I've only heard terrible things about Epic.

I half justified my Raider purchase by saying I'd at least be able to organise I game of Epic to use it in (as well the ATC/Palpatine) but everybody around me refuses to play Epic after having tried it before.

I've only heard terrible things about Epic.

I half justified my Raider purchase by saying I'd at least be able to organise I game of Epic to use it in (as well the ATC/Palpatine) but everybody around me refuses to play Epic after having tried it before.

Those people are negative nancies and you don't need them in your life.

But seriously though, it can take a bit of coaching to get people to adapt to a different style of playing. They 'figure out' the 100 point furball and know how to win, they don't feel as confident or the things they tried in Epic/Cinematic didn't work as well, so they prefer to stick with what they know because they feel it's more balanced. But just because they haven't figured out the balance of bigger points games doesn't mean it isn't there.

Try arranging a whole-afternoon game of Epic with teams. Advertise it on facebook for a week or so and then turn up with enough points to play at least one side (say 500 points) and just see who turns up. If more people turn up you can bring the points back to 250 per player or less, and if only one other person turns up, you can just play at 500 points each.

Or you can take baby steps and start by suggesting an escalation league, where players build up from say, 50 point squads and finish at say, 175. Just to get them used to playing at different points levels.

I've only heard terrible things about Epic.

I half justified my Raider purchase by saying I'd at least be able to organise I game of Epic to use it in (as well the ATC/Palpatine) but everybody around me refuses to play Epic after having tried it before.

Those people are negative nancies and you don't need them in your life.

Pot, Kettle.

I've only heard terrible things about Epic.

I half justified my Raider purchase by saying I'd at least be able to organise I game of Epic to use it in (as well the ATC/Palpatine) but everybody around me refuses to play Epic after having tried it before.

Those people are negative nancies and you don't need them in your life.

Pot, Kettle.

*tap tap tap*

Hmm, I think your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning.

Looking at the latest regionals in my area, In Selden, NY that i really wanted to attend but just couldn't get out of work... three lists of the top four were identical. The other was brobots... respect to that guy (matt kissh) at least.

I won't stop attending tournaments when I can, but that is ridiculous to me, and it's not good for the game at all. As a new player if i saw that, I would bolt the other way. It's only because i've seen the cool possibilities in x-wing, and because of casual and epic play, that i stay around.

I'll say it again however, the new archetypes are slightly less stupid than Rainbow Dash/ Corran was. He just ignored the rules of the game, basically. In comparison, Palp lists let you play the game more the way it's meant to be played, except the other player has one hand tied behind their back. I mean you are still arc-dodging all over the place but at least you have to point your ship at the other guy.

I'm in the 3 out of 4 mirror match area where 26% of squads were Palpaces. I couldn't go to regionals because of other commitments thereby making the problem worse I guess.

I am exactly one of these people that you are talking about and I am about to take a break from organized play.

This isn't because I can't compete in this meta with other stuff because I can. Went top4 in store champ with Howlie, 3 obsidians and a patrol leader w/Vader. (lost in top4 cut to another original squad) Won another store champ with Imperial crackswarm and I've beat our Regional champion in the last two matches we played. Almost beat Palpaces at store champs with 5 naked scyks and a starviper (2 interceptors left at 1 hp at time after rolling 3 evades on two blocks)

What I don't like is facing so many Palpaces at the top and the excruciating task of list building squads that can beat Aces(have tons of these tested) but can also win against other stuff. It's just not fun.

Three of our store champs were won by original squads with Rebel Aces, bombs, and crackswarm but everybody still plays the meta squads at tournaments, casuals, and newly created league. I know some players would like to use other stuff but they just don't feel competitive using other stuff. The reality is that playing other lists is often a handicap and yes, the really good players can still win but for many meta lists are the way to go if they want to win.

I think it's on FFG to balance the game better and not add additional counters to stuff that's already hurting.

At one of the store champs my son played brobots and he faces Palpaces in the first two rounds for quick loses followed by a bye. Fortunately he won his last game vs Rebel swarm but that's still a pretty sh*tty tournament expirience.

I think my approach going forward will be to bring Palpaces hard counters. Kill them with fire and if someone is playing anything else, great! They need to be encouraged.

I think my approach going forward will be to bring Palpaces hard counters. Kill them with fire and if someone is playing anything else, great! They need to be encouraged.

Agreed.

I don't understand why players aren't taking more lists that have the strong ace counters that are available. I was just listening to Nova squadron about they were again discussing how efficient aces are (with Palp) but every faction has some very strong ace counters that can make that efficiency meaningless. The trick is to make sure you have a chance against Uboats in that build and I think there are plenty of builds in that category.

Right now, my own approach and current build give me a very strong advantage against even very good ace players and that I can outplay the Uboat players (though there are a couple I'm pretty sure would give me trouble, they've had more mixed results throughout swiss).

The players I am speaking to are those who find listbuilding enjoyable and exhilarating, and still enjoy winning. To these players, I am suggesting that you don't just fall in line with the meta and miss out on the enjoyment of listbuilding by taking a net list because you have been lead to believe it's the only way to win. I strongly believe you can win with a list you created.

Also, to those who believe it's already too late and they need to take a break from Organized Play, I say that only makes the issue worse. As less players who enjoy taking anti-meta lists join tournaments, it becomes less likely that anything outside of the meta wins these tournaments or places well. We need these type of players to continue to play the game the way they do to help break apart the monotony of the game in some regions. I feel there is enough evidence in regional results that prove that taking something other than uboats or Palp still offers you a healthy chance at placing well if your list a) is flown well and b) takes in to consideration these types of lists when you are list building.

You are talking to people like me here. I've long lamented the lack of variety at tournaments. It bored me to play against the same lists over and over again. I thought of unique and interesting lists and played them. I did well. Almost made top cut at last year's Regionals, but my dice went ice cold. I was thinking about odd lists that can win in this year's tournament season. I just....didn't care about tournaments this year. I just had no interest in even trying. Tournaments have just gotten boring for me. They aren't fun.

Since I've quit tournaments, I've been playing all sorts of different and interesting X-wing games. I'm having a blast! I'm so happy I dropped out of the tournament scene. I've found a group of players that are not really into meta games and we are having a great time.

I've come to the decision that tournaments are fine and a lot of people like them. You will never be able to stop the netlisting and the repetition of the same lists over and over and over and over again at events. I'm OK with that. Tournaments aren't what they used to be like early in the game. There are a large number of people that will want to win no matter what and will take the utter hardest and most proven lists around. You will never change their mind. Forget trying. Tournaments will be full of variations of about the same 5 or so lists every year. Oh, they change a bit every few months, but no matter what you do, there will always be just a few base lists that everyone is flying. That's just the way tournaments are from now on. If you don't like it, then you should just give up on it. It's the way it is.

I've only heard terrible things about Epic.

I've played a lot of Epic and had a real blast. I have seen people dabble into it and get frustrated and quit, but there are things you can do to make it not so horrible. For one, play the campaigns that come with the epic ships. They teach you how to fly the ship and the rules for Energy and such. They are also pretty fun. Play them a few times with different people so that everyone gets a chance to learn the Epic rules. There is a lot of confusion and such when people don't know the rules. When you do the smaller games, you get a chance to learn them a little bit at a time and the missions are actually pretty fun.

If you are going to play Epic, make sure you use the Epic Modifications from the Gozanti. Even if you just proxy them. They are fixes, basically.

When you do play Epic, try to stick to few special abilities and upgrades. You bog the game down when every pilot has some special ability and you forget half of them. Just fly some generics at first and see how it goes. You will be learning a lot of new stuff and just trying it without all the bells and whistles will be better.

I say it's really important to talk to your opponent and build balanced lists. With Epic, there are more points to dump into stupid lists that will just crush your opponent really fast. Look at all TLT Y-wing lists and no Epic ship. Make sure your opponent and you are building even lists. If you spend all this time to set up and play...and someone brings something nasty to just beat you down....where is the fun in that? Just at least start off with balanced lists in the first game.

I say try it out yourself and see how it goes. I know a lot of people that really enjoy epic.

I've only heard terrible things about Epic.

I half justified my Raider purchase by saying I'd at least be able to organise I game of Epic to use it in (as well the ATC/Palpatine) but everybody around me refuses to play Epic after having tried it before.

Sorry to hear that. I've had great fun with the game.

If you are going to play Epic, make sure you use the Epic Modifications from the Gozanti. Even if you just proxy them. They are fixes, basically.

Definitely agreed. We used a raider with the Impetuous title, weapons engineer and ordnance tubes. That thing's a beast!

"Don't worry! The primary weapons have a blind spot in close!"

[Three cluster missile volleys later]

"RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!"

When you do play Epic, try to stick to few special abilities and upgrades. You bog the game down when every pilot has some special ability and you forget half of them. Just fly some generics at first and see how it goes. You will be learning a lot of new stuff and just trying it without all the bells and whistles will be better.

Also agreed. Plus, there's something very satisfying when one of your choices is "A TIE Fighter Squadron".

When you do play Epic, try to stick to few special abilities and upgrades. You bog the game down when every pilot has some special ability and you forget half of them. Just fly some generics at first and see how it goes. You will be learning a lot of new stuff and just trying it without all the bells and whistles will be better.

Also agreed. Plus, there's something very satisfying when one of your choices is "A TIE Fighter Squadron".

I agree that it's a blast if you have squads of the same type of ship moving around the table. 3 X-wings flying together or 4 Tie Fighters in formation or 3 A-wings flying to protect 3 Y-wings while 3 Tie Interceptors try to blast them. So much fun!

You are talking to people like me here. I've long lamented the lack of variety at tournaments. It bored me to play against the same lists over and over again. I thought of unique and interesting lists and played them. I did well. Almost made top cut at last year's Regionals, but my dice went ice cold. I was thinking about odd lists that can win in this year's tournament season. I just....didn't care about tournaments this year. I just had no interest in even trying. Tournaments have just gotten boring for me. They aren't fun.

If you don't like it, then you should just give up on it. It's the way it is.

But this is where we are different. I love 100 point tournaments, and it is far and away my favorite way to play the game. So much so that if I have the option to play scenarios, epic, or any other format, I will almost certainly always choose to play 100 point (though I do enjoy variants of 100 point as well). I am happy for players who like to jump in on these more casual variants of X-wing, but it does make me sad that it makes the tournament scene skewed more towards netlisters and less from listbuilders.

And as a listbuilder myself, I don't think we should give up on it. There is a thrill to going to a large X-wing event that can not be found in any other format. And like I have said a couple times now, there have been multiple examples of players winning with unorthodox lists which have been competing against the typical Palp Aces and Uboats lists and winning. This game is deep enough that I refuse to believe Palp and Uboats are the only sure fire ways to win. I just believe they are so visible and have proven to be effective (largely because so many people are taking these lists), that players just think that is what they have to do to win. I just can't believe that to be the case.

But this is where we are different. I love 100 point tournaments, and it is far and away my favorite way to play the game.

And as a listbuilder myself, I don't think we should give up on it. There is a thrill to going to a large X-wing event that can not be found in any other format. And like I have said a couple times now, there have been multiple examples of players winning with unorthodox lists which have been competing against the typical Palp Aces and Uboats lists and winning. This game is deep enough that I refuse to believe Palp and Uboats are the only sure fire ways to win. I just believe they are so visible and have proven to be effective (largely because so many people are taking these lists), that players just think that is what they have to do to win. I just can't believe that to be the case.

I used to love tournaments, as well. They have lost their shine for me.

As for people building creative lists....I'm all for it. Those that build creative lists will have an advantage when they play those that don't know how to play against your list (for being odd ball). I think it's fun to come up with different lists that win vs. the meta, especially with ships people say aren't good.

What I do say give up on is trying to change anyone's opinion on what to fly, though. You will continue to see game after game of whatever the meta says is good over and over again. Just give up on trying to change people's opinions on flying lists that aren't widely accepted by the community. You will always see about the same 5 lists over and over again at tournaments. That won't ever change. It will just change what those lists are.

I've only heard terrible things about Epic.

I half justified my Raider purchase by saying I'd at least be able to organise I game of Epic to use it in (as well the ATC/Palpatine) but everybody around me refuses to play Epic after having tried it before.

Those people are negative nancies and you don't need them in your life.

But seriously though, it can take a bit of coaching to get people to adapt to a different style of playing. They 'figure out' the 100 point furball and know how to win, they don't feel as confident or the things they tried in Epic/Cinematic didn't work as well, so they prefer to stick with what they know because they feel it's more balanced. But just because they haven't figured out the balance of bigger points games doesn't mean it isn't there.

Try arranging a whole-afternoon game of Epic with teams. Advertise it on facebook for a week or so and then turn up with enough points to play at least one side (say 500 points) and just see who turns up. If more people turn up you can bring the points back to 250 per player or less, and if only one other person turns up, you can just play at 500 points each.

Or you can take baby steps and start by suggesting an escalation league, where players build up from say, 50 point squads and finish at say, 175. Just to get them used to playing at different points levels.

I want to show up at the store, spend 5 minutes setting up, and be able to fit in 2 or 3 games in an evening. The standard 100 point dog fight is perfect for that. I don't want to show up and find that since everyone is already playing it might be an hour or two until an opponent is free. Even worse, they finish their current games and are done for the night.

I LOVE people who bring creative lists. Nothing better than drawing softball match first round in a tournament to get an easy round 1 victory since you used your bye at the last one. Also they're good fallbacks in case something happens and you lose your first game you know you're fine since now you'll be playing the "fun table lists"

I belive it was Cornwallace in the Patriot who said "These rustics are so inept. It nearly takes the honor out of victory. Nearly."

I LOVE people who bring creative lists. Nothing better than drawing softball match first round in a tournament to get an easy round 1 victory since you used your bye at the last one. Also they're good fallbacks in case something happens and you lose your first game you know you're fine since now you'll be playing the "fun table lists"

I belive it was Cornwallace in the Patriot who said "These rustics are so inept. It nearly takes the honor out of victory. Nearly."

It was people with attitudes like this that really made it a joy to beat people at events with my odd ball lists. The look on one guy's face when I used a Z-95 to block Chewbacca's turn, boost, escape nonsense was utterly priceless.

I LOVE people who bring creative lists. Nothing better than drawing softball match first round in a tournament to get an easy round 1 victory since you used your bye at the last one. Also they're good fallbacks in case something happens and you lose your first game you know you're fine since now you'll be playing the "fun table lists"

I belive it was Cornwallace in the Patriot who said "These rustics are so inept. It nearly takes the honor out of victory. Nearly."

And these are my favorite type of players to play as a player that brings creative lists. Always great fun to beat the arrogant, all mighty type with my "softball" list and send them down even lower in the tournament because they just grabbed some list off the net they don't even know how to fly and aren't even aware of half the cards I'm using.

I LOVE people who bring creative lists. Nothing better than drawing softball match first round in a tournament to get an easy round 1 victory since you used your bye at the last one. Also they're good fallbacks in case something happens and you lose your first game you know you're fine since now you'll be playing the "fun table lists"

I belive it was Cornwallace in the Patriot who said "These rustics are so inept. It nearly takes the honor out of victory. Nearly."

And these are my favorite type of players to play as a player that brings creative lists. Always great fun to beat the arrogant, all mighty type with my "softball" list and send them down even lower in the tournament because they just grabbed some list off the net they don't even know how to fly and aren't even aware of half the cards I'm using.

I flew Stay on Target 4-LOM at a regional, and when the guy had to pick up the card and read it I involuntarily smirked a little bit.

Edit: I felt bad about the reaction afterwards, but I'm pretty darn sure I won that one.

Good luck beating Palp mini aces flown by skilled competent players instead of insecure netlisters.

I'm in the 3 out of 4 mirror match area where 26% of squads were Palpaces. I couldn't go to regionals because of other commitments thereby making the problem worse I guess.

I am exactly one of these people that you are talking about and I am about to take a break from organized play.

This isn't because I can't compete in this meta with other stuff because I can. Went top4 in store champ with Howlie, 3 obsidians and a patrol leader w/Vader. (lost in top4 cut to another original squad) Won another store champ with Imperial crackswarm and I've beat our Regional champion in the last two matches we played. Almost beat Palpaces at store champs with 5 naked scyks and a starviper (2 interceptors left at 1 hp at time after rolling 3 evades on two blocks)

What I don't like is facing so many Palpaces at the top and the excruciating task of list building squads that can beat Aces(have tons of these tested) but can also win against other stuff. It's just not fun.

Three of our store champs were won by original squads with Rebel Aces, bombs, and crackswarm but everybody still plays the meta squads at tournaments, casuals, and newly created league. I know some players would like to use other stuff but they just don't feel competitive using other stuff. The reality is that playing other lists is often a handicap and yes, the really good players can still win but for many meta lists are the way to go if they want to win.

I think it's on FFG to balance the game better and not add additional counters to stuff that's already hurting.

At one of the store champs my son played brobots and he faces Palpaces in the first two rounds for quick loses followed by a bye. Fortunately he won his last game vs Rebel swarm but that's still a pretty sh*tty tournament expirience.

I think my approach going forward will be to bring Palpaces hard counters. Kill them with fire and if someone is playing anything else, great! They need to be encouraged.

The problem is that in my area if I bring Feedback Array it's a waste of points against a Super Dash or Ghost. It's only not a waste of points when you face Acewings.

Good luck beating Palp mini aces flown by skilled competent players instead of insecure netlisters.

Thanks for the well wishes! I'll do my best!

Good luck beating Palp mini aces flown by skilled competent players instead of insecure netlisters.

Yeah, that's the problem. A decent player using Palp Aces will see obvious blocks coming and just not let you. It doesn't really matter if they run with an Ace and it takes unanswered fire because their aces are invincible.

From a philosophical standpoint, it takes a huge amount of ego to think that "There are going to be 25 people at this 100 person tournament with the same list as me, I will be first among them."

I know that if I take a common list, not only will I not be the best player there with that list, but everyone will have practiced against it.

I have to rely on a creative list and the element of surprise to make up for my lack of skill, for the moment. It is like the blog post from a few weeks ago on variance. Take something that you could get lucky with, or something that other people haven't seen or haven't practiced against. If everyone is taking similar lists or the same lists, you have to rely on being the best pilot.

I belive it was Cornwallace in the Patriot who said "These rustics are so inept. It nearly takes the honor out of victory. Nearly."

The English and the Scots must love having their national heroes squashed into one entity. . .

I think my approach going forward will be to bring Palpaces hard counters. Kill them with fire and if someone is playing anything else, great! They need to be encouraged.

The problem is that in my area if I bring Feedback Array it's a waste of points against a Super Dash or Ghost. It's only not a waste of points when you face Acewings.

Well yes, this approach won't win tournaments. The goal is to troll Ace wings and have fun.

I belive it was Cornwallace in the Patriot who said "These rustics are so inept. It nearly takes the honor out of victory. Nearly."

The English and the Scots must love having their national heroes squashed into one entity. . .

It's not an issue over here. After the tosh that was Braveheart what makes you think any of us saw The Patriot?