There is something to be said for trying new things out. IMO Atanni Mindlink Brobots are better that crackstim bots and I had to have a multi-page debate about it.

K-Wings were branded as not efficient (even though they have no doughnut) and Aaron Bonar brought us Danger Zone.

So yeah, obviously don't discard anything that's not the top handful of netlists.

Agree, that's what I took to my last tournament. So good.

The guy who won the Roanoake regional is a perfect example of the difference between a mindless netlister and a list building genius. Yes, Palp shuttle is popular, yes Wampa is common in the meta but adding Scourge, Howlrunner and an Alphaceptor was genius and he proved out with it. It's not rocket science and it's not bricklaying either. How many people were playing Heavers worlds list prior to worlds last year? The problem with flying a netlist is that you have to fly it better than all the other sheeple in order to win with it.

Because your way is obviously superior and everyone who doesn't share it deserves to be insulted, right?

I think it's funny how the it's supposedly a "problem" if you're running good lists. You talk about don't succumb to the pressure of flying certain lists when it really sound slide you're pressuring people to not fly them. I've never cared what the person across from me was flying. I'd smile, ask what his upgrades and point costs were. But I've had plenty of time when people would act all passive aggressive because I was flying Fel, whisper, or han. I've been at big tournaments where seemed disgusted by the list and then would go on to tell me about how overpowered it was after the match.

Question? How come we don't see the top level players doing the same thing? I've never seen them care about what the other person was flying. They never pretended to be on some moral high ground because they brought they're own "special" list.

There is something to be said for trying new things out. IMO Atanni Mindlink Brobots are better that crackstim bots and I had to have a multi-page debate about it.

K-Wings were branded as not efficient (even though they have no doughnut) and Aaron Bonar brought us Danger Zone.

So yeah, obviously don't discard anything that's not the top handful of netlists.

Agree, that's what I took to my last tournament. So good.

The guy who won the Roanoake regional is a perfect example of the difference between a mindless netlister and a list building genius. Yes, Palp shuttle is popular, yes Wampa is common in the meta but adding Scourge, Howlrunner and an Alphaceptor was genius and he proved out with it. It's not rocket science and it's not bricklaying either. How many people were playing Heavers worlds list prior to worlds last year? The problem with flying a netlist is that you have to fly it better than all the other sheeple in order to win with it.

Because your way is obviously superior and everyone who doesn't share it deserves to be insulted, right?

I don't care about "my way". A good tournament doesn't necessarily make a good list. That was just one example of how I personally derived fun and enjoyment out of doing things my own way. The whole point is: don't do it my way or anyone else's. Do it your way, not someone else's.

I think it's funny how the it's supposedly a "problem" if you're running good lists. You talk about don't succumb to the pressure of flying certain lists when it really sound slide you're pressuring people to not fly them. I've never cared what the person across from me was flying. I'd smile, ask what his upgrades and point costs were. But I've had plenty of time when people would act all passive aggressive because I was flying Fel, whisper, or han. I've been at big tournaments where seemed disgusted by the list and then would go on to tell me about how overpowered it was after the match.

Question? How come we don't see the top level players doing the same thing? I've never seen them care about what the other person was flying. They never pretended to be on some moral high ground because they brought they're own "special" list.

I know some top players. They think you're lame too. They just don't think you're worth the time to tell you you're lame. Maybe they figure you already know. In this conversation you remind me of the guy who buys a brand new muscle car and thinks he a great racer.

I think it's funny how the it's supposedly a "problem" if you're running good lists. You talk about don't succumb to the pressure of flying certain lists when it really sound slide you're pressuring people to not fly them. I've never cared what the person across from me was flying. I'd smile, ask what his upgrades and point costs were. But I've had plenty of time when people would act all passive aggressive because I was flying Fel, whisper, or han. I've been at big tournaments where seemed disgusted by the list and then would go on to tell me about how overpowered it was after the match.

Question? How come we don't see the top level players doing the same thing? I've never seen them care about what the other person was flying. They never pretended to be on some moral high ground because they brought they're own "special" list.

I know some top players. They think you're lame too. They just don't think you're worth the time to tell you you're lame. Maybe they figure you already know. In this conversation you remind me of the guy who buys a brand new muscle car and thinks he a great racer.

In the aftermath of Worlds 2014, there was a post by KineticOperator about "Playing to Win". People were upset about Richard Hsu building a fortress in the corner and waiting until the last minutes of the game to break out of the fortress and go after his opponent. In that post, KO links and refers to an article/book/dissertation that expresses the same sentiment as the post from RedAce (even down to the use of the word scrub).

The gist was that if you are playing a competitive game and you have some sort of limiting unwritten rules that you adhere to, that's your own business. Expecting your opponents to abide by the same limitations is irrational. Complaining about people that violate your code is silly. As a competitive player whose goal it is to win, you should be open to using whatever tools and tactics you have available (and that are legal). Not doing so, and then blaming your failure (or the success of others) on the limitations that you set for your self is just an excuse.

The author of the article comes of as a little cocky, but I think it is a valuable read.

Well I wandered back into the thread and it's way off track now IMO.

If you enjoy playing the meta. Fair play to you. If your happy to let someon create a list then keep flying it till your good with it, fair play.

If you wish for a more diverse meta, help create it by flying something else and getting good with that though.

There is nothing wrong with either approach or any spot inbetween. But to complain about something you partake in is silly and pointless.

Pretty sure that was the point of the thread. Results show you don't have to fly a recognised top tier list to win.

You just have to get good with a good squad. Of which there are more than U-boat and Palp ace.

Playing something other than them doesn't make me a scrub any more than someone flying them makes them a winner.

Playing something other than them doesn't make me a scrub any more than someone flying them makes them a winner.

It's the playing a special snowflake list and complaining about losing to people flying "net-lists" that makes someone a scrub.

Sirlin most certainly does not "express mostly the same sentiment" as RedAce. Go back to the OP. Note the exhortation at the end: learn the game well enough to be able to build your own lists​. That is the precise opposite of the scrub mentality Sirlin describes.If anything, RedAce is encouraging the scrub mentality: the best possible lists are widely known and widely used and you can't do better than that.

Well, was the list that won Gencon a generally accepted power pick? Was the list that won worlds a known quantity? No and no. If you want to git gud, the OP's stance is a better choice than RedAce's stance.

I must admit I do like sirlin's philosophy

I don't really mind playing power lists, as long as those power lists aren't based around fat turrets.

I know it's imposing an unnecessary limit on my squad building but I just wouldn't have been able to enjoy wave 5 for very long if every game I played was a fat turret dice off. The point of this game is to enjoy it.

I'll also agree with what another has said earlier. Some players like ditto matches because it's just down to player skill. I'd consider myself one of those. Despite being a merely below-average Super Smash Brothers player I also preferred to only play on Final Destination with no items.

I like the squad building aspect of this game but I wish it was less important. Often times games are won or lost in the list building phase. You make a list that deals with the Bowdlex Revolution and Palp Aces, and then you have a struggle against Super Dash. It's way less of a problem than it was during wave 5 but it's still there.

I don't really mind playing power lists, as long as those power lists aren't based around fat turrets.

I know it's imposing an unnecessary limit on my squad building but I just wouldn't have been able to enjoy wave 5 for very long if every game I played was a fat turret dice off. The point of this game is to enjoy it.

I'll also agree with what another has said earlier. Some players like ditto matches because it's just down to player skill. I'd consider myself one of those. Despite being a merely below-average Super Smash Brothers player I also preferred to only play on Final Destination with no items.

I like the squad building aspect of this game but I wish it was less important. Often times games are won or lost in the list building phase. You make a list that deals with the Bowdlex Revolution and Palp Aces, and then you have a struggle against Super Dash. It's way less of a problem than it was during wave 5 but it's still there.

Final destination, no items?!?! You monster!!

I think it's funny how the it's supposedly a "problem" if you're running good lists. You talk about don't succumb to the pressure of flying certain lists when it really sound slide you're pressuring people to not fly them. I've never cared what the person across from me was flying. I'd smile, ask what his upgrades and point costs were. But I've had plenty of time when people would act all passive aggressive because I was flying Fel, whisper, or han. I've been at big tournaments where seemed disgusted by the list and then would go on to tell me about how overpowered it was after the match.

Question? How come we don't see the top level players doing the same thing? I've never seen them care about what the other person was flying. They never pretended to be on some moral high ground because they brought they're own "special" list.

Isn't that the point? I am vocalizing my feelings on the subject.

I personally would prefer more players play lists they have created over lists they have found online, especially if they are on the fence about which direction to go. I personally think you get more out of the game when you play this way. That's my opinion, and if my opinion helps put more new, creative lists on the table, I am happy to share it. I like having as many different lists in tournaments as possible. I would prefer that players don't turn to meta lists so quickly, and instead would experiment, test, and list build on their own and learn more about the game through this. That is what I have found to be most enjoyable for myself, and what I enjoy seeing other players do as well. That's me.

Having said that, I am not going to go to a tournament and see someone flying a meta list and turn up my nose and say "Wow. You are an awful person for taking a netlist. You are what's wrong with this game." Do I think their list is boring? As the topic title indicates, yes I do. But they have just as much a right to play what they want as I do, and if they enjoy playing it that way, more power to them. There is a lot of motivation to play this way. The lists have a proven track record. You don't have to worry much about countering anything during listbuilding, because you're the top of the food chain. You don't have to get in a lot of practice (relatively) with the list because it largely carries itself with some of the games most powerful cards and combos. A good number of players enjoy that about these lists, and jump on the train when the best lists after a wave release start taking form. That's them.

I feel like I am saying the same thing over and over about my stance, and it still isn't clear to a select few. This isn't a hate speech directed at those who truly, fullheartedly enjoy the game the best by taking the proven top tier lists and winning with them. But, part of promoting the idea of creating a list, testing it, refining it, and flying it in a tournament, is attempting to sway players who are on the fence about doing this or net listing, away from net listing. Pointing out the negative effect net listing has on the game (mainly, it makes it less interesting to play and watch for many players), helps drive home my stance because many players have seen this for themselves and don't particularly enjoy it. Perhaps this was a bad call on my part, and I shouldn't have brought net lists in to the discussion and purely made it about the benefits of flying something you have created yourself. When I posted the OP, it was late and I was tired. Either way, I feel like my message has largely been received as intended.

Sirlin most certainly does not "express mostly the same sentiment" as RedAce. Go back to the OP. Note the exhortation at the end: learn the game well enough to be able to build your own lists​. That is the precise opposite of the scrub mentality Sirlin describes.If anything, RedAce is encouraging the scrub mentality: the best possible lists are widely known and widely used and you can't do better than that.

Well, was the list that won Gencon a generally accepted power pick? Was the list that won worlds a known quantity? No and no. If you want to git gud, the OP's stance is a better choice than RedAce's stance.

I've got no disagreement with the OP. If you want a more diverse meta, experiment and figure out what works. I've got no issue with that. Just don't think that losing with that list makes you somehow superior to someone that wins with a list that's popular in the meta.

Scrubby:

Avoiding a list that you can play well because it is popular in the meta and you don't want to be a sheep.

Bringing an oddball list because you consider it beneath you to run popular meta lists.

Running a popular meta list and expecting to do well with it because it has won a lot of tournaments.

Not Scrubby:

Avoiding a list that you can play well because it is popular in the meta and you expect too many people to run counters.

Bringing an oddball list because you expect it to get more good match-ups than bad against what's popular in the meta.

Running a popular meta list because you've practiced with it and understand why it's good and what it's weaknesses are.

BTW - What was the list that won GenCon?

I don't really mind playing power lists, as long as those power lists aren't based around fat turrets.

I know it's imposing an unnecessary limit on my squad building but I just wouldn't have been able to enjoy wave 5 for very long if every game I played was a fat turret dice off. The point of this game is to enjoy it.

I'll also agree with what another has said earlier. Some players like ditto matches because it's just down to player skill. I'd consider myself one of those. Despite being a merely below-average Super Smash Brothers player I also preferred to only play on Final Destination with no items.

I like the squad building aspect of this game but I wish it was less important. Often times games are won or lost in the list building phase. You make a list that deals with the Bowdlex Revolution and Palp Aces, and then you have a struggle against Super Dash. It's way less of a problem than it was during wave 5 but it's still there.

Final destination, no items?!?! You monster!!

Ya, why would you do that? Smash is a party game, it's not meant to be played competitively. The creator even said so.

I think it's funny how the it's supposedly a "problem" if you're running good lists. You talk about don't succumb to the pressure of flying certain lists when it really sound slide you're pressuring people to not fly them. I've never cared what the person across from me was flying. I'd smile, ask what his upgrades and point costs were. But I've had plenty of time when people would act all passive aggressive because I was flying Fel, whisper, or han. I've been at big tournaments where seemed disgusted by the list and then would go on to tell me about how overpowered it was after the match.

Question? How come we don't see the top level players doing the same thing? I've never seen them care about what the other person was flying. They never pretended to be on some moral high ground because they brought they're own "special" list.

Actually, I agree with what you are saying, but it's taken me a bit of time to get there. I started playing in Wave 1 and I'm not near any of the major gaming hubs. When I went to a tournament, there was a good amount of variety. It took a good while to really kind of kill that mentality. Also, the competition started to get pretty fierce. The whole point of the tournaments changed to a real cut throat idea of having really efficient lists. It rubbed me the wrong way as that's not what I was used to. I argued on these forums and talked about how people should fly lists with more variety. In the end, I just realized that I was bored with tournament play, even if I did really well. I just learned to accept that tournament play has changed and I just don't like it. I'm fine with it being what it is, but it's just not what I want anymore. That's one reason why I was fine with Intentional Draws. It made it plain as day that these events are hyper competitive these days.

Now, I will say that what you describe is not what the Original Poster suggested. He's making a plea to those players that like to play unique and interesting lists to continue to try them out. Don't give in and play a "net list". He's not saying netlisting is bad. He's saying that if you figure out a unique and interesting list and practice the heck out of it, you can still do well at tournaments. OP is just making a call to the type of player that might be feeling discouraged and gives in to just copying a netlist.

ITT: Scrubs, scrubs everywhere.

Keep putting these self imposed limitations on yourself and cry about things being broken and wonder why you keep losing.

Play some Epic, we'll see who's a scrub then.

I was just about to post a rant about the meta in my local store. Yes, regionals or any tournament is a competitive place and you can bring you Uboats or aceholes in there, but I just went to my store for casual games day and out of 32 people there 14 were playing Uboats and 10 were playing aces. Yes, I counted. On casual f**** night! Me and another friend, fans of Boba and Dengar were like "why are we even here?"

Then your store's casual night isn't encouraging casual but rather non-tournament play. I actively encourage casual play at the weekend event and people only bring this stuff if they're prepping for an official tournament.

I was just about to post a rant about the meta in my local store. Yes, regionals or any tournament is a competitive place and you can bring you Uboats or aceholes in there, but I just went to my store for casual games day and out of 32 people there 14 were playing Uboats and 10 were playing aces. Yes, I counted. On casual f**** night! Me and another friend, fans of Boba and Dengar were like "why are we even here?"

Then your store's casual night isn't encouraging casual but rather non-tournament play. I actively encourage casual play at the weekend event and people only bring this stuff if they're prepping for an official tournament.

I wouldn't be expecting to find much in the way of casual games this time of the year at a game store, most of them probably are prepping for a tournament.

ITT: Scrubs, scrubs everywhere.Keep putting these self imposed limitations on yourself and cry about things being broken and wonder why you keep losing.

Play some Epic, we'll see who's a scrub then.

???

Or even better, stop playing the boring tournament format games over and over! Try some different points levels, try some scenarios, use some Epic ships, play Heroes of the Aturi cluster, mix it up a little!

I agree. . .there is far more to X-Wing than 100-point asteroid field death matches.

Or even better, stop playing the boring tournament format games over and over! Try some different points levels, try some scenarios, use some Epic ships, play Heroes of the Aturi cluster, mix it up a little!

This is just hurting what the OP is trying to suggest. By calling one format boring, you already are showing a bias, which is no better then people complaining but being part of the problem. He's asking for people to change it up if they see a rut, or stop complaining. You have done the changing up, but much like earlier, ever persons opinion on fun will differ, and currently the vast majority enjoy the "boring" tournament standard.

Not entirely. . .although the solution is different. Sick of meta? As opposed to different lists, play different styles. Arc dodgers wither and die when faced with 300 points of guns running at them. Palp modifies one roll in 10+ per turn, rather than 1 roll in 2-3 per turn. List building becomes completely different. I wonder what would happen is asteroids become random. . .sometimes there are 12, sometimes there are none. It would at least add another element of uncertainty when approaching the table.

Yep. We play 2v2 (200 points/side) or 3v2 (240 points/side) each week. It's a way different field. Palpatine is just okay when the points (and number of dice rolls) increase to 200+.

Tournament style would be a change of pace for me. I haven't played a 100 point 1v1 game in probably 6 months, and before that it was Nationals at GenCon last year.

ITT: Scrubs, scrubs everywhere.Keep putting these self imposed limitations on yourself and cry about things being broken and wonder why you keep losing.

Play some Epic, we'll see who's a scrub then.

???

You reckon you're the ducks nuts, why not try playing some alternative formats and see how you stack up?

Playing something other than them doesn't make me a scrub any more than someone flying them makes them a winner.

It's the playing a special snowflake list and complaining about losing to people flying "net-lists" that makes someone a scrub.

Who's complaining about losing?

Wait. So now we have levels of players? Scrubs? Wow. Someone is high and mighty on their opinion of how much their X-Wing ability matters in life.

Playing something other than them doesn't make me a scrub any more than someone flying them makes them a winner.

It's the playing a special snowflake list and complaining about losing to people flying "net-lists" that makes someone a scrub.

Who's complaining about losing?

Stand around and listen to people at the next tournament you are at. You'll hear some.

This thread is a dumpster fire. Stop feeding the troll.