going to take whatever is perceived as the strongest list to something like Regionals. So I'd say we'll see how it looks come times for national championships.

I think VS hits on a key issue here, that triple scouts has the same issue the Phantom did really. Not that anyone part of it is that strong but the combo is truly greater than the sum of it's parts. To be clear I'm not saying that the list isn't on the high end of the power scale, it clearly is. But it's also not nearly as bad as some people say...

What exactly are you trying to prove?

That according to Chief Hugh, the triple scouts require zero skill to win with. He came right out and said that the only thing they need to win is a focus token. Something you learn to do in your first game. It's comments like the one by Chief Hugh that are the issue here.

You're right but it was only making an exaggeration of my point.

It sounds like no one is in favor of nerfing ships or cards until they reach at least to pre-nerf phantom levels. My argument is that there is a zone between pre-nerf phantom and a balanced game. Scouts are in that zone or more towards phantom pre-nerf side of the spectrum then any other ship.

My argument is that there is a zone between pre-nerf phantom and a balanced game.

Of course there is, but you have yet to prove that the Scout is at a place where FFG need to do anything.

Just because something is at the top end of the power scale doesn't mean it's over powered. Also just because something is popular also doesn't mean it's over powered.

It's not that people don't want to nerf ships, it's that we don't feel this one needs to be nerfed at this point.

If you need to over exaggerate to that degree to make your point, that really means your point is pretty weak to start with.

My argument is that there is a zone between pre-nerf phantom and a balanced game.

Of course there is, but you have yet to prove that the Scout is at a place where FFG need to do anything.

Just because something is at the top end of the power scale doesn't mean it's over powered. Also just because something is popular also doesn't mean it's over powered.

It's not that people don't want to nerf ships, it's that we don't feel this one needs to be nerfed at this point.

If you need to over exaggerate to that degree to make your point, that really means your point is pretty weak to start with.

I don't have to exaggerate, it's just the route I took and it wasn't even that far off. All I'm saying is that the health of the game will be poor if FFG will only fix op ships or abilities if they reach the level of pre-nerf phantom.

So how does a whisper with Kallus and the emperor shuttle do against a tripple U-boat lists?

it's just the route I took and it wasn't even that far off.

If you actually think that massive exaggeration wasn't that far off, that the only thing the scout player needs is a focus to win... You understand this game so poorly you simply can not be taken seriously.

it's just the route I took and it wasn't even that far off.

If you actually think that massive exaggeration wasn't that far off, that the only thing the scout player needs is a focus to win... You understand this game so poorly you simply can not be taken seriously.

Really? Then why is one of the best strategies against scouts is to deny them a focus token via bumping or Carnor Jax? (one of the strategies not all).

Scouts do need a focus. Period. Even a player who according to you (even though we have never met/played each other) understands the game poorly can see that. I According to you scouts with or without focus tokens doesn't matter. Who really can't be taken seriously now?

Let's do a little thought exercise: if Deadeye is unique, in what capacity do you see ordnance still useful?

Lots of capacities? Thread tracers, Blount, Cracken, and various other ways to enable wingmen would still exist. A lone reactive ordnance boat would have a place in many lists, whether for stripping shields or delivering boba-powered crits. LRS would exist. Procket carriers exist. Etc etc.

If Deadeye is unique, the very top end of all-ordnance lists is nudged down. I don't think nudged down enough to mean ordnance would no longer be useful, whether en masse or on a single missile boat.

it's just the route I took and it wasn't even that far off.

If you actually think that massive exaggeration wasn't that far off, that the only thing the scout player needs is a focus to win... You understand this game so poorly you simply can not be taken seriously.

Really? Then why is one of the best strategies against scouts is to deny them a focus token via bumping or Carnor Jax? (one of the strategies not all).

Scouts do need a focus. Period. Even a player who according to you (even though we have never met/played each other) understands the game poorly can see that. I According to you scouts with or without focus tokens doesn't matter. Who really can't be taken seriously now?

You wrote "Scouts just require you to take a focus." I don't blame you for backing down from that ridiculous position because but you'll do yourself no favours by misrepresenting VanorDM's counter argument.

Deadeye scouts need a focus token, yes. As you've hinted they also need to not lose that focus token, or be denied the ability to gain it in the first place, and get the target in their arc at the right range. I'm not saying they're easy to beat but some discussion of how to fight them instead of rolling over and crying for the nerf-bat would make this a much more constructive debate.

See, the point of disagreement is where and how much they got wrong.

Calling the Scout on par with pre-cloaking change Phantoms is something I will extremely disagree with.

I'm confident most of us would agree on this.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I disagree. Fly the phantom with the pre nerf rules against the jumpers and it'll die in the same was as the post nerf-ers.

The original decloaking rules might actually be worse against Triple Jumpmasters than the new ones in the hands of a good Phantom player.

I didn't realize that Phantoms were having a particularly rough time with Jumpmasters.

I'm all in on a veteran Phantom player running against triple U-Boats and giving them more than they bargained for (as it seems in this thread that even beginner players can wipe up all the boards with triple U-Boats). I certainly enjoy my Phantoms; fun on a stick!

I'm not an experienced player at all, and I neither own a U-Boat yet nor have I played against one. Being pretty much ignorant, I'll ask the obvious question that's rattling in my mind right now: So if Crackshot or Deadeye is the card that makes triple U-Boats so killer (to happily resurrect an 80's term), then why not go after them with the leader of the Scum and take that away? I mean, if you're playing scum....

Perhaps add a limitation of "once per attack/round" to R4 Agromech?

it's just the route I took and it wasn't even that far off.

If you actually think that massive exaggeration wasn't that far off, that the only thing the scout player needs is a focus to win... You understand this game so poorly you simply can not be taken seriously.

Really? Then why is one of the best strategies against scouts is to deny them a focus token via bumping or Carnor Jax? (one of the strategies not all).

Scouts do need a focus. Period. Even a player who according to you (even though we have never met/played each other) understands the game poorly can see that. I According to you scouts with or without focus tokens doesn't matter. Who really can't be taken seriously now?

Denying actions is a solid strategy against any ship that is dependent on actions for damage or survival. If they didn't have Deadeye, you'd still want to bump so that they couldn't take a Target Lock. If you can deny U-Boats their focus tokens it really guts their alpha strike.

If the U-Boats get their tokens it doesn't mean that it's game over. U-Boat players need to maintain range and arc to get off those big shots and they need to maneuver three large base ships to maintain overlapping arcs. They also need to be able to block aces to be able to put much damage on them. They've got a limited number of shots that have a chance of scratching a ship like Soontir Fel and they need o make those count. If Soontir gets his actions, he can essentially ignore one torpedo a round, even if it comes up as all hits and crits.

You know who auto-loses against me when I'm playing my U-Boats? It's the guy that lets me turn the match into a joust. That's not the U-Boat being auto-win or overpowered, that's an opponent choosing to play to my squad's strength. Most squads will seem overpowered if you fall into doing what they want you to do.

See, the point of disagreement is where and how much they got wrong.

Calling the Scout on par with pre-cloaking change Phantoms is something I will extremely disagree with.

I'm confident most of us would agree on this.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I disagree. Fly the phantom with the pre nerf rules against the jumpers and it'll die in the same was as the post nerf-ers.

The original decloaking rules might actually be worse against Triple Jumpmasters than the new ones in the hands of a good Phantom player.

I didn't realize that Phantoms were having a particularly rough time with Jumpmasters.

I'm all in on a veteran Phantom player running against triple U-Boats and giving them more than they bargained for (as it seems in this thread that even beginner players can wipe up all the boards with triple U-Boats).

I'm not an experienced player at all, and I neither own a U-Boat yet nor have I played against one. Being pretty much ignorant, I'll ask the obvious question that's rattling in my mind right now: So if Crackshot or Deadeye is the card that makes triple U-Boats so killer (to happily resurrect an 80's term), then why not go after them with the leader of the Scum and take that away? I mean, if you're playing scum....

Taking their Torpedo away would probably be a better use of Fett. (cue debate on whether Fett triggers EM or not).

Perhaps add a limitation of "once per attack/round" to R4 Agromech?

I don't think that will really matter. Most of the U-Boats that people are complaining about don't have a way to use R4 Agromech more than once in a round anyways.

Perhaps add a limitation of "once per attack/round" to R4 Agromech?

For refrence page 8 for the R4 not activating more then once in a attack. And page 13 under modify dice for the rule on only rerollING once

I have to ask- have any of you complaining about U-boats ever flown the competitively? Because there's a fair bit to flying the list that might not be apparent when taking a casual look. First off, there's the large base, which is a nuisance when you're running multiples of a ship (Especially when you lack any action-independant dice modifications like Autothrusters or FCs to free up your action for repositioning like Brobots). 3 large bases is kind of the critical mass at which dogfights turn into a game of bumper cars, but even flying two jumpmasters close together after you lose the first is a headache if there are any obstructions involved (Seriously, try bringing two large bases' firing arcs to bear on the same point when one starts right behind the other. So much bumping).

I'm not saying it isn't a powerful list, or that it's as skill intensive as, say, Triple Aces (Where you have little room for error), but it's not just a matter of "take focus, win" any more than palp Aces is just "Pull 3 evades out of your backside, win".

Perhaps add a limitation of "once per attack/round" to R4 Agromech?

You are trying to fix a problem doesn't exist. Please show me a list that is winning that is using Recon Specialist for multiple TLs.

First off, there's the large base, which is a nuisance when you're running multiples of a ship (Especially when you lack any action-independant dice modifications like Autothrusters or FCs to free up your action for repositioning like Brobots).

Sure. But speaking of brobots, you know what's a nuisance? Dodging three large-based ships on the other side of the board, all of which can barrel roll for a block if so inclined. Oh, and their dial is as good as yours, if not better (white 2 sloop v red 3 sloops...eh).

It's doable! It's just annoying. Very annoying.

See, the point of disagreement is where and how much they got wrong.

Calling the Scout on par with pre-cloaking change Phantoms is something I will extremely disagree with.

I'm confident most of us would agree on this.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I disagree. Fly the phantom with the pre nerf rules against the jumpers and it'll die in the same was as the post nerf-ers.

The original decloaking rules might actually be worse against Triple Jumpmasters than the new ones in the hands of a good Phantom player.

I didn't realize that Phantoms were having a particularly rough time with Jumpmasters.

I'm all in on a veteran Phantom player running against triple U-Boats and giving them more than they bargained for (as it seems in this thread that even beginner players can wipe up all the boards with triple U-Boats). I certainly enjoy my Phantoms; fun on a stick!

I'm not an experienced player at all, and I neither own a U-Boat yet nor have I played against one. Being pretty much ignorant, I'll ask the obvious question that's rattling in my mind right now: So if Crackshot or Deadeye is the card that makes triple U-Boats so killer (to happily resurrect an 80's term), then why not go after them with the leader of the Scum and take that away? I mean, if you're playing scum....

The funny thing about Boba Crew is that the best platform for him is a U-Boat with Proton Torpedoes.

First off, there's the large base, which is a nuisance when you're running multiples of a ship (Especially when you lack any action-independant dice modifications like Autothrusters or FCs to free up your action for repositioning like Brobots).

Sure. But speaking of brobots, you know what's a nuisance? Dodging three large-based ships on the other side of the board, all of which can barrel roll for a block if so inclined. Oh, and their dial is as good as yours, if not better (white 2 sloop v red 3 sloops...eh).

It's doable! It's just annoying. Very annoying.

Having Advanced Sensors kind of turns the blocking to the Brobots' advantage though. If Brobots can break up the alpha they are hell for U-Boats to try and damage with their turrets.

First off, there's the large base, which is a nuisance when you're running multiples of a ship (Especially when you lack any action-independant dice modifications like Autothrusters or FCs to free up your action for repositioning like Brobots).

Sure. But speaking of brobots, you know what's a nuisance? Dodging three large-based ships on the other side of the board, all of which can barrel roll for a block if so inclined. Oh, and their dial is as good as yours, if not better (white 2 sloop v red 3 sloops...eh).

It's doable! It's just annoying. Very annoying.

Having Advanced Sensors kind of turns the blocking to the Brobots' advantage though. If Brobots can break up the alpha they are hell for U-Boats to try and damage with their turrets.

Shhh shhh, stop talking. Use FCS and Atanni Mindlink.

FCS makes getting blocked irrelevant. Attanni Mindlink acts as a sort of Advanced Sensors and allows your blocked Brobot a focus. It also allows slooped Brobots a focus.

D's Super Segnor makes it harder for your sloop to be blocked.

Begin every game in a fortress.

With Brobots it's quite easy to jump from out of range to range 1 on the joust. With focus evade Autothrusters they can also shrug off a single range 3 torpedo.

So sounds like to me best strategy against uBoats is asteroids

Set them up so they cant maneuver well.

You know who auto-loses against me when I'm playing my U-Boats? It's the guy that lets me turn the match into a joust. That's not the U-Boat being auto-win or overpowered, that's an opponent choosing to play to my squad's strength. Most squads will seem overpowered if you fall into doing what they want you to do.

What you've said here is 100% correct. Playing into a lists strengths is always a recipe for disaster. However, this line of reasoning only applies if you are bringing aces to the table.

With high PS, PTL aces, U-Boats can be dodged, for sure. However, not all lists have the ability to boost/barrel roll out of arc and be protected by tokens and/or Palp. Jumpmasters have a good dial (I would say above average) with some solid early re-positioning (With BR) and can cover a lot of ground quickly. There are a lot of ships that will struggle to get out of arc of 3 Jumpmasters.

When I lost to U-Boats most recently, my opponent asked me why I had chosen to joust him. We had a good chat, and I explained that trying to arc dodge 3 scouts with a Firespray and a G1-A is just really tough (If not impossible), and that I would prefer to try and focus down a scout (And pray to the dice gods) rather than trying to 'arc dodge' with ships that are clearly not arc dodgers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you have a list of jousters, do you really have an alternative other than jousting? Not complaining at all btw, I've enjoyed all the games I've played against U-Boats. Always a quick and intense game, one way or the other.

Perhaps add a limitation of "once per attack/round" to R4 Agromech?

You are trying to fix a problem doesn't exist. Please show me a list that is winning that is using Recon Specialist for multiple TLs.

I already tried to put forward nixing the zero result rule for tokens, but that seemed ludicrous somehow. I'm not sure why exactly that seemed dumb but it did so...

Hey, like I said last time, it's not any one card that makes U-Boats so deadly, it's the combinations. To my mind the easiest and most natural way to "fix" the OP Wolf Pack is to require players to roll the necessary results on their die in order to make use of their sweet combo. That didn't seem so crazy before and it still doesn't now, but hey! If it's that important that the one X-Wing pilot gets to use his ability, then I guess it's worth letting U-Boat players do whatever they want with their tokens. Dice be damned! Lol.

But I digress. You know, I was one of the ones who was so excited for the JM. Now, it's kind of like, ugh, I really just wanted to run Dengar and have fun.