I already consider them more OP then the pre nerf Phantom. They are winning more and are a worse play experience.

Hahahahahahahahahaha.....no.

I mean yes, it is subjective of course, but really? I'd much rather have my ship die because I couldn't outmanouver PS3 slugs than have a game where my manouvers don't matter at all because the Phantom can just go anywhere that also is going to take forever. 86 Phantoms could take down a TIE swarm with little sweat. They wouldn't be shot at, if they were, 4 dice could usually prevent damage from 2 dice weapons, all that it came down to was how long it took them to kill all TIEs.

I'm still going to place a lot of this as people not realizing what it meant to have ordnance being competitive.

I already consider them more OP then the pre nerf Phantom. They are winning more and are a worse play experience.

Effective ordnance requires a different style of play. It really does change the game. Not for the worse, but just differently.

I already consider them more OP then the pre nerf Phantom. They are winning more and are a worse play experience.

Laughed harder than laws allow me to xD

NOTHING is a worse play experience than "1 hard turn and watch for their move" old whipster

And here we go again...

There are lists that do well against a large verity of other lists and are easier to fly than others. I still hold that the only ship that truly needed a nerf was the Phantom (it broke the game's movement rules in an unfair way). While duel Agressors and now triple Scouts seem too powerful they really are not. There are many lists and strategies that will do just fine against these and other lists.

This latest wave contains a plethora of game changing upgrades and pilots. I don't think the organized play scene has even scratched the surface yet. Keep playing with list ideas and trying new things. The game is in an amazing place right now with a lot of variety!

Just look at TLT's. Everyone said they broke the game and made it not fun. Now, U-boats came out and TLT's almost drop from game play. Just wait till people find the thing that beats them and Imp Aces and you will see their dominance gone.....to be replaced by the next thing everyone plays constantly.

While I agree with some of the sentiment that scouts are overdone, I think the perfect solution to the scouts problem (and for X-wing in general, going forward) is the Hangar Bay Format. X-wing will only become bigger, and will thus have more rocks-paper-scissors matchups. A reasonable player with two lists can avoid truly bad matchups. Any player afraid of 3 scouts (or 4 tlt's, or 3 defenders) can bring his normal lists and a second list tooled to fight the "nemesis du jeur" on at least an equal footing.

Also, I think scouts will become more sparse once imperial vets hit - deadeye gamma vets and titled defenders are quite good vs scouts, and since they'll be the new hotness, taking 3 scouts will be kinda like taking 4 TLTs now... risky.

If there is a wave 9 hard counter to munitions (that would be sad), deadeye EPT or focus tokens in general, that would be kinda like a TLT hard counter post-scouts: mostly redundant.

I'm now getting ready for "OMG PLZ NERF DEFENDERZ" threads

2 list format would be great if that would become a thing. You take what you play and like you said a counter to problem maybe

I personally find it amusing that we've had basically this same discussion since the days of wave 2 or so...

Back then it was what can be done to stop the swarm, then it was the summer of double pancakes, then it was B's, then the phantom menace and so on.

Every wave we have this discussion, only thing that changes is what ship we're talking about.

Because every wave will have the one ship or combo that becomes the new hotness which replaces the old hotness.

Maybe if we could nix the part about being able to spend tokens to mod zero results this DE + R4 combo wouldn't be so broken?

Never liked that rule, not one bit. Never liked it when Garven did it and I sure as hell think it's immersion breaking on a combo like DE + R4!

Make players roll the needed result in order to spend their tokens and you'll see a lot less all-hit attacks from those JMs.

Maybe if we could nix the part about being able to spend tokens to mod zero results this DE + R4 combo wouldn't be so broken?

Never liked that rule, not one bit. Never liked it when Garven did it and I sure as hell think it's immersion breaking on a combo like DE + R4!

Make players roll the needed result in order to spend their tokens and you'll see a lot less all-hit attacks from those JMs.

Nope, because Deadeye/R4 would still work, as the combo happens when you spend the focus via Deadeye to fire in the first place.

It would nerf Dengar/RecSpec/R4, but that doesn't need nerfing.

They get their 4 hits without spending focus at all - average roll is hheb, the eye becomes a crit because Proton Torpedo 9or gets rerolled with the TL from R4), and the blank gets Chipped into a hit.

Ghost, loses to Jumps easy (maybe if Biggs is in list and is positioned well, Ghost has a chance, else no chance with 0 agility)

That's an oversimplification right there. Ghost has 16 hit points to chew through so at minimum will require 4 torpedoes to take down and probably at least 5. That assumes no Kanan or defensive upgrades which means a cheap Ghost, probably under 45 points being used as a battering ram.

So the Scouts spend most/all their ordnance to burn down the Ghost but will take damage doing so (at least 2 rounds of fire from the Ghost plus its wingmen). You then have 3 (or more likely 2) damaged Scouts with little or no ordnance left facing 55-ish points of wingmen. Not a dead cert but a good rebel player could certainly win from that position.

Of course if the Ghost has any defensive mods it becomes much harder for the Scouts. Either Reinforced Deflectors or Sensor Jammer will reduce the maximum damage from each torp to 3 effectively so now the Scouts will need to spend their entire ordnance payload to wipe out the Ghost making dealing with the wingmen even harder. Add in Kanan with rec Spec and they might not even kill the Ghost at all. And all that is without even taking Biggs.

Chief Hugh, on 16 May 2016 - 03:56 AM, said:

My question is this. Do the scouts or any card for the matter have to be as over powered as the TIE Phantom pre-nerf for FFG to consider fixing them as well? They said a counter is coming in wave 9 but why would we want a counter for something broken? Just fix the issue and let wave 9 come as it may. Are the scouts as broken as the TIE Phantom was? No. But look what they have done to the meta. Look at how many ships are no longer competitive. Why are we at wave 8 and they still give us broken ships? My nerf for the scouts is to eliminate their EPT slot. They would still be a good ship even with that gone.

The scout is not broken. Your incorrect in saying it is.

The Phantom Was given a native 4 attack, which is too high AND the advanced cloaking device combined with the cloaking mechanic at the time made it BROKEN.

The scout has limited attack with 2 dice and has only so many shots with missiles. Again not broken. The fault for your experience lies within yourself. Probably both lack of skill and your predefined vision of what this game HAS to be.

Maybe if we could nix the part about being able to spend tokens to mod zero results this DE + R4 combo wouldn't be so broken?

Never liked that rule, not one bit. Never liked it when Garven did it and I sure as hell think it's immersion breaking on a combo like DE + R4!

Make players roll the needed result in order to spend their tokens and you'll see a lot less all-hit attacks from those JMs.

Nope, because Deadeye/R4 would still work, as the combo happens when you spend the focus via Deadeye to fire in the first place.

It would nerf Dengar/RecSpec/R4, but that doesn't need nerfing.

They get their 4 hits without spending focus at all - average roll is hheb, the eye becomes a crit, and the blanks gets Chipped into a hit.

DE/R4 also negates that so-called weakness of the JM where once it has spent it's ordnance it's merely a 2 dice pwt. So let's say we're running a CS with DE, R4 and Rec Spec. Now I don't care about spending ordnance because once it's gone I'll be putting two hits on you every round. Roll 3 blanks, spend focus #1(to modify nothing), grab TL, reroll into focus, spend focus #2, grab TL again.

That's 3 points for FCS on crack cocaine plus accuracy correction?

See the ball? See FFG adroitly allowing it to fall uninterrupted to the floor?

... Yeah.

Maybe if we could nix the part about being able to spend tokens to mod zero results this DE + R4 combo wouldn't be so broken?

Never liked that rule, not one bit. Never liked it when Garven did it and I sure as hell think it's immersion breaking on a combo like DE + R4!

Make players roll the needed result in order to spend their tokens and you'll see a lot less all-hit attacks from those JMs.

Nope, because Deadeye/R4 would still work, as the combo happens when you spend the focus via Deadeye to fire in the first place.

It would nerf Dengar/RecSpec/R4, but that doesn't need nerfing.

They get their 4 hits without spending focus at all - average roll is hheb, the eye becomes a crit, and the blanks gets Chipped into a hit.

DE/R4 also negates that so-called weakness of the JM where once it has spent it's ordnance it's merely a 2 dice pwt. So let's say we're running a CS with DE, R4 and Rec Spec. Now I don't care about spending ordnance because once it's gone I'll be putting two hits on you every round. Roll 3 blanks, spend focus #1(to modify nothing), grab TL, reroll into focus, spend focus #2, grab TL again.

That's 3 points for FCS on crack cocaine plus accuracy correction?

See the ball? See FFG adroitly allowing it to fall uninterrupted to the floor?

... Yeah.

You cannot grab a second target lock. Trigger is on attacking, so the first time you spend a focus you get the TL but not the second because you can only trigger an ability once per opportunity (which is on the attack, not on spending the focus). Besides, even if it worked like that, you'd be spending 5 points for an FCS equivalent, not 3 like you stated. Not broken in the slightest.

Maybe if we could nix the part about being able to spend tokens to mod zero results this DE + R4 combo wouldn't be so broken?

Never liked that rule, not one bit. Never liked it when Garven did it and I sure as hell think it's immersion breaking on a combo like DE + R4!

Make players roll the needed result in order to spend their tokens and you'll see a lot less all-hit attacks from those JMs.

Nope, because Deadeye/R4 would still work, as the combo happens when you spend the focus via Deadeye to fire in the first place.

It would nerf Dengar/RecSpec/R4, but that doesn't need nerfing.

They get their 4 hits without spending focus at all - average roll is hheb, the eye becomes a crit, and the blanks gets Chipped into a hit.

DE/R4 also negates that so-called weakness of the JM where once it has spent it's ordnance it's merely a 2 dice pwt. So let's say we're running a CS with DE, R4 and Rec Spec. Now I don't care about spending ordnance because once it's gone I'll be putting two hits on you every round. Roll 3 blanks, spend focus #1(to modify nothing), grab TL, reroll into focus, spend focus #2, grab TL again.

That's 3 points for FCS on crack cocaine plus accuracy correction?

See the ball? See FFG adroitly allowing it to fall uninterrupted to the floor?

... Yeah.

Guidance Chips (0)

I don't see how any of what you described is broken. If you are taking Proton Torpedoes and Extra Munitions, it's a 37 point ship. That's 2 points more expensive than the standard Soontir Fel, why shouldn't it be strong?

As for DE+R4 being a better version of FCS for a point more, that's not really true. You are tied to taking the focus action, and spending that focus on modifying your attack. You need to be able to take an action so stress or bumping will keep you from getting a focus or a TL.

The Phantom Was given a native 4 attack, which is too high AND the advanced cloaking device combined with the cloaking mechanic at the time made it BROKEN.

The Phantom had an unduly high unfluence on the meta due to a few things:

Decloak on revealing dial

VI

ACD

FFG chose to change the decloak point to earlier, quite possibly also because of the Scum upgrade that was surely in the works by then.

They could also have chosen to nerf the enabler of it all: VI.

Had Whisper not been able to go to 9, we'd never have seen the PS Wars that ensued, leading to the rise of Fat Han and the PWT's.

Maybe if we could nix the part about being able to spend tokens to mod zero results this DE + R4 combo wouldn't be so broken?

Never liked that rule, not one bit. Never liked it when Garven did it and I sure as hell think it's immersion breaking on a combo like DE + R4!

Make players roll the needed result in order to spend their tokens and you'll see a lot less all-hit attacks from those JMs.

Nope, because Deadeye/R4 would still work, as the combo happens when you spend the focus via Deadeye to fire in the first place.

It would nerf Dengar/RecSpec/R4, but that doesn't need nerfing.

They get their 4 hits without spending focus at all - average roll is hheb, the eye becomes a crit, and the blanks gets Chipped into a hit.

DE/R4 also negates that so-called weakness of the JM where once it has spent it's ordnance it's merely a 2 dice pwt. So let's say we're running a CS with DE, R4 and Rec Spec. Now I don't care about spending ordnance because once it's gone I'll be putting two hits on you every round. Roll 3 blanks, spend focus #1(to modify nothing), grab TL, reroll into focus, spend focus #2, grab TL again.

That's 3 points for FCS on crack cocaine plus accuracy correction?

See the ball? See FFG adroitly allowing it to fall uninterrupted to the floor?

... Yeah.

You cannot grab a second target lock. Trigger is on attacking, so the first time you spend a focus you get the TL but not the second because you can only trigger an ability once per opportunity (which is on the attack, not on spending the focus). Besides, even if it worked like that, you'd be spending 5 points for an FCS equivalent, not 3 like you stated. Not broken in the slightest.

"When attacking, after you spend a focus token, you may acquire target lock on the defender"

Where is the limitation? In the FAQ? If so, well then there is my point exactly. Print the card, realize it's broken, FAQ it? The trigger is not being activated multiple times within one window, it's a progression. Spending the first focus allows the TL to take place. When you have spent that TL and spent your second focus you now have the opportunity to trigger the combo again because the first instance has fully resolved. If FFG had realized the potential for this combo and wanted to limit it's use then R4 would say 'once per attack' and then you wouldn't be able to double up. As it stands DE+R4 (and RecSpec) is horribly unbalanced and it has nothing to do with the cards themselves but simply the rule that you can spend a token to modify zero results. Take that away and now the combo is still intact and still usable, but now you need to roll the correct results. Heresy? I hardly think so.

This hurts other ships who rely on spending tokens to pass those tokens off to other ships? Well I'm sorry but what did those ships do before this way a rule? If Garven didn't roll a focus to spend his token on he was SOL. What's the matter with that?

Let's see what happens once Imperial Vets comes out. Won't the Gamma Squadron Vet w/ Deadeye be even worse? Or possibly just different?

Just different.

I'd expect to see Gammas with LRS and Crack rather than Deadeye - what makes Deadeye so good is the combo with R4 Agromech.

Or Chimps and Jonus Shuttle.

Realistically though I'm expecting Vets to bring the Defenders, and a few Bomber Buddies. The actual offensive bombers I suspect will retain their current meta standings, more or less...

What makes Deadeye so good is that it gives you target flexibility. You aren't locked in to firing at a specific ship.

As it stands DE+R4 (and RecSpec) is horribly unbalanced and it has nothing to do with the cards themselves

That's 6 points of upgrade that require filling three slots and being able to spend an action. I don't see how that is broken at all.

Maybe if we could nix the part about being able to spend tokens to mod zero results this DE + R4 combo wouldn't be so broken?

Never liked that rule, not one bit. Never liked it when Garven did it and I sure as hell think it's immersion breaking on a combo like DE + R4!

Make players roll the needed result in order to spend their tokens and you'll see a lot less all-hit attacks from those JMs.

Nope, because Deadeye/R4 would still work, as the combo happens when you spend the focus via Deadeye to fire in the first place.

It would nerf Dengar/RecSpec/R4, but that doesn't need nerfing.

They get their 4 hits without spending focus at all - average roll is hheb, the eye becomes a crit, and the blanks gets Chipped into a hit.

DE/R4 also negates that so-called weakness of the JM where once it has spent it's ordnance it's merely a 2 dice pwt. So let's say we're running a CS with DE, R4 and Rec Spec. Now I don't care about spending ordnance because once it's gone I'll be putting two hits on you every round. Roll 3 blanks, spend focus #1(to modify nothing), grab TL, reroll into focus, spend focus #2, grab TL again.

That's 3 points for FCS on crack cocaine plus accuracy correction?

See the ball? See FFG adroitly allowing it to fall uninterrupted to the floor?

... Yeah.

Contracted Scout (25)

Deadeye (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Recon Specialist (3)

R4 Agromech (2)

Guidance Chips (0)

I don't see how any of what you described is broken. If you are taking Proton Torpedoes and Extra Munitions, it's a 37 point ship. That's 2 points more expensive than the standard Soontir Fel, why shouldn't it be strong?

As for DE+R4 being a better version of FCS for a point more, that's not really true. You are tied to taking the focus action, and spending that focus on modifying your attack. You need to be able to take an action so stress or bumping will keep you from getting a focus or a TL.

You know it's not so much the ship. It's just the rule that bothers me. the JM could be a low-fat muffin on the tabletop and I'd still decry this silly spend-it-on-nothing token rule. And yeah, it's not reaaaally like an FCS, but the way it works seems ludicrous. Again however, if you merely had to have a focus result in order to start the chain, well then it doesn't seem so bad. The idea that I can just throw down the dice and it doesn't matter a jot what I've rolled? Like, okay well then if that's the way the game is going, let's just skip the red dice and we'll only roll to see if some of the auto-hits are crits! Lol!

"When attacking, after you spend a focus token, you may acquire target lock on the defender"

Where is the limitation? In the FAQ? If so, well then there is my point exactly. Print the card, realize it's broken, FAQ it? The trigger is not being activated multiple times within one window, it's a progression. Spending the first focus allows the TL to take place. When you have spent that TL and spent your second focus you now have the opportunity to trigger the combo again because the first instance has fully resolved. If FFG had realized the potential for this combo and wanted to limit it's use then R4 would say 'once per attack' and then you wouldn't be able to double up. As it stands DE+R4 (and RecSpec) is horribly unbalanced and it has nothing to do with the cards themselves but simply the rule that you can spend a token to modify zero results. Take that away and now the combo is still intact and still usable, but now you need to roll the correct results. Heresy? I hardly think so.

This hurts other ships who rely on spending tokens to pass those tokens off to other ships? Well I'm sorry but what did those ships do before this way a rule? If Garven didn't roll a focus to spend his token on he was SOL. What's the matter with that?

I've bolded the important part for you. When attacking is the first part of the trigger, so you can only acquire a Target Lock once per attack, per the once per opportunity rules.

And if the change you suggest was implemented, it wouldn't do anything for Deadeye, and it would severely hurt the R4 aggromech and the ships that use it. Focus -> TL is inferior to TL -> Focus, and it has been costed accordingly. 5pts for the combo you are mentioning is a huge opportunity cost, both in points and crew/aggromech slots. Once again, this doesn't even come close to being broken.

"When attacking, after you spend a focus token, you may acquire target lock on the defender"

Where is the limitation? In the FAQ? If so, well then there is my point exactly. Print the card, realize it's broken, FAQ it? The trigger is not being activated multiple times within one window, it's a progression. Spending the first focus allows the TL to take place. When you have spent that TL and spent your second focus you now have the opportunity to trigger the combo again because the first instance has fully resolved. If FFG had realized the potential for this combo and wanted to limit it's use then R4 would say 'once per attack' and then you wouldn't be able to double up. As it stands DE+R4 (and RecSpec) is horribly unbalanced and it has nothing to do with the cards themselves but simply the rule that you can spend a token to modify zero results. Take that away and now the combo is still intact and still usable, but now you need to roll the correct results. Heresy? I hardly think so.

This hurts other ships who rely on spending tokens to pass those tokens off to other ships? Well I'm sorry but what did those ships do before this way a rule? If Garven didn't roll a focus to spend his token on he was SOL. What's the matter with that?

I've bolded the important part for you. When attacking is the first part of the trigger, so you can only acquire a Target Lock once per attack, per the once per opportunity rules.

And if the change you suggest was implemented, it wouldn't do anything for Deadeye, and it would severely hurt the R4 aggromech and the ships that use it. Focus -> TL is inferior to TL -> Focus, and it has been costed accordingly. 5pts for the combo you are mentioning is a huge opportunity cost, both in points and crew/aggromech slots. Once again, this doesn't even come close to being broken.

You bolded the timing window and not the trigger.

The attack isn't the opportunity. Spending the focus token during the attack is the opportunity. R4 can trigger once for each focus token that is spent.

As it stands DE+R4 (and RecSpec) is horribly unbalanced and it has nothing to do with the cards themselves

That's 6 points of upgrade that require filling three slots and being able to spend an action. I don't see how that is broken at all.

Six points to say 'I don't care what I've just rolled, I'll spend a token to gain another token so I can reroll my dice so that I have better results to spend my other token on. Oh look, I got to spend my other token, now I'll reapply that first token again.'

Hey look, I'm not saying you have to smash your toys. I'm just pointing out one of the real problems with the JM. We were all expecting a hard hitting ordnance carrier. We got that. I'm not complaining about that, hell I own one too! What bothers me about this build is that it totally negates the in-build weakness of the JM, which was it's supposedly pillow fisted PWT. All you had to do, theory went, was outlast or dodge the ordnance, and you had the game half in the bag. Now, thanks to this rule and this combo there is very little gap in the armour.

The real question is however, is would the JM (and other ships who rely on spending tokens to do extra work ie, Garven Dreis) be all that negatively impacted by changing the rule so that you could not spend tokens to mod zero results? And by this I mean would those ships become unplayable. Would they cease to be relevant pieces in this game?

I suspect the answer is no, but I also suspect that no one else cares. All I'm trying to do is point out a very real concern with the JM that I and others in my group have, and isn't that what we're here to do? Everyone has a problem with this ship and it's capabilities, but no one has any real evidence of how it's broken. They just eat 3 proton torps and don't know what hit them and come on here and blame the cost or the design, but with no real reason. Well truth is this. JM is supposed to cram 4 hits down your throat with a torpedo! That's what it does. It's good at it and we should all be happy that there is something out there for Scum that makes an impact. We should also be glad of ordnance in general making a comeback. But the Contracted Scout isn't just a ordnance slinger, it now also has the ability to punch it out when the torps are gone. And you know what, that's still okay. All I'm saying is that you ought to have to roll what you need in order to pull your shenanigans.

Also there is this. If any one ship in this game should be allowed to use ordnance that effectively and also be allowed to mix it up with a hyper accurate turret then it's going to have to be an ASSAULT GUNBOAT!

Maybe if we could nix the part about being able to spend tokens to mod zero results this DE + R4 combo wouldn't be so broken?

Never liked that rule, not one bit. Never liked it when Garven did it and I sure as hell think it's immersion breaking on a combo like DE + R4!

Make players roll the needed result in order to spend their tokens and you'll see a lot less all-hit attacks from those JMs.

Nope, because Deadeye/R4 would still work, as the combo happens when you spend the focus via Deadeye to fire in the first place.

It would nerf Dengar/RecSpec/R4, but that doesn't need nerfing.

They get their 4 hits without spending focus at all - average roll is hheb, the eye becomes a crit, and the blanks gets Chipped into a hit.

DE/R4 also negates that so-called weakness of the JM where once it has spent it's ordnance it's merely a 2 dice pwt. So let's say we're running a CS with DE, R4 and Rec Spec. Now I don't care about spending ordnance because once it's gone I'll be putting two hits on you every round. Roll 3 blanks, spend focus #1(to modify nothing), grab TL, reroll into focus, spend focus #2, grab TL again.

That's 3 points for FCS on crack cocaine plus accuracy correction?

See the ball? See FFG adroitly allowing it to fall uninterrupted to the floor?

... Yeah.

My question is this. Do the scouts or any card for the matter have to be as over powered as the TIE Phantom pre-nerf for FFG to consider fixing them as well? They said a counter is coming in wave 9 but why would we want a counter for something broken? Just fix the issue and let wave 9 come as it may. Are the scouts as broken as the TIE Phantom was? No. But look what they have done to the meta. Look at how many ships are no longer competitive. Why are we at wave 8 and they still give us broken ships? My nerf for the scouts is to eliminate their EPT slot. They would still be a good ship even with that gone.

You guys are acting quite ridiculously. The Scouts are not as scary or overpowered as you might believe and all they seem to have done is make the meta very interesting. People fear them (despite the fact that they aren't making event appearances in significant numbers) so they bring high agility ships like brobots or palp aces to deal with them. This makes people start bringing miranda bomber lists to ignore those ships dice, or TLT's to strip tokens or swarms.

If you are able, take a step back and try to get a little perspective.

My question is this. Do the scouts or any card for the matter have to be as over powered as the TIE Phantom pre-nerf for FFG to consider fixing them as well? They said a counter is coming in wave 9 but why would we want a counter for something broken? Just fix the issue and let wave 9 come as it may. Are the scouts as broken as the TIE Phantom was? No. But look what they have done to the meta. Look at how many ships are no longer competitive. Why are we at wave 8 and they still give us broken ships? My nerf for the scouts is to eliminate their EPT slot. They would still be a good ship even with that gone.

How about we nerf Soontir's ability to pull 4 evades out of a blank blank focus roll?

A jousting squadron finally reaches the level of shenanigans that Acewings can pull and it has to be nerfed.

How about we attack the Palp Aces players. You shouldn't be rewarded with an invincible ship just because you did a green hard 2 turn.