It seems quite a few people in this thread are missing the point why Scouts are a meta problem. Even back in the day Whisper wasnt winning the majority of the tournaments because the few hard counters (mostly Han before Chiraneau arrived) were literally everywhere. The meta problem comes from the fact that it narrows squad choices down alot in competetive plays. Yes they have more counters than Whisper, but there were also a lot fewer ships and upgrade options at the time. Relatively speaking they might not have that many more counters than the Phantom.

Personally i think scouts will be dealt with either way, but it's a bit disheartening to see the designers missed the mark on key cards for two waves in a row (although TLT is rendered almost irrelevant by the arrival of scouts so it's no longer that big of an issue).

Really? TLT's are irrelevant? Tell that to my top 16 Regionals appearance using them this past weekend.

A jousting squadron finally reaches the level of shenanigans that Acewings can pull and it has to be nerfed.

The one thing you can count on, is that the current hotness in the meta will always cause a call for nerfs by someone.

DE/R4 also negates that so-called weakness of the JM where once it has spent it's ordnance it's merely a 2 dice pwt. So let's say we're running a CS with DE, R4 and Rec Spec. Now I don't care about spending ordnance because once it's gone I'll be putting two hits on you every round. Roll 3 blanks, spend focus #1(to modify nothing), grab TL, reroll into focus, spend focus #2, grab TL again.

That's 3 points for FCS on crack cocaine plus accuracy correction?

See the ball? See FFG adroitly allowing it to fall uninterrupted to the floor?

... Yeah.

You understand that if that combo was good, we would have seen it already, right? You are spending 3 pts and a crew slot for this combo. That is still a lesser version of Accuracy Correcter. And if 2 Atk primaries were so great with TL and Focus, which is what this essentially is, why is the Outrider not running PTL without the title?

As it stands DE+R4 (and RecSpec) is horribly unbalanced and it has nothing to do with the cards themselves

That's 6 points of upgrade that require filling three slots and being able to spend an action. I don't see how that is broken at all.

Six points to say 'I don't care what I've just rolled, I'll spend a token to gain another token so I can reroll my dice so that I have better results to spend my other token on. Oh look, I got to spend my other token, now I'll reapply that first token again.'

There are a lot of upgrades that gets you a Reroll+Focused attack each round much cheaper. This is list is just off the top of my head:

3 points:

Dengar

Predator

PTL

K4 Security Droid

2 pts:

Kyle Katarn

FCS

Well, I think if bombers were going to be the next hotness, we'd be seeing it in playtesting, heck, we'd be seeing it in tournaments with Gamma-chipped lists.

They get to field four, and they get a ps bump, so 4 gammas might well be able to do a number on triple scouts. Maybe.

But zero shields and no retaliation for dodge/range one puts them in a different league to scouts. As is being argued above, hyper accurate pwts after your torps are away is quite a big deal. Sure, they won't put a dent in autothrusters or Whisper, but against every other type of ship they are still a considerable threat. Not so the Gammas. Once they've spiked they're very limited in what they bring to the table for 25pts+...

BTW I love bombers, they are classy as hell. Just, I don't thinkthey'll feature in future "ffg plz nerf X" threads, unlike the superduper defenders.

A jousting squadron finally reaches the level of shenanigans that Acewings can pull and it has to be nerfed.

The one thing you can count on, is that the current hotness in the meta will always cause a call for nerfs by someone.

Should we start the Nerf the Defender thread now?

Important to remember that complaining and balance are pretty much unrelated. I'm sure they're keeping an eye on the situation and on the tourney results, which are the reliable way to look at power levels and balance.

Chief Hugh, on 16 May 2016 - 03:56 AM, said:

My question is this. Do the scouts or any card for the matter have to be as over powered as the TIE Phantom pre-nerf for FFG to consider fixing them as well? They said a counter is coming in wave 9 but why would we want a counter for something broken? Just fix the issue and let wave 9 come as it may. Are the scouts as broken as the TIE Phantom was? No. But look what they have done to the meta. Look at how many ships are no longer competitive. Why are we at wave 8 and they still give us broken ships? My nerf for the scouts is to eliminate their EPT slot. They would still be a good ship even with that gone.

The scout is not broken. Your incorrect in saying it is.

The Phantom Was given a native 4 attack, which is too high AND the advanced cloaking device combined with the cloaking mechanic at the time made it BROKEN.

The scout has limited attack with 2 dice and has only so many shots with missiles. Again not broken. The fault for your experience lies within yourself. Probably both lack of skill and your predefined vision of what this game HAS to be.

If I am incorrect then the game designers are incorrect. Alex was interviewed by Nova squadron or scum and villainy pod cast (can't remember which) saying that the scout in undercosted. You need to reread my original post because you obviously skipped some lines. I clearly said that the scout is not as broken as the phantom. Yet it is clearly more valuable then almost any other ship at that cost range. If you know of a more efficient ship that can do everything the scout can do then please let me know so I can use it for my next game. The scouts 2 die attack is not relevant when it's throwing torpedo's at you with the efficiency and ease provided by it's ept. My experience has nothing to do with it although I have been playing since right before wave 3.

Your logic that skill and predefined vision of the game is unsound so go back to the drawing board and try again. Insulting a players skill level is a piss poor tactic to try a prove a point.

Just because they undercost something doesn't mean they are going to nerf it, though. They admitted the B-wing was under costed and didn't do anything to change that ship.

Just because they undercost something doesn't mean they are going to nerf it, though. They admitted the B-wing was under costed and didn't do anything to change that ship.

Right, undercosted does not equal broken.

Maybe if we could nix the part about being able to spend tokens to mod zero results this DE + R4 combo wouldn't be so broken?

Never liked that rule, not one bit. Never liked it when Garven did it and I sure as hell think it's immersion breaking on a combo like DE + R4!

Make players roll the needed result in order to spend their tokens and you'll see a lot less all-hit attacks from those JMs.

Nope, because Deadeye/R4 would still work, as the combo happens when you spend the focus via Deadeye to fire in the first place.

It would nerf Dengar/RecSpec/R4, but that doesn't need nerfing.

They get their 4 hits without spending focus at all - average roll is hheb, the eye becomes a crit, and the blanks gets Chipped into a hit.

DE/R4 also negates that so-called weakness of the JM where once it has spent it's ordnance it's merely a 2 dice pwt. So let's say we're running a CS with DE, R4 and Rec Spec. Now I don't care about spending ordnance because once it's gone I'll be putting two hits on you every round. Roll 3 blanks, spend focus #1(to modify nothing), grab TL, reroll into focus, spend focus #2, grab TL again.

That's 3 points for FCS on crack cocaine plus accuracy correction?

See the ball? See FFG adroitly allowing it to fall uninterrupted to the floor?

... Yeah.

A scout with torps gone is only "putting two hits per round" on a subset of targets. If there are interceptors or regenerators up then that scout is boned.

Exactly, I see using R4 on a Scout's turret shot as a 'win-more' sort of upgrade. It provides more consistent results against the type of ships that a 2 dice PWT was already strong against but doesn't do a lot against the sorts of things that they struggle with.

Just because they undercost something doesn't mean they are going to nerf it, though. They admitted the B-wing was under costed and didn't do anything to change that ship.

Agreed, but have you ever heard of a broken ship being over costed? I'm saying that their cheap value with everything they can do is a contributing factor of its brokenness. I said from the beginning that giving them an ept was a bad idea.

Another thing to keep in mind when we're asking for fixes, recosting, etc because of the new hotness is that it's going to take longer and longer and longer to find the way/the list to beat X list because there are more and more options. It's going to take casual pilots EVEN LONGER and that's the negative play experience that many feel.

Also, Scum has two DOA ships for most competitive purposes. Until the Scyk and Kfighter can see play we'll continue to see little list diversity in Scum..

Just because they undercost something doesn't mean they are going to nerf it, though. They admitted the B-wing was under costed and didn't do anything to change that ship.

Agreed, but have you ever heard of a broken ship being over costed? I'm saying that their cheap value with everything they can do is a contributing factor of its brokenness. I said from the beginning that giving them an ept was a bad idea.

I don't agree. I don't think it's broken. Just like TLT's aren't broken. I think it just shakes up the meta.

Just because they undercost something doesn't mean they are going to nerf it, though. They admitted the B-wing was under costed and didn't do anything to change that ship.

Agreed, but have you ever heard of a broken ship being over costed? I'm saying that their cheap value with everything they can do is a contributing factor of its brokenness. I said from the beginning that giving them an ept was a bad idea.

I absolutely love all this complaining about Scouts being undercosted.

What I love even more is this complaining about Deadeye.

Soontir, the Inquisitor, and other Acewings are undercosted as hell.

Maybe Deadeye wouldn't be so necessary if every ship a TL dependent ordnance boat faced wasn't forced to fire at the thing it locked only for that ship to ignore the manuever dial potion of the game and boost and barrel roll out of ordnance shots.

Then again, this game's community is filled with Han+Poe players who look down on quad TLT players because, "that list takes absolutely no skill".

I read some of the posts and it seems people aren't playing the same game I play. 4-5 torps to kill a VCX? it takes only 3: plasma is 4-5 shields. then protons is 4 with at least 1 crit, and another proton for 4 with at least another crit. next round a couple of turret shots will kill the VCX. that's 3 torps. the only way the VCX survives is if you don't get hit by 3 torps, by some clever moves to get into their range 1. but it's not easy to be at range 1 of all 3 scouts. chances are one will be at range 2.

the scouts are a hard counter to the VCX. you can win against them, but if you're both at the same skill level, the advantage is on the scouts.

I feel like the reputation of the U-Boats precedes them a little. I hadn't had the chance to play against them prior to a store championship a couple weeks back. I expected to be blown off the table within a few turns.......................... Instead, I had fun and competitive matches against all 3 triple U-Boats I went up against (Eventually lost to it in the finals). And this was with my janky Attanni Mindlink list.

Sometimes overestimating a list is as bad as underestimating it.

Another thing to keep in mind when we're asking for fixes, recosting, etc because of the new hotness is that it's going to take longer and longer and longer to find the way/the list to beat X list because there are more and more options. It's going to take casual pilots EVEN LONGER and that's the negative play experience that many feel.

Also, Scum has two DOA ships for most competitive purposes. Until the Scyk and Kfighter can see play we'll continue to see little list diversity in Scum..

"Looks at last weeks Regionals"

Good news...

And I have been seeing some nice variety in Scum lists. It's just people take a way to broad view of archetypes to see it.

I read some of the posts and it seems people aren't playing the same game I play. 4-5 torps to kill a VCX? it takes only 3: plasma is 4-5 shields. then protons is 4 with at least 1 crit, and another proton for 4 with at least another crit. next round a couple of turret shots will kill the VCX. that's 3 torps. the only way the VCX survives is if you don't get hit by 3 torps, by some clever moves to get into their range 1. but it's not easy to be at range 1 of all 3 scouts. chances are one will be at range 2.

the scouts are a hard counter to the VCX. you can win against them, but if you're both at the same skill level, the advantage is on the scouts.

Biggs w/ R4D6 and IA. Three torpedoes rapidly becomes five in that scenario. Throw Reinforced Deflectors, or even Sensor Jammer, into that mix, and six torpedoes isn't unlikely either.

I read some of the posts and it seems people aren't playing the same game I play. 4-5 torps to kill a VCX? it takes only 3: plasma is 4-5 shields. then protons is 4 with at least 1 crit, and another proton for 4 with at least another crit. next round a couple of turret shots will kill the VCX. that's 3 torps. the only way the VCX survives is if you don't get hit by 3 torps, by some clever moves to get into their range 1. but it's not easy to be at range 1 of all 3 scouts. chances are one will be at range 2.

the scouts are a hard counter to the VCX. you can win against them, but if you're both at the same skill level, the advantage is on the scouts.

Also, Kanan is a thing. Biggs is a thing. Wes is a thing. Ghost lists have plenty of options against U-boats.

blocking is a (the most important) thing

As are pretty great, turns out, as are boost Lothals with initiative

if you take a VCX with sensor jammer or deflectors, that's 40+ points for 4 unmodified. and against palpaces who always have focus tokens sensor jammer is almost useless.

so this "plenty of options" is Kanan, Biggs and Wes? and these are all great choices against the rest of the meta? maybe, but basically if you dont' want to fly Kanan?

I read some of the posts and it seems people aren't playing the same game I play. 4-5 torps to kill a VCX? it takes only 3: plasma is 4-5 shields. then protons is 4 with at least 1 crit, and another proton for 4 with at least another crit. next round a couple of turret shots will kill the VCX. that's 3 torps. the only way the VCX survives is if you don't get hit by 3 torps, by some clever moves to get into their range 1. but it's not easy to be at range 1 of all 3 scouts. chances are one will be at range 2.

the scouts are a hard counter to the VCX. you can win against them, but if you're both at the same skill level, the advantage is on the scouts.

... That's not what hard counter means. Also, you can't get two proton torpedo U-boats in the same list without sacrificing something important. Be it the second shot you really need to have a chance against brobots, or trading R4 Astrimech for the significantly worse Overcharged version.

Also, Kanan is a thing. Biggs is a thing. Wes is a thing. Ghost lists have plenty of options against U-boats.

Overclocked R4 is not significantly worse than R4 Agromech when you are taking Plama Torpedoes. Having a focus token to modify the Plasma Torpedo has the same odds of getting hits as if you had a target lock. The Overclocked R4 is acutally superior in situations where you need the Jumpmaster to survive long enough to get off its shot because it allows you to spend as many focus tokens as you need to defensively and still have a focus token for Deadeye and to modify your shot.

if you take a VCX with sensor jammer or deflectors, that's 40+ points for 4 unmodified. and against palpaces who always have focus tokens sensor jammer is almost useless.

so this "plenty of options" is Kanan, Biggs and Wes? and these are all great choices against the rest of the meta? maybe, but basically if you dont' want to fly Kanan?

Maybe you want to do some research. I mean, there is a rather large thread with Regional results. With quite a few different Ghost options.

But whining is easier than research or adaptation. God forbid the meta shifts and people have to adjust.

One thing I find rather tiring is how people tend to look at any given matchup in a vacuum, or worse assume best case for their 'side' and worse case for the other one.

Like assuming that out of 12 dice you'll score 12 success, which even with TL+Focus is fairly unlikely.