"Regen a shield in hell ahahahahaha!"

Dude, its a game. Cannot we not condemn other gamers to eternal tournament?

Is that a tournament that goes on forever because everyone intentionally draws every round?

Maybe because they don't need fixing? Also they said in an interview somewhere that Wave 9 will have a hard counter to Scouts.

Stop complaining and learn to fly better against them.

Said all the ez-mode skating ordnance throwing uBoat players out there..

Everyone, including those playing them can see that the Contracted Scout is undercosted / overpowered for its point cost.

To me this is similar to Whisper pre-nerf, except with Whisper it was one mechanic that was the issue and here it is the mech,Chip + EPT (Deadeye) combo on a generic TURRET ship.

Now, Whisper made a splash, won a few tournaments and then it was Fat Hans all over the place in response to that for a year and Fat Han even took Worlds.

Now it is PalpAces in place of Fat Han, to counter uBoats.

The cycle continues until the Devs gets it right, if ever.

Spoken like someone how hasn't had to fly 3 large base ships and to get a killzone before. But again, anything that is top tier is "ez mode". Which is just outright idiotic and an attitude of bad players. Skill is needed to run anything well in this game. Even turrets.

I think playing against Palp aces is like playing the slot machines, and that is why people don't usually hate this list.

Sure, the game is rigged against you slightly from the start, but not so much so that you feel there's no point playing. Palp aces go for the long game, there are many exciting moments, sometimes you can get a nice block, or get lucky with an all-blank green roll... Even if it isn't completely fair, it makes for an interesting game.

U-Boats, on the other hand, just ROTFLstomp many squads. If you can't dodge the alpha damage, you just get shredded on the first pass, and after that the experience for you is that whatever's left of your squad gets mopped up. I assume it simply produces a NPE for many people.

There is a vast gulf between "My fun rebel squad lost against Palp aces, I managed to get some nice shots off, I killed Wampa, blocked and killed the Inquisitor but by then was down to one ship vs Omega and couldn't win, I should have made him a priority" and "My squad mostly blew up on the first pass and there's honestly nothing I could have done that would have changed the outcome".

And now you have to realize that this is what people have been asking for when they wanted ordnance to be competitive. Granted, they may not have realized it exactly, but ordnance is essentially an alpha strike concept. People didn't exactly realize what they were asking for, and not surprisingly, are unable to adapt.

Beware what you wish for.

Also they said in an interview somewhere that Wave 9 will have a hard counter to Scouts.

I'll admit I don't care much for that idea. If FFG thinks there's something wrong with them then they should address it with something other than a hard counter.

People didn't exactly realize what they were asking for, and not surprisingly, are unable to adapt.

I think the real issue is some people don't want have to bother trying to adapt, they want the old hotness to stay the new hotness. I've seen plenty of people saying they've had no issues beating triple scouts... Enough that clearly they can be beat.

It is simply part of the cycle I mentioned before where anytime and really every time something new comes out that is on the top end of the power scale, a group of people come here and whine about it. Bringing up the tired old saws of 'it's not fun to play against them' and such, and then demand that whatever it is be nerfed.

Most times they'll either make up stuff, ignore all the tournament results that show things aren't really that bad and attack anyone who dares to offer advice or suggestions on how to beat it. Normally with comments about how the people those posters are playing must all be bad, "because a well flown List X simply can't be beat"

People didn't exactly realize what they were asking for, and not surprisingly, are unable to adapt.

I think the real issue is some people don't want have to bother trying to adapt, they want the old hotness to stay the new hotness. I've seen plenty of people saying they've had no issues beating triple scouts... Enough that clearly they can be beat.

It is simply part of the cycle I mentioned before where anytime and really every time something new comes out that is on the top end of the power scale, a group of people come here and whine about it. Bringing up the tired old saws of 'it's not fun to play against them' and such, and then demand that whatever it is be nerfed.

Most times they'll either make up stuff, ignore all the tournament results that show things aren't really that bad and attack anyone who dares to offer advice or suggestions on how to beat it. Normally with comments about how the people those posters are playing must all be bad, "because a well flown List X simply can't be beat"

Funny, my impression is mostly that the "They're not OP, learn 2 play n00b" crowd is condescending. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

However, the designers (thankfully) have a more balanced approach. For example re TLT, Alex mentioned that it's "probably 1point undercosted" (same interview where they mention scout hardcounters in w9), but that it mostly does what they intended it to do. See, even the developers dont claim that they dont get it right 100% of the time, then why do you (not you personally)?

I see very few people claiming that Scouts "cant be beat". In fact, it seems quite the opposite, Palp Aces and Crack Swarms are established counters (as well as some others). I see the issue in the effect they have on the variety of the meta, they narrow down the number of viable lists and make for a less diverse meta overall. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

The designers just do their best to give us a balanced game under the constraint of limited ressources (design space, development cycles, playtesting time), it's humanly impossible for them to be right every time. Why would you claim any different?

See, the point of disagreement is where and how much they got wrong.

Calling the Scout on par with pre-cloaking change Phantoms is something I will extremely disagree with.

See, the point of disagreement is where and how much they got wrong.

Calling the Scout on par with pre-cloaking change Phantoms is something I will extremely disagree with.

I'm confident most of us would agree on this.

Funny, my impression is mostly that the "They're not OP, learn 2 play n00b" crowd is condescending.

Well after you have people posting after every single wave that Ship X is OP'ed and needs to be nerfed, it's hard to maintain a civil attitude sometimes. I'll agree that is the comment is nothing more than L2P, that that isn't helpful. But most times it's not as simple as that. It's people pointing out tournament results that show the ship or combo in question isn't doing as well as people are claiming, or offering advice now how to beat it.

But far too often those responses are treated as if they were nothing more than L2P n00b.

See, even the developers dont claim that they dont get it right 100% of the time, then why do you (not you personally)?

I don't think many if any are claiming that Alex and Frank are infallible, just that most times it's not as bad as some people claim.

I see very few people claiming that Scouts "cant be beat".

There's been a few of those in this thread. Like people claiming that a Ghost can be taken down with 3 torpedos.

I see the issue in the effect they have on the variety of the meta

Every wave is going to have an effect on the meta, and anytime they put out anything that is in the top end of the power scale, you're going to see a lot of people playing them. Just because a lot of people are playing something doesn't mean it's over powered or that the meta has shrunk. It may simply be that everyone wants to play with their new toys.

People have been clamoring for years to see Ord useful, and now that it finally it is in at least one case... It's IMO quite natural to see lots of people using it.

Yes Crackswarms and Palp Aces are seen as good counters, but I don't accept at least quite yet there aren't other good counters to triple scouts out there. I'm not saying that the scout is perfectly balanced, but they're not unbeatable or really having as dramatic effect on the meta as some think.

They are the new hotness and everyone wants to play with the new hotness, but unless we get to the point the shiny has worn off and they're still dominating then I think any discussion about changes to them is premature.

My feeling is that Deadeye is really the problem. It entirely changes the way ordnance works, in a way that wasn't a problem when ordnance was inefficient. Now that ordnance is a fairly good investment, Deadeye is sort of the gold-standard for shooting torpedoes: you don't have to worry much about positioning or overkill. You get to defer all or most of your decision-making from Activation phase to Combat phase, and thats a huge advantage.

See, the point of disagreement is where and how much they got wrong.

Calling the Scout on par with pre-cloaking change Phantoms is something I will extremely disagree with.

I'm confident most of us would agree on this.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I disagree. Fly the phantom with the pre nerf rules against the jumpers and it'll die in the same was as the post nerf-ers.

I see the issue in the effect they have on the variety of the meta

Every wave is going to have an effect on the meta, and anytime they put out anything that is in the top end of the power scale, you're going to see a lot of people playing them. Just because a lot of people are playing something doesn't mean it's over powered or that the meta has shrunk. It may simply be that everyone wants to play with their new toys.

People have been clamoring for years to see Ord useful, and now that it finally it is in at least one case... It's IMO quite natural to see lots of people using it.

Yes Crackswarms and Palp Aces are seen as good counters, but I don't accept at least quite yet there aren't other good counters to triple scouts out there. I'm not saying that the scout is perfectly balanced, but they're not unbeatable or really having as dramatic effect on the meta as some think.

They are the new hotness and everyone wants to play with the new hotness, but unless we get to the point the shiny has worn off and they're still dominating then I think any discussion about changes to them is premature.

About that Meta: I dont see many complaints about ordnance per se since it's mostly just one ship having great success with the deadeye/argo(overclocked) combo. It's great that ordnance has a place in the game now, but what we see is mostly just 1 ship reaping the benefits because it's the superior ordnance carrier. Which sounds weird when there are dedicated bombers in the game. It's just so good when all you need is a focus token to be super flexible with your ordnance. Maybe long range scanners will change that, we will see.

Another point: regionals season is almost over, wave 8 has been out for a while, how long do you think it will take before we can make a "safe" evaluation of the current meta?

See, the point of disagreement is where and how much they got wrong.

Calling the Scout on par with pre-cloaking change Phantoms is something I will extremely disagree with.

I'm confident most of us would agree on this.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I disagree. Fly the phantom with the pre nerf rules against the jumpers and it'll die in the same was as the post nerf-ers.

Bingo.

Stop complaining and learn to fly better against them.

Said all the ez-mode skating ordnance throwing uBoat players out there..

Everyone, including those playing them can see that the Contracted Scout is undercosted / overpowered for its point cost.

To me this is similar to Whisper pre-nerf, except with Whisper it was one mechanic that was the issue and here it is the mech,Chip + EPT (Deadeye) combo on a generic TURRET ship.

Now, Whisper made a splash, won a few tournaments and then it was Fat Hans all over the place in response to that for a year and Fat Han even took Worlds.

Now it is PalpAces in place of Fat Han, to counter uBoats.

The cycle continues until the Devs gets it right, if ever.

Except Palp Aces was there before U-boats and it has only gotten better by adding more options (Wampa, OL, Inquisitor, soon Vessery). Why do you think Palp Aces is less of a problem than U-boats?

I don't think there are many calling imperial aces OP because even with Palp they take a high amount of skill to be successful. Scouts just require you to take a focus. Something a new player can do in his first game.

Just like that. Take 3xJM5K to any regional and win it. No skill necessary. If it is that easy perhaps you could take them to the regional of your choice and auto win it. Let us know which regional you choose so we can follow your cake walk to victory.

Stop complaining and learn to fly better against them.

Said all the ez-mode skating ordnance throwing uBoat players out there..

Everyone, including those playing them can see that the Contracted Scout is undercosted / overpowered for its point cost.

To me this is similar to Whisper pre-nerf, except with Whisper it was one mechanic that was the issue and here it is the mech,Chip + EPT (Deadeye) combo on a generic TURRET ship.

Now, Whisper made a splash, won a few tournaments and then it was Fat Hans all over the place in response to that for a year and Fat Han even took Worlds.

Now it is PalpAces in place of Fat Han, to counter uBoats.

The cycle continues until the Devs gets it right, if ever.

Except Palp Aces was there before U-boats and it has only gotten better by adding more options (Wampa, OL, Inquisitor, soon Vessery). Why do you think Palp Aces is less of a problem than U-boats?

I don't think there are many calling imperial aces OP because even with Palp they take a high amount of skill to be successful. Scouts just require you to take a focus. Something a new player can do in his first game.

Just like that. Take 3xJM5K to any regional and win it. No skill necessary. If it is that easy perhaps you could take them to the regional of your choice and auto win it. Let us know which regional you choose so we can follow your cake walk to victory.

There is no reasonable way one could make a serious reply to your post. What exactly are you trying to prove?

Another point: regionals season is almost over, wave 8 has been out for a while, how long do you think it will take before we can make a "safe" evaluation of the current meta?

After Regionals and really after Imp Vetts comes out. People are generally going to take whatever is perceived as the strongest list to something like Regionals. So I'd say we'll see how it looks come times for national championships.

I think VS hits on a key issue here, that triple scouts has the same issue the Phantom did really. Not that anyone part of it is that strong but the combo is truly greater than the sum of it's parts. To be clear I'm not saying that the list isn't on the high end of the power scale, it clearly is. But it's also not nearly as bad as some people say...

What exactly are you trying to prove?

That according to Chief Hugh, the triple scouts require zero skill to win with. He came right out and said that the only thing they need to win is a focus token. Something you learn to do in your first game. It's comments like the one by Chief Hugh that are the issue here.

I see the issue in the effect they have on the variety of the meta

Every wave is going to have an effect on the meta, and anytime they put out anything that is in the top end of the power scale, you're going to see a lot of people playing them. Just because a lot of people are playing something doesn't mean it's over powered or that the meta has shrunk. It may simply be that everyone wants to play with their new toys.

People have been clamoring for years to see Ord useful, and now that it finally it is in at least one case... It's IMO quite natural to see lots of people using it.

Yes Crackswarms and Palp Aces are seen as good counters, but I don't accept at least quite yet there aren't other good counters to triple scouts out there. I'm not saying that the scout is perfectly balanced, but they're not unbeatable or really having as dramatic effect on the meta as some think.

They are the new hotness and everyone wants to play with the new hotness, but unless we get to the point the shiny has worn off and they're still dominating then I think any discussion about changes to them is premature.

About that Meta: I dont see many complaints about ordnance per se since it's mostly just one ship having great success with the deadeye/argo(overclocked) combo. It's great that ordnance has a place in the game now, but what we see is mostly just 1 ship reaping the benefits because it's the superior ordnance carrier. Which sounds weird when there are dedicated bombers in the game. It's just so good when all you need is a focus token to be super flexible with your ordnance. Maybe long range scanners will change that, we will see.

Another point: regionals season is almost over, wave 8 has been out for a while, how long do you think it will take before we can make a "safe" evaluation of the current meta?

3 Gamma Squadron Vets with Jonus looks pretty scary.

Ordnance carrying generics without a way to fire their ammo first round aren't competitively viable IMO, which makes LRS or Deadeye kind of mandatory. This narrows down the range of competitive ordnance carriers considerably (especially since, if you use LRS you need to get a source of Dice Modification somewhere else (like Jonus)

Stop complaining and learn to fly better against them.

Said all the ez-mode skating ordnance throwing uBoat players out there..

Everyone, including those playing them can see that the Contracted Scout is undercosted / overpowered for its point cost.

To me this is similar to Whisper pre-nerf, except with Whisper it was one mechanic that was the issue and here it is the mech,Chip + EPT (Deadeye) combo on a generic TURRET ship.

Now, Whisper made a splash, won a few tournaments and then it was Fat Hans all over the place in response to that for a year and Fat Han even took Worlds.

Now it is PalpAces in place of Fat Han, to counter uBoats.

The cycle continues until the Devs gets it right, if ever.

Except Palp Aces was there before U-boats and it has only gotten better by adding more options (Wampa, OL, Inquisitor, soon Vessery). Why do you think Palp Aces is less of a problem than U-boats?

I don't think there are many calling imperial aces OP because even with Palp they take a high amount of skill to be successful. Scouts just require you to take a focus. Something a new player can do in his first game.

Just like that. Take 3xJM5K to any regional and win it. No skill necessary. If it is that easy perhaps you could take them to the regional of your choice and auto win it. Let us know which regional you choose so we can follow your cake walk to victory.

There is no reasonable way one could make a serious reply to your post. What exactly are you trying to prove?

The only thing he is proving there is a lack of understanding the scout list. I think it is well established by now that getting ships into your arcs is not a trivial task as a generic that can't even reposition (if they want to actually shoot).

Edit: Whoops, got confused in the quote cf!

3 Gamma Squadron Vets with Jones looks pretty scary.

Ordnance carrying generics without a way to fire their ammo first round aren't competitively viable IMO, which makes LRS or Deadeye kind of mandatory. This narrows down the range of competitive ordnance carriers considerably (especially since, if you use LRS you need to get a source of Dice Modification somewhere else (like Jonus)

Jonus is a trap. If you drop him and upgrade all your Missiles to Homing Missiles, it's cheaper and better in every regard. If Jonus dies (which he will very soon) then you lose all modifiers. Homing Missiles for 4 are cheaper than Jonus. They all get to modify their dice, unlike Jonus. You can re-roll as many dice as you want, and not just 2 of them. You don't have to fly in R1 of Jonus. They don't get to use an Evade token.

If you go with Deadeye and Homing Missiles, you can get 3 with Extra Munitions and GC. That means you have just enough to get a Scimitar w/ Concussion, GC, EM, and LRS.

Another thing I find funny. The other talk is about how they have limited the meta. Before wave 8, it was either ps 2 and below or ps 7 w/ vi and ps 8+. Everything else in the middle was not used that much. Now with the scouts out ps 3 to ps 6 ships are seeing way more use then before.

Meta has changed. Adapt or die.

See, the point of disagreement is where and how much they got wrong.

Calling the Scout on par with pre-cloaking change Phantoms is something I will extremely disagree with.

I'm confident most of us would agree on this.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I disagree. Fly the phantom with the pre nerf rules against the jumpers and it'll die in the same was as the post nerf-ers.

The original decloaking rules might actually be worse against Triple Jumpmasters than the new ones in the hands of a good Phantom player.

I didn't realize that Phantoms were having a particularly rough time with Jumpmasters.

3 Gamma Squadron Vets with Jones looks pretty scary.

Ordnance carrying generics without a way to fire their ammo first round aren't competitively viable IMO, which makes LRS or Deadeye kind of mandatory. This narrows down the range of competitive ordnance carriers considerably (especially since, if you use LRS you need to get a source of Dice Modification somewhere else (like Jonus)

Jonus is a trap. If you drop him and upgrade all your Missiles to Homing Missiles, it's cheaper and better in every regard. If Jonus dies (which he will very soon) then you lose all modifiers. Homing Missiles for 4 are cheaper than Jonus. They all get to modify their dice, unlike Jonus. You can re-roll as many dice as you want, and not just 2 of them. You don't have to fly in R1 of Jonus. They don't get to use an Evade token.

If you go with Deadeye and Homing Missiles, you can get 3 with Extra Munitions and GC. That means you have just enough to get a Scimitar w/ Concussion, GC, EM, and LRS.

I like to think of it more as, Jonus is Biggs.

The argument of Pre-nerf Phantom would lose against Scout is inherently flawed in that large-based turret ships are the literal hard counter to Phantoms. It doesn't mean Scouts are more overpowered then Pre-Nerf Phantoms.

Large based primary turrets, with 3 Atk. Also, PS 9+.

Good luck punching through Whisper with only 2 Atk.

My feeling is that Deadeye is really the problem. It entirely changes the way ordnance works, in a way that wasn't a problem when ordnance was inefficient. Now that ordnance is a fairly good investment, Deadeye is sort of the gold-standard for shooting torpedoes: you don't have to worry much about positioning or overkill. You get to defer all or most of your decision-making from Activation phase to Combat phase, and thats a huge advantage.

Probably. Making deadeye unique would solve the problem of a whole list of reactive ordnance carriers while still allowing you to bring one. LRS aren't going to be as powerful, as they require commitment and have a notable drawback.

Good luck punching through Whisper with only 2 Atk.

Whisper wouldn't need VI. So some other Elite talent.

Could always cloak before being shot, and I'd like my odds of 4 evade dice, evade token and focus vs 2 attack. A lot better then a large ship with 2 defense dice vs 4 attack.

But again, why let facts, statistics and reasonable conditions get in the way of people's whining?

I mean because according to some, all you need to win with the Jumpmaster is a focus token. Get one of those and the other guy might as well fly his ships off the table apparently.

See that's my issue with these discussions... Things like that which are far too common get in the way of actual reasonable and productive discussion about what if anything is wrong.