Not upset about auto-fire + Jury Rigged combo, since as a GM I can throw down opposition that's far worse and turn the PC into a greasy smear if I so choose. But then I'm lucky that I don't have players that are power-gaming munchkins who'd try to abuse the system that way in the first place.

And given how you're trying to twist the system to exploit it for maximum mechanical benefit... that's classic munchkin power-gaming to a T.

But hey, if you want to go have your lonely fun trying to build the perfect weapon or perfect armor to the exclusion of all else, go right ahead. Any player that tried that at my table would be told to stay home and have fun rolling dice all by their lonesome while the rest of us enjoy a fun adventure where the PCs actually accomplish something of merit.

As Krieger22 said, Planet "Hypothetical Ultimate Best Case Scenario" isn't the planet we live on.

Ironically how you call me a munchkin power gamer and going on that to a perfect example of those gruesome railroading GMs who want to have their pcs actually accomplish something of merit. We seem to be from different planets indeed, I reside on a character driven systems while you seem to come from a d&d train which lines the PC up to follow the lead to accomplish the goals of the textbook adventure. SCNR. I bet that impression I have is just as wrong as yours, but we seem to be really from different planets.

Acquiring the tools, materials and the knowledge alone can be a whole adventure, and as I said, PC time is anyway limited, so speaking of whole session of just rolls sounds like a quite crude interpretation of crafting in RPGs in general. Degrading it to just throwing rolls sounds like degrading combat or social encounters to just rolls. Speaking of that, Chronicles of the Gatekeeper sounds like at its core it is a adventure about acquiring materials for a crafting roll. ;-)

But the point you so clearly missed in your hurry to be "right" is that while as I GM I "could" do those things, the simply matter is that I DON'T.

But you've long since proven here and in multiple other that you're not really worth trying to have a conversation with, as you can't begin to comprehend the notion that you might not be 100% in the right, so go ahead and do whatever floats your little boat.

*adds to Ignore list*

I feel like I should deeply apologise for not mentioning that I am not always right. And that water is usually wet. Well, on earth at least, outside of polar regions. What else? Hmmm, a yeah, I apologize as well for not mentioning that every group should handle and adjust their game like it suits them … I could go on and on with stuff that I really should have mentioned. I apologize. And to be honest, I am grateful for the plonk, because I much rather talk to people who do not get offended when someone does not mentions the obvious.

Speaking of stuff that should go without saying and seems not to go without saying:

A thing that I personally don't get why a lot of players seem to focus and FFGSWRPG as a narrative system when the system still use dice and their interpretation as the huge source to drive that narration and comes with all those tropes of DnD, including silly stuff like + One Advantage Screwdrivers of Success together with a million tables for crits, spending advantages for literally everything and anything, depending on what you do, where you do it, when you do with, with whom you do it. Tables for everything to tell you what your actions "can do", a thousand items with small extra dice for everything, from "Owners starship manual" which grants you an downgrade of difficulty on mechanics checks, to a personalized toolkit which grants you a bonus die, but everyone else a setback to travel guides which again grant you bonus dice … the complete mechanical side of the game is the straight opposite of a narrative driven RPG. Very equipment driven, very gamey, with a lot of DnD and CRPG vibes in the whole mechanical side of the game. The main narrative element in the system is not telling the story of your characters, but the story of their dice rolls and you roll for quite a lot really.

So another suggestion outside of those gamey mechanics: Just work with your GM and develop that template for a weapon with breach directly yourself, ignore happily the given templates and just develop your own template and integrate it into your game. Just as Uthanono said. This is really the easiest solution, just house rules, creativity and a dash of creating your own game. It's really not hard and even if your template turns out problematic at a later date this can always solved simply narratively and as well mechanically by discovering new draw backs or tuning down the weapon. The first one is a prototype after all and those are well known for developing their own quirks, bugs, problems and side-effects.

One thing to note when developing such a weapon: The main reasons why lightsabers have breach is the power that a kyber crystal gives that weapon. Finding such a crystal is an adventure on its own usually, but those crystals are indeed not exclusively used for lightsabers. The deathstar for example used a giant kyber crystal for its superlaser and just hitting that giant crystal with a blaster would amply the blaster energy by magnitudes. (Crystal Crisis on Utapau)

There are more conventional weapon like TFA era turbolasers which use as well those very rare crystals to enhance performance of the weapon, so something in blaster form might be possible. ( http://www.starwars.com/databank/finalizer )

Hmm, we've got one spare kyber crystal in a useless holocron …, but that is off-topic ;-)

Lets all calm down shall we? We are all civilzed gamers.

Seapocalypse, thanks for pointing that out about CotG.

See, here's how it went...

I was reading the crafting rules, and I suddenly thought, "I wonder if one could build, say, something like a 40k thunderhammer using these rules." Then, I started wondering what the stats of a thunderhammer might be like, and I thought, surely it must have Breach. So then I looked at the spending chart, and saw no Breach. That's when I wondered how much Breach might cost for a unique, super special, very powerful weapon that some player sometime might want to craft.

I came here and posted my question. Those who bothered to reply to my question with actual explanations as to why it shouldn't be readily allowed, I thank you. Sometimes I post things that I haven't fully thought through. But perhaps that's also the best moment to post because you'll end up with a bunch of different answers and cross-debates.

I think Uthanono has a valid suggestion of creating a template specifically for a super-powered melee weapon. The book even says to create templates as needed. It might look something like...

Name: superior-powered melee weapon

Material Price/Rarity: 1000/8

Check: Formidable (5 purple diamonds) Mechanics Check

Time: 1 week (168 hours)

Examples: Pius Dea Crusades Thunderhammer

The basic weapon profile might look like...

Name: thunderhammer

Skill: melee

Damage: +4

Crit: 3

Range: Engaged

Encumbrance: 5

HP: 2

Special: Stun 3, Breach, Cumbersome 2

Hands Required: One

I'm not a 40K player. But I think that you raise Cumbersome to 3, that way the averag joe can't pick it up. And raise the cost a bit, 1,000 for Breach seems really cheap, 4,000 seems good to me. Other wise a good mechanic might craft it Then give it to another player at +6 damage(1 for destructive and another for 2 handed) with that able to improved through further modifications to about +8 Damage. Meaning that four brawn wookie, yeah he's got a 12 damage weapon. With other qualites as well. Just my opinion.

edit: Just saw the difficulty, by the time a mechanic would be able to craft it well, it would be late campaign. But I would still raise the price.

Yeah, the prices in the template chart seem low to me to begin with. The highest one is the powered melee weapon only requiring 400 credits worth of Rarity 4 materials. So not really knowing how they came up with those numbers, I just stuck a 1,000 credit, Rarity 8 price tag on my possible template. I was considering Cumbersome 3, but I dunno... Food for thought.

See, here's how it went...

I was reading the crafting rules, and I suddenly thought, "I wonder if one could build, say, something like a 40k thunderhammer using these rules." Then, I started wondering what the stats of a thunderhammer might be like, and I thought, surely it must have Breach. So then I looked at the spending chart, and saw no Breach. That's when I wondered how much Breach might cost for a unique, super special, very powerful weapon that some player sometime might want to craft.

I came here and posted my question. Those who bothered to reply to my question with actual explanations as to why it shouldn't be readily allowed, I thank you. Sometimes I post things that I haven't fully thought through. But perhaps that's also the best moment to post because you'll end up with a bunch of different answers and cross-debates.

I think Uthanono has a valid suggestion of creating a template specifically for a super-powered melee weapon. The book even says to create templates as needed. It might look something like...

Name: superior-powered melee weapon

Material Price/Rarity: 1000/8

Check: Formidable (5 purple diamonds) Mechanics Check

Time: 1 week (168 hours)

Examples: Pius Dea Crusades Thunderhammer

The basic weapon profile might look like...

Name: thunderhammer

Skill: melee

Damage: +4

Crit: 3

Range: Engaged

Encumbrance: 5

HP: 2

Special: Stun 3, Breach, Cumbersome 2

Hands Required: One

Breach is pretty powerful as it is. But a one-handed weapon that does +4 Damage seems a bit... extreme. I'd definitely make it a two-handed weapon, or drop the damage down to the vibrosword's +2.

See, here's how it went...

I was reading the crafting rules, and I suddenly thought, "I wonder if one could build, say, something like a 40k thunderhammer using these rules." Then, I started wondering what the stats of a thunderhammer might be like, and I thought, surely it must have Breach. So then I looked at the spending chart, and saw no Breach. That's when I wondered how much Breach might cost for a unique, super special, very powerful weapon that some player sometime might want to craft.

I came here and posted my question. Those who bothered to reply to my question with actual explanations as to why it shouldn't be readily allowed, I thank you. Sometimes I post things that I haven't fully thought through. But perhaps that's also the best moment to post because you'll end up with a bunch of different answers and cross-debates.

I think Uthanono has a valid suggestion of creating a template specifically for a super-powered melee weapon. The book even says to create templates as needed. It might look something like...

Name: superior-powered melee weapon

Material Price/Rarity: 1000/8

Check: Formidable (5 purple diamonds) Mechanics Check

Time: 1 week (168 hours)

Examples: Pius Dea Crusades Thunderhammer

The basic weapon profile might look like...

Name: thunderhammer

Skill: melee

Damage: +4

Crit: 3

Range: Engaged

Encumbrance: 5

HP: 2

Special: Stun 3, Breach, Cumbersome 2

Hands Required: One

Breach is pretty powerful as it is. But a one-handed weapon that does +4 Damage seems a bit... extreme. I'd definitely make it a two-handed weapon, or drop the damage down to the vibrosword's +2.

On one hand I agree with that, but at least it has not 5 hardpoints, sunder and a crit-rating of 2. Though personally I would like to see it with cumbersome 4. Just because it so much cooler when most need power-armor to actually USE it.

If you want to stick to the 40K concept, you should no forget that this kind of weapons are not mass produced, they are more "revered relics" than war tools.

Name: thunderhammer

Skill: melee

Damage: +4

Crit: 3

Range: Engaged

Encumbrance: 5

HP: 2

Special: Stun 3, Breach, Cumbersome 2

Hands Required: One

This template is more the final product than a base template. And a relic is something of exception. So, go for a 'softer' template, and a realy good/exceptionnal creation could result in the stats above.

Maybe try something like this :

Name: Energy Melee weapon

Skill: melee

Damage: +2 (it's a powered weapon)

Crit: 4 (blunt weapon = 5 , but powered weapon = 3 ... 4 is median)

Range: Engaged

Encumbrance: 8 (realy high, cause that kind of power make it bulky and massive, only exceptionnal crafting/engineering can make it viable)

HP: 5 (big and heavy gives you room to work)

Special: Cumbersome 5 due to the external powerpack used to power it (you could houserule a power armor that does supply the power, reducing the cumbersome quality by 1 or 2), breach 1

Hands Required: two hands (using a 20kg melee weapon with one hand is more a wielder feat than a weapon feature, so find a way to allow the wielder to do so with one hand (strengh 5+, cyber implant, powered armor)

With something like 12+ advantages you could end up with something close to the stats you presented, with 2 triumphs on top, you add concussive and got an empirium relic. It'd then be an exceptionnal weapon, not something you can mass produce.

Regarding cost and rarity... the main issue would be to first get your hand on a template/blue print/scientific data giving you leads to create something similar. But granted you managed to get the insight, your template cost seems quite good (except rarity 8 which may be a bit high)

See, here's how it went...

I was reading the crafting rules, and I suddenly thought, "I wonder if one could build, say, something like a 40k thunderhammer using these rules." Then, I started wondering what the stats of a thunderhammer might be like, and I thought, surely it must have Breach. So then I looked at the spending chart, and saw no Breach. That's when I wondered how much Breach might cost for a unique, super special, very powerful weapon that some player sometime might want to craft.

I came here and posted my question. Those who bothered to reply to my question with actual explanations as to why it shouldn't be readily allowed, I thank you. Sometimes I post things that I haven't fully thought through. But perhaps that's also the best moment to post because you'll end up with a bunch of different answers and cross-debates.

I think Uthanono has a valid suggestion of creating a template specifically for a super-powered melee weapon. The book even says to create templates as needed. It might look something like...

Name: superior-powered melee weapon

Material Price/Rarity: 1000/8

Check: Formidable (5 purple diamonds) Mechanics Check

Time: 1 week (168 hours)

Examples: Pius Dea Crusades Thunderhammer

The basic weapon profile might look like...

Name: thunderhammer

Skill: melee

Damage: +4

Crit: 3

Range: Engaged

Encumbrance: 5

HP: 2

Special: Stun 3, Breach, Cumbersome 2

Hands Required: One

Breach is pretty powerful as it is. But a one-handed weapon that does +4 Damage seems a bit... extreme. I'd definitely make it a two-handed weapon, or drop the damage down to the vibrosword's +2.

On one hand I agree with that, but at least it has not 5 hardpoints, sunder and a crit-rating of 2. Though personally I would like to see it with cumbersome 4. Just because it so much cooler when most need power-armor to actually USE it.

That and most vibroswords already do +4 effectively, a vibrosword has a penetration of 2 thus in principle against almost anything they are the same weapon. I am generally of the school that most blunt weapons need to have considerably higher damage to make up for the fact they cant' use monoedge at all. A vibro rapier is even a +7 weapon vs creatures with really high soak.

That and most vibroswords already do +4 effectively, a vibrosword has a penetration of 2 thus in principle against almost anything they are the same weapon. I am generally of the school that most blunt weapons need to have considerably higher damage to make up for the fact they cant' use monoedge at all. A vibro rapier is even a +7 weapon vs creatures with really high soak.

Right... but he's talking about a TEMPLATE upon which to add more bonuses using the crafting system, not a complete weapon.

It just occurred to me — no hammer should have Breach as a quality. A hammer used against living/sentient targets is used to cause blunt force trauma, and Breach would not apply to that description.

EDIT: Furthermore, the reason a hammer works against someone in armor is because it crushes the armor and causes the armor to impinge on the person/sentient being underneath.

So, hammers weren’t a particularly effective weapon against chain mail, because most people wore padded armor underneath the chain mail in order to make it more comfortable. Since chain mail is flexible and padded armor is padded, a hammer isn’t that great of a weapon against it.

Hammers are more effective against plate armor, because if they can crush the plate then that plate is what causes the damage to the person wearing it. That’s why later versions of plate armor added ridges and crenellations, as a way to add structural integrity without adding weight, in much the same way that cardboard works.

Well... in fact, maces and warhammer were designed to pierce through plate armor and ignore chain mail so... These are maybe the more likely to get Breach Quality.

And anyway in this case the weapon beeing a hammer is more fluff than anything else. It's an energy weapon, a cloud of whatever you want turned Plasma and shaped into a hammer (cause hammer is badass).

If the intent is to design a custom weapon, i would dispense with the crafting rules entirely, and just have it be a one-time project for the PC to build this specific weapon.

Set the difficulty at Daunting, require X number of days, and if successful the PC has built the weapon according to a stat block that the player and the GM can agree upon. The flip side is that any advantage/threat/triumph/despair results would NOT be able to be spent per the crafting rules, since said rules were designed and playtested for a fairly specific set of templates.

Simon Retold hit the nail on the head in that by creating what is an over-powered template to begin with and then adding the perks of the crafting rules is frankly opening the door to even more problems. Even with Force and Destiny having considerably toned down the power of a lightsaber, there are still GMs that have issues with these weapons appearing in their games due in large part to the Breach 1 quality, and they don't get to enjoy the extra perks that a weapon created under the crafting rules has the chance to get, to say nothing of additional weapon attachments that can potentially ratchet up the weapon's power even more.

Well... in fact, maces and warhammer were designed to pierce through plate armor and ignore chain mail so... These are maybe the more likely to get Breach Quality.

And anyway in this case the weapon beeing a hammer is more fluff than anything else. It's an energy weapon, a cloud of whatever you want turned Plasma and shaped into a hammer (cause hammer is badass).

Maces and warhammers got through armor not so much by piercing it but simply by hitting it with excessive blunt force trauma that the force of the blow carried through to the person wearing the armor. So such weapons wouldn't really have Breach, but instead a high base damage value.

Well... in fact, maces and warhammer were designed to pierce through plate armor and ignore chain mail so... These are maybe the more likely to get Breach Quality.

In terms of causing physical damage to a target, what you want is a lot of force (which usually requires a lot of mass) that is concentrated in a small area of effect. Axes are a great example of this, because the axe head is relatively massive compared to the haft, and they put that mass out on the end of the lever. They then concentrate that kinetic energy into a relatively small surface area along the blade of the axe.

Axes work well against most any kind of armor that they can get a purchase on, which is part of why plate armor is built the way it is — the blade has a hard time getting a purchase on the metal plate, and just glances off. You would see a comparable effect with vibro-axes versus metallic or ceramic armor.

But plate armor is heavy and relatively thin, so a hammer is a better weapon to use against it. A pick can even puncture plate armor, but to maximize the chances of the pick doing that you want to put a head with three or four prongs on it, and have the prongs be asymmetrically shaped so as to “turn” the head of the pick into the armor, if one of the prongs should happen to get a purchase on the armor.

All of this is made much more effective if there is basically no medical care available on the battlefield, and infections and poor sanitary conditions are rampant. In that case, a simple scratch could potentially kill you, and could easily slow you down enough that you are a hindrance to the others around you who are on your side of the battle.

But with regards to the weapons of battle, a hammer has a relatively small part to play.

If you want to go play with energy weapons, then feel free to do that while I pull out my missile tube. I’m willing to bet that I will splatter you and the vehicle you rode in all over the countryside.

Well... in fact, maces and warhammer were designed to pierce through plate armor and ignore chain mail so... These are maybe the more likely to get Breach Quality.

And anyway in this case the weapon beeing a hammer is more fluff than anything else. It's an energy weapon, a cloud of whatever you want turned Plasma and shaped into a hammer (cause hammer is badass).

Maces and warhammers got through armor not so much by piercing it but simply by hitting it with excessive blunt force trauma that the force of the blow carried through to the person wearing the armor. So such weapons wouldn't really have Breach, but instead a high base damage value.

Well, according to real life, you are wrong on this point. Blows carried through to a person is Manga fantasy. Warhammers, flanged maces and such were used to crack and pierce plate armor and embed it into the flesh. They were not dealing massives damages, but were used to do it whatever the protection the opponent was wearing => Breach.

If you want to go play with energy weapons, then feel free to do that while I pull out my missile tube. I’m willing to bet that I will splatter you and the vehicle you rode in all over the countryside.

I do agree a melee weapon more cumbersome than a ranged heavy weapon is meaningless, it's all about looking badass

I think the template, which I did say *might* look a certain way, is a tad overmuch. I would reduce Damage to +3 (instead of +4) and raise Cumbersome to 3 (instead of 2). Thanks for helping me tweak that!

Crafting doesn't create the average, manufactured weapons, armor, gear, and such found at the local market. It creates unique stuff, even if the item ends up with the same exact stat line as something that can be bought. I like the crafting rules, and I don't think I'd skip them to simply create something the players and I could agree on. Don't forget, rolls can also create Threats instead of Advantages, and Despairs as well as Triumphs. A player's first attempt at creating a weapon could result in a waste of several days and sums of money if they don't like what they ended up with.

My whole conjecture that started this thread was about 40k thunderhammers. They may be shaped like mallets, but their explosive plasma impact is for opening up armor, especially on vehicles or power-armored characters. They *are* rare. They *are* OP.

Ported to the Star Wars setting, as a GM, I'd say Pius Dea Templar heroes might have had them 11,000 years ago. Maybe their power is based in kyber crystals, but they produce smashy microsplosions instead of slicey, melty energy blades. Obviously, with that in mind, the material cost listed in the template does not include the crystal.

I'm just brainplaying ideas for stories and such. And I do appreciate the feedback here. It helps fine tune the ideas.