Watched some great X-wing streams today. A couple had awesome, non-typical lists take the top spot. This is exactly what we want from this game.

Yet, while these regionals gave hope for the diversity of the game, another regional had... 3 lists in the top 4 as mirrors...

All I want to say is, that if you don't like seeing this game devolve in to Palp Aces vs Uboats vs Imp Aholes, please be the difference you want to see. It's been proven that these are not the only lists that can win at the top level.

Be that guy that brings munitions BOSSK and wins. Be that guy that brings an Alpha Interceptor and wins. Be that guy that brings Gemmer Sojan and wins. Be the.. Heck, I don't know! The guy that takes the Tie Punisher and wins, or Mindlinked Talonbane, Guri and Palob and wins.

You are a CREATIVE, INTELLIGENT, HUMAN BEING. I promise you, even if you don't win, there is a lot of enjoyment to be had in competing with a list you came up with, even if you don't win. Heck, if you're anything like me, you'll probably feel better losing with a list you came up with than winning with one you did not. If you want, you can even use popular lists as a sort of template if you don't trust your list building abilities or your ability to judge a lists capability against the meta. But for goodness sake, do something to make the list your own.

Now not everyone would feel I am being fair. Some people truly are hyper competitive to the point that a key creative aspect of the game, listbuilding, is unimportant to them so much so that they simply take what they believe from research to be the consensus best list available. To those people, if winning is that important to you, that is fine. Do what you need to do. But this post is more to those players that don't fall under this category who are still taking these types of lists. Please, don't succumb to the pressure! Don't take the easy way to wins! Fight to learn a deeper aspect of the game in list building! I promise you if you do, you will find a deeper appreciation for the game that you otherwise will never have found.

This falls more into people enjoy different things. While diversity is awesome, some want to have a know quantity and win. Can't get mad at either side, everyone's definition of fun will be unique to that person.

I will always bring gemmer and etahn from now on. I've tried different rebel lists but love these two more than the rest of my stuff (except the ghost, that rocks but I don't know about the big bases yet)

What if you like playing ships like OL or the Inquisitor? Should you play lists you don't like because they've become popular after the fact?

What if you like playing ships like OL or the Inquisitor? Should you play lists you don't like because they've become popular after the fact?

No. You should play whatever you want. You just don't get to complain when other people play what they want and it's the same as you.

It's the old phrase "Put up or shut up".

If someone is unwilling to initiate or facilitate change in a circumstance, they have no right to complain about that circumstance not changing.

What if you like playing ships like OL or the Inquisitor? Should you play lists you don't like because they've become popular after the fact?

I don't think that's what the OP is saying?

Fly what you want to fly rather than what you think the meta says you should is the message I took.

I'm as guilty as anyone for loving at what is established as good in the meta but I do try to fly my own lists. Sometimes that matches up to what is known out there already though. An example being the VI Vader mini swarm. I came up with that in isolation and flew it a lot as a result regardless of seeing it pop up in a lot of places.

Human nature is hypocritical. We do like to moan about something but then often take the if you can't beat them join them approach. Beating them is possible though but too often we don't really try had enough and just fall in line with the meta.

Or even better, stop playing the boring tournament format games over and over! Try some different points levels, try some scenarios, use some Epic ships, play Heroes of the Aturi cluster, mix it up a little!

Or even better, stop playing the boring tournament format games over and over! Try some different points levels, try some scenarios, use some Epic ships, play Heroes of the Aturi cluster, mix it up a little!

This is just hurting what the OP is trying to suggest. By calling one format boring, you already are showing a bias, which is no better then people complaining but being part of the problem. He's asking for people to change it up if they see a rut, or stop complaining. You have done the changing up, but much like earlier, ever persons opinion on fun will differ, and currently the vast majority enjoy the "boring" tournament standard.

Looking at the top fours lately I'm wondering if there is even any point going to regionals - it's going to be two palp aces vs. Two jumpmaster lists, or if we are very lucky there might be a crackshot TIE swarm in the mix. Can't see my rebel aces getting anywhere near it.

Think I'm going to drop out of organised play for a bit, except for local store/club events.

non-turrets proton torpedoes is real chaep and requires no skill unlike arc dodgers so please FFG nerf palsma torpedoes (speling was intentonal)

Looking at the top fours lately I'm wondering if there is even any point going to regionals - it's going to be two palp aces vs. Two jumpmaster lists, or if we are very lucky there might be a crackshot TIE swarm in the mix. Can't see my rebel aces getting anywhere near it.

Think I'm going to drop out of organised play for a bit, except for local store/club events.

currently the vast majority enjoy the "boring" tournament standard.

Gamers are precious. They don't like to deviate away from the 'official' way to play, but I'd wager that most players would enjoy playing X Wing in a different way. I'd wager most players would even enjoy it about as much as they enjoy the 100 point tournament snoozefest, and I'd wager a lot of players would enjoy it more.

Without polling the forum, I'd hazard a guess that a lot of people here have never played Epic. And of the ones that have, they can probably count the number of games they've played on one hand. That's not enough to get to grips with a new game format and work out what builds work and what don't, so even of the people who've played Epic, only a small handful will have played it enough to actually develop an understanding of it.

And that's only 'official' Epic with a 300 points limit and ship limits and stuff. Wait till you bust out ALL the toys and start playing 600+ points cinematic games! Or Heroes of the Aturi cluster! HotAC is the most fun you can have with your pants on!

If people are bored with the meta in their area, rather than trying to force new builds into a stale format they'd be better served by stepping away from that format altogether for a game or two and trying something different. Even if they don't like it much, at least they've tried something new and gained a new appreciation for tournament standard games.

Looking at the top fours lately I'm wondering if there is even any point going to regionals - it's going to be two palp aces vs. Two jumpmaster lists, or if we are very lucky there might be a crackshot TIE swarm in the mix. Can't see my rebel aces getting anywhere near it.

Think I'm going to drop out of organised play for a bit, except for local store/club events.

This attitude is also part of the problem. Two regionals have been won by 5 A wings. If you want to show others that there are other viable lists, do so. Don't back out. If anything that should make training for it much easier. The regional I TOed saw a large number of swarms on the field, a crack swarm winning it all, an unorthodox imperial aces list making top 4, only 1 wolf pack style UBoat list making the top 8, and a 9th place player that ran a very interesting 3 ship rebel build that most would of scoffed at. So there is variance out there, but if everyone has the "oh in going to back out cause only x will show up", it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

I've always flown non-meta lists, and whilst I always win at least as many games as I lose its an uphill struggle.

I was just about to post a rant about the meta in my local store. Yes, regionals or any tournament is a competitive place and you can bring you Uboats or aceholes in there, but I just went to my store for casual games day and out of 32 people there 14 were playing Uboats and 10 were playing aces. Yes, I counted. On casual f**** night! Me and another friend, fans of Boba and Dengar were like "why are we even here?"

Is that not because its tourney season though and people want to practice though? Or is it always that way?

This topic reminds me too much of all the guys who dropped their "beloved" previous build to go 3 toilets and then went on how they always wanted to play them, because they knew it was going to be oh so fun.

People will always pick up the most efficient stuff for competetive play, otherwise they're just being handicapped. Get over it. X-wing excells at pretending it has a ton of choices and customizability, but unfortunately 90% of that is not viable for top-tier play.

Yeah, it is boring for that weird person that might want to enjoy some thematic immersion in the game AND play at a competitive level. Sadly, FFG keeps on releasing unbalanced cards. And i'm still convinced, that the top tier lists, especially U-boats, are partly so common simply because they are so easy to play with and win with little thought, and thus easy to pick up... the same as with four- TLT lists and PWT lists before that.

Palp aces is just there because Palpy is undercosted, and takes the chance out of the game allowing skilled players to beat face more consistently.

But the game is still not the worst in terms of power balance, you still see those people that are the exception to the rule.

I can't tell other's how to have their fun, all i can do is bring a hard counter to the latest netlist! Nothing satisfies better than seeing that smug grin wiped off a tournament-goers face.

I was just about to post a rant about the meta in my local store. Yes, regionals or any tournament is a competitive place and you can bring you Uboats or aceholes in there, but I just went to my store for casual games day and out of 32 people there 14 were playing Uboats and 10 were playing aces. Yes, I counted. On casual f**** night! Me and another friend, fans of Boba and Dengar were like "why are we even here?"

Try some Epic! Get Heroes of the Aturi cluster up and running! There's so much scope to X Wing it's frankly depressing that you could walk into a place with 32 people playing and they're all playing the exact same game format, let along using the same/similar lists!

Escalation is fun, our store group enjoys doing those tournaments every so often. HotAC got rather boring to me, AI, regardless of how well implemented is still AI. I hate playing bots cause that bores me to tears, usually easy to see through and beat without effort (tried Heroes, the group was ok with it and we will try again but it didn't grab anyone's attention). Epic I do want to get more into, but anything past 400, no. Past that, it is no longer a game but a diorama. Playing 3 turns then having to pack up isn't my idea of fun. But see that's all my opinion.

The tournament games only grow stale when players refuse to learn new things. Much like chest, there are many moves then just the ones a beginner sees. Which can easily be mistaken for a stale environment.

It's already forfilled, just look at the last few regionals. One of them was top four all jumpmasters. Pointing to a couple of exceptions doesn't change that. We've been through this with fat Han and deci-aces already, and we'll go through it again when the next big thing hits too. I'm just burnt out with it.

I've always flown non-meta lists, and whilst I always win at least as many games as I lose its an uphill struggle.

The same can be said to you about being selective. Right now the top 8 favor imperial aces, this is true. Most people will always play the FoTM, that's any game. If you want something different, like I already said, I would suggest contiune playing your lists and refining it.

Back when I got into tournament play, people mostly favored han/chewie and Bs. They thought I was mad for taking interceptors (before AT). Even had one player scoff at me at a regional. That just helped fuel me realize that, while yes I might fight the same list multiple times, that list will be played differently per each player. That made it a challenge, and that made it fun. Some times it's best to stop relying on others to make the game fun for you, and rather play the game to better yourself, and challenge your previous conceived notions.

I don't get what you mean by selective. Do I refine these non-meta lists or play flavour of the month. I don't really understand what you're getting at.

Peeps need to git gud brah.

Kdubb, you're a great poster, but everything you suggest here goes against human nature in my opinion.

In a nutshell, in any competetive environment, there will be certain strategies which are dominant over others, so others will either try to adopt those strategies or try to counter them. This is also why we call it the meta-game, it's the game of predicting who brings the counter to a dominant strategy or the counter to the counter-strategy, and so on and so forth. It's almost the exact opposite of "just run the list you like even if you dont win" as you suggest here.

It's the equivalent of telling NBA teams to stop acquiring shooters for their teams just because Curry is the best there is.

This meta-process translates into present day x-wing by most competetive players either running uboats or their most obvious counters, palp aces and crack swarm. Note that both of these lists have been good before, but have only recently gained so much steam because their counters (mostly rebel regen and stressbot) have been pushed out of the meta. This did not happen by accident.

Sure there are outliers and some people simply refusing to take part in the meta, but you cant fault players for bringing the "best" lists, counter-lists and counter-counter-lists. It's a natural process in competetive environments and does not mean these players are not intelligent as you suggest. In many ways it's quite the opposite, it's only logical that the "best" players would adopt the dominant strategies or their best counter-strategies or (...).

Hope this makes sense.

I play Scouts. I enjoy flying them. The dial is unusual, and the mechanic solves my dislike of leaving dice to their own devices. I've played three of them, but I have more fun playing two, with some form of support, so that's what I do.

I really don't care who thinks they're boring, broken, or OP. I enjoy flying them, and since I regularly end up playing against Rebel Aces and PalpAces lists above anything else anyway, why wouldn't I? When the Defenders arrive, I'll probably switch, bit until then, let the salt flow.

I don't believe OP is saying don't play meta-lists.

He's saying don't complain about meta-lists and then play them.

Essentially, stop complaining about the problem if you're part of it.

I'm going to do my best. Taking a BBBiggs list to a regional. I'll report.

but I just don't think it can do anything PalpAceOmegaSoontir