My question is this. Do the scouts or any card for the matter have to be as over powered as the TIE Phantom pre-nerf for FFG to consider fixing them as well? They said a counter is coming in wave 9 but why would we want a counter for something broken? Just fix the issue and let wave 9 come as it may. Are the scouts as broken as the TIE Phantom was? No. But look what they have done to the meta. Look at how many ships are no longer competitive. Why are we at wave 8 and they still give us broken ships? My nerf for the scouts is to eliminate their EPT slot. They would still be a good ship even with that gone.

I think they are afraid of customers reaction. Imagine how would react the one who bought three toilet seats specifically to play them with original rules and now, only month or so after, he hears that because of nerf his toys become useless.

That would be total outrage, also it would sent a wrong message, that company bends you over by forcing you to buy overpowered models and immadiately after that makes your buys useless.

Because it isn't that bad, problem with your analogy, if scouts are broken, first we most fix imperial aces. That list is warping the meta much more so then scouts. Funny how people are so willing to nay say one with out the other.

Here though, lies the problem. Both of these lists counter the typical deploy across from your opponent and joust to death mentality so many players have. You do that to either list, they will have an easy time just walloping you. Most ships are still in the meta, but much like most waves, people go to what is new and take the proven quantity.

YEAH. Look what they've done to the meta! They've given Scum an answer to Rebel Regen and PalpAces lists and made them semi-competitive! How dare they!

Seriously. Can we get over the "zomgz Scoutz OP, plz nerf" already? This is getting worse than Starcraft patch day reactions...

Scouts haven't warped the meta nearly as hard as vi whisper did. They have answers. Whisper had 1.

Again and again this argument goes in circles.

Jumpmasters aren't dominating top end competition so it's obviously not strictly a balance issue, but they ARE having a very negative effect on the viability of a lot of lists. It's like it's opened up a big gap between Tier I/II and Tier III/IV lists that previously wasn't so big that a bit of play skill or luck couldn't close it.

There's too much of the stuff that people just play because they like playing it which the Jumpmasters stomp all over in a way that isn't even fun to play the game and lose.

I don't think it matters very much if Jumpmasters are winning every tournament or not. They're clearly upsetting a whole segment of the player base who are just as heavily invested in the game as those at the sharp end of tournaments, and just as important for the long term health of the game. IMHO they need pulling down a notch just to open the lower Tier listbuilding back up a little bit.

The phantom was nerfed because it was a meta distorter: if you didn't bring a phantom counter you lost.

They still haven't 'fixed' TLTs I thought they were supposed to bring the end of days.

I have not yet played against a scout toilet seat yet, but it does seem strange why it is just so cheap. I compare the ship to the YT-2400 and 1300. The YT-2400 is fairly expensive across the board, even when you go for the generic pilot. The 1300 ship is stat nerfed when you go for the generic pilot.

I would had expected that the contracted scout would had been stat-nerfed too.

Too late now I suppose.

I have not yet played against a scout toilet seat yet, but it does seem strange why it is just so cheap. I compare the ship to the YT-2400 and 1300. The YT-2400 is fairly expensive across the board, even when you go for the generic pilot. The 1300 ship is stat nerfed when you go for the generic pilot.

I would had expected that the contracted scout would had been stat-nerfed too.

Too late now I suppose.

How often do you see yt-1300/2400 generics in tournaments? If Scouts were as bad as these, they'd be played as much as them.

YEAH. Look what they've done to the meta! They've given Scum an answer to Rebel Regen and PalpAces lists and made them semi-competitive! How dare they!

Seriously. Can we get over the "zomgz Scoutz OP, plz nerf" already? This is getting worse than Starcraft patch day reactions...

Again and again this argument goes in circles.

Jumpmasters aren't dominating top end competition so it's obviously not strictly a balance issue, but they ARE having a very negative effect on the viability of a lot of lists. It's like it's opened up a big gap between Tier I/II and Tier III/IV lists that previously wasn't so big that a bit of play skill or luck couldn't close it.

There's too much of the stuff that people just play because they like playing it which the Jumpmasters stomp all over in a way that isn't even fun to play the game and lose.

I don't think it matters very much if Jumpmasters are winning every tournament or not. They're clearly upsetting a whole segment of the player base who are just as heavily invested in the game as those at the sharp end of tournaments, and just as important for the long term health of the game. IMHO they need pulling down a notch just to open the lower Tier listbuilding back up a little bit.

Who burned pre-nerf Whisper? VI Chiraneau and VI Han.

The problem with scouts is not that they are dominating the meta but, like TLTs before that, that they counter a lot of stuff while still not putting a dent in PalpAces.

This allows PalpAces to be even more of a dominating force.

Maybe it's time for FFG to do some nerfs instead of releasing counters that counter everything but the dominating squad.

I used to fly firesprays but TLTs are like a countdown of doom for them and scouts now made bounty hunters completely unusable.

Palpaces made up 26% of NY regionals and that's worse than the Whisper/FatHan dominance. Imperial Aces did not need the Emperor but it is a $100 card that's making FFG tons of money. Unfortunately FFG fixes lately have been to release another money maker.

I have not yet played against a scout toilet seat yet, but it does seem strange why it is just so cheap. I compare the ship to the YT-2400 and 1300. The YT-2400 is fairly expensive across the board, even when you go for the generic pilot. The 1300 ship is stat nerfed when you go for the generic pilot.

I would had expected that the contracted scout would had been stat-nerfed too.

Too late now I suppose.

It is. All three of them have 2-PWTs. Attack is the most important state and the one on which most points depend. The difference is that the Scout can pay 9 points for two fully modified 4 die attacks, whereas the ORS can't get a better attack... ever, and the WSF can only take 1 missile or pay 8 to 12 points for a unique cannon-turret.

Scouts in and of themselves aren't amazing. Scouts with Deadeye, R4, EM and Proton Torpedoes are.

And even then, they're only blowing up the meta because people aren't used to them yet. They'll settle down in time.

They still haven't 'fixed' TLTs I thought they were supposed to bring the end of days.

When was the last time you saw Thug Life on the table since the Scout came out? Seems fixed to me.

And even then, they're only blowing up the meta because people aren't used to them yet. They'll settle down in time.

Yeah... no.

They're priced for top tier competitive use, they'll be around for the foreseeable future.

And even then, they're only blowing up the meta because people aren't used to them yet. They'll settle down in time.

Yeah... no.

They're priced for top tier competitive use, they'll be around for the foreseeable future.

I'm not saying they won't keep being used. I'm saying they'll join the ranks of various competitive lists. By the time nationals, let alone worlds, come round, I'd expect to see a lot fewer of them in the top cuts, and a lot fewer triple JM builds generally. Especially because Imperial Veterans will be the new hotness by that time.

I could be wrong though. It will be interesting to find out.

I'm not saying they won't keep being used. I'm saying they'll join the ranks of various competitive lists. By the time nationals, let alone worlds, come round, I'd expect to see a lot fewer of them in the top cuts, and a lot fewer triple JM builds generally. Especially because Imperial Veterans will be the new hotness by that time.

I could be wrong though. It will be interesting to find out.

Mmm, if anything I'd say the arrival of Defenders will play nicely into the hands of the Jumpmasters - a juicy 30-40 point small ship is exactly what they love to play against. Jumpmasters should be able to do a pretty good job of preventing the Defenders & Bombers from making much impact.

And even then, they're only blowing up the meta because people aren't used to them yet. They'll settle down in time.

Yeah... no.

They're priced for top tier competitive use, they'll be around for the foreseeable future.

Thats not what he meant. Its just that they will be (and already are) figured out, at which point they become a regular part of a meta game. When they came out few people had a good idea how to combat them outside of the hard counter with (Palp) aces. We now start to see people utilize action denial and positioning, too, which opens a door for lists that are not dominant against U-Boats but have an advantage against Aces to also enter the meta.

Additionaly U-Boat lists themselves are extremely diverse with various combinations of crew and the two good torpedoes and different third ships. The pure all three torp boat list loses a lot of utility compared to those with Bumpmasters, Manaroo, G1A aces and others.

I have been playing X-with from Wave 3 forward, I have seen and dealt with tons of cheese, the answer never is ban something because you learn to play around it, and get better. It is understandable difficult right now but most tornys I see people are winning without scouts. I was toying around with 5 rookie T-65 pilots if an Ace Box came along and dropped they price of each to 20, that is far worse then 3 scouts. A crack shot swarm is also far worse.

We play and we learn to overcome what is out there. Hang in there and keep at it.

On the contrary, defenders should do fine against JMs. /x7 defenders should be able to tank a torp fairly easily (3 agility, focus, evade), and /Ds will just kill them. And even if not, usually it'll take 3 or possibly 4 torps to down a single defender, depending on the cursed green dice, and the first one or two will be taking shields so that crits won't matter as much.

And even if not, I'm not saying necessarily that defenders are the counter to JMs - just that they'll be the new hotness and lots of people will be playing them.

The other argument that JMs are fine is unfortunately a little more difficult in a competitive context - that swarms, especially 3-agi swarms, are their bane - the average 3-agi ship takes 2 hits to knock down, so when your loo seats can fire themselves dry and only take out half the enemy, probably at the cost of one of their number, they're buggered - but swarms are comparatively rare in a competitive context because they take more time and more brain power to fly than most lists.

A six-ship crackswarm or an ace/miniswarm list (probably with Soontir or OL as the ace) is probably what I'd go for if I really wanted to play anti-u-boat game. But I'm happy with my trip aces.

I've not fought JMs a lot, but when I have, I've usually won, because I spent a reasonable amount of time woking out how to do it, and how to adapt my list for it - in particular, moving from Soontir and OL to Carnor and OL as the core of my build. OL can tank a single JM pretty much forever, because of his pilot ability, and Carnor just shuts them down.

I'm also wondering about the 'out-alpha them' list with Tel, Manaroo and N'Dru; you can get a nice higher-PS alpha into 100 points...

Also if we adjust the scouts are going to change every other "broken" card or ship in X-wing. Will pulp mobile go away, Will Soontir lose his ability, will Fett need to be adjusted by 4 points, maybe all ships should lose their EPT, maybe E-wings should not attack twice Ina turn.

You start pulling on threads you will hate what happens.

Eh, I think there could be an argument that Scouts are a touch undercosted or that Deadeye could be made discard-on-use, and remain balanced, but overall, as noted above, I'm fully expecting things to settle down in a month or two.

It seems quite a few people in this thread are missing the point why Scouts are a meta problem. Even back in the day Whisper wasnt winning the majority of the tournaments because the few hard counters (mostly Han before Chiraneau arrived) were literally everywhere. The meta problem comes from the fact that it narrows squad choices down alot in competetive plays. Yes they have more counters than Whisper, but there were also a lot fewer ships and upgrade options at the time. Relatively speaking they might not have that many more counters than the Phantom.

Personally i think scouts will be dealt with either way, but it's a bit disheartening to see the designers missed the mark on key cards for two waves in a row (although TLT is rendered almost irrelevant by the arrival of scouts so it's no longer that big of an issue).

YEAH. Look what they've done to the meta! They've given Scum an answer to Rebel Regen and PalpAces lists and made them semi-competitive! How dare they!

Seriously. Can we get over the "zomgz Scoutz OP, plz nerf" already? This is getting worse than Starcraft patch day reactions...

Scum have so many good options against palp aces. Primarily I'm a scum player and I'm thoroughly disappointed by the scout. What scum did not need was another almost fixed list (following brobots) to dominate the tournament scene. What the faction needed was more options to flex out its list building options. The designers did some great things in wave 8 for scum with upgrade cards and abilities but they've been eclipsed due to the scout being priced so aggressively.

They have some good options, but few great lists (and certainly even less that don't involve the word Brobot). The Jumpmaster is the utility ship Scum needed. Yes, you can run 3 of them with torpedoes, but realistically, that's not as efficient or useful as running them mixed; either with other ships (Zs, Hwks, G1A, etc), or with a BumpMaster build. The scout is cheap because it's a toolbox. If it's base cost was 30, you'd be 40 points into it by the time it was useful, and people would declare it DoA.

The designers did do some great things with the latest upgrade cards, and if you look carefully, you'll see a lot of the lists using Jumpmasters are using them. They haven't been eclipsed; they've been put to work.

Let's see what happens once Imperial Vets comes out. Won't the Gamma Squadron Vet w/ Deadeye be even worse? Or possibly just different?