" ref tokens with a CF dial can not be done."

Okay so this came up recently for us.

You can't spend a CF token and dial at the same time? Are they not spent at the same time durning a one shot, like any other token/dial combo, therefore it is one command of one type?

I watched towards the end of this game after I'd finished my game, being on table 3, and the way you out played him seemed to be making him more stressed. I must have missed the Screed incident, but with the fleet you were playing (3 Glads + some fighters) you were always spamming Nav commands and the way he reacted when you had forgotten to turn over your command dial was bad. Yes, he was correct on calling you up on it and not letting you do the extra click, but the way he jumped on the incident was aggressive, and the way he acted when you offered your hand after you beat him was like a pouty child folding his arms and refusing to go to his bed because he'd been naughty.

I know it was a long day and I was getting frustrated (Private Rymer (yes he's been demoted) and his bunch couldn't shoot and fish in a barrel, if the fish was a whale shark, the barrel had plank length diametre, using a Reality Bomb), but I showed it to the game, not the player.

People need to remember we are just moving plastic toys to winning some more plastic things to go with the game we enjoy and keep it in context.

If it was our livelyhood and we and were getting paid, even then his attitude was bad.

Well done on the Regional win

I think you've got inty and thte other chap the wrong way round. Inty didn't win the game

Looks like you saw more of the action than the rest of us though

Are you the fella who came third with the Motti list btw ?

" ref tokens with a CF dial can not be done."

Okay so this came up recently for us.

You can't spend a CF token and dial at the same time? Are they not spent at the same time durning a one shot, like any other token/dial combo, therefore it is one command of one type?

You can. However there is a risk involved. Once you spend that dial you have to declare the token at the same time. Once that token is spent, even if the reroll is not used, it is lost.

The only wait and see token in the game is the Evade token. It is such because it occurs immediately on use while the other defense tokens happen later.

" ref tokens with a CF dial can not be done."

Okay so this came up recently for us.

You can't spend a CF token and dial at the same time? Are they not spent at the same time durning a one shot, like any other token/dial combo, therefore it is one command of one type?

You can. However there is a risk involved. Once you spend that dial you have to declare the token at the same time. Once that token is spent, even if the reroll is not used, it is lost.

The only wait and see token in the game is the Evade token. It is such because it occurs immediately on use while the other defense tokens happen later.

Wait really?

So, what is the right order:

Declare an attack target, Pre-roll declare CF dial or dial+token (if you have a token, can you declare not using it?), ROLL, forced to use CF?

(This also then assumes that you you'd have to basically also declare which of the first or second shot will be CFed before you even roll).

Or is it

Declare attack target, roll, Declare use of CF, dial / token/ both?

" ref tokens with a CF dial can not be done."

Okay so this came up recently for us.

You can't spend a CF token and dial at the same time? Are they not spent at the same time durning a one shot, like any other token/dial combo, therefore it is one command of one type?

You can. However there is a risk involved. Once you spend that dial you have to declare the token at the same time. Once that token is spent, even if the reroll is not used, it is lost.

The only wait and see token in the game is the Evade token. It is such because it occurs immediately on use while the other defense tokens happen later.

Wait really?

So, what is the right order:

Declare an attack target, Pre-roll declare CF dial or dial+token (if you have a token, can you declare not using it?), ROLL, forced to use CF?

(This also then assumes that you you'd have to basically also declare which of the first or second shot will be CFed before you even roll).

Or is it

Declare attack target, roll, Declare use of CF, dial / token/ both?

Declare target, roll, use Con fire Dial + Token.

You cannot say, Declare target, Roll, use Dial, then after the dial use the token to reroll the same or another Dice. (It counts as resolving the command twice which is not allowed)

" ref tokens with a CF dial can not be done."

Okay so this came up recently for us.

You can't spend a CF token and dial at the same time? Are they not spent at the same time durning a one shot, like any other token/dial combo, therefore it is one command of one type?

You can. However there is a risk involved. Once you spend that dial you have to declare the token at the same time. Once that token is spent, even if the reroll is not used, it is lost.

The only wait and see token in the game is the Evade token. It is such because it occurs immediately on use while the other defense tokens happen later.

Somebody in our group spent two at once, on a gamble, was told he could not. Spat ensured until he said **** it I wont.

" ref tokens with a CF dial can not be done."

Okay so this came up recently for us.

You can't spend a CF token and dial at the same time? Are they not spent at the same time durning a one shot, like any other token/dial combo, therefore it is one command of one type?

You can. However there is a risk involved. Once you spend that dial you have to declare the token at the same time. Once that token is spent, even if the reroll is not used, it is lost.

The only wait and see token in the game is the Evade token. It is such because it occurs immediately on use while the other defense tokens happen later.

Great! That's how we went with it, albeit after the fact.

Somebody in our group spent two at once, on a gamble, was told he could not. Spat ensured until he said **** it I wont.

Two CF tokens? you can only have one of each token type, up to your command limit, so max 3 tokens, all different.

You can roll your dice, then choose to add the CF command dial dice after you roll, but if you want to use the token, you have to declare when you add the dice.

Token & dial

Actually, I've now had casual play opponents and tournament play opponents attempt to literally throw me off my mental stride to take wins. Doing like halting play to exact the exact procedure to roll added dice and things (when literally it was simply a single add without complications.) Other things like trying to choose what hull zone I targeted like that one post in page 1.

This one always pissed me off. Usually because its sent as a luring of you to play the "fly casual" game of high honor and then he decides to curve ball it to the end of the game.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that psychological warfare is fair in war... However, I'd like to point out that we aren't actually AT WAR. We're playing a game, a pretend war game. I want to have a fun decent time, and that tends to rule out psychological attacks. Sorry, but if you take the game that seriously, its really really hard to consider wanting to talk to you much ever again.

Even more so I resent the type of psychological attacks that are meant to throw less-experienced players off their stride. Some of us have other hobbies, commitments, people we need to be with. Not everyone gets to practice as often as they like. Sure, you should have a strong advantage from playing a lot, but really, don't make the already daunting leap from casual to competitive worse by exacting these little advantages that you really shouldn't need against a newer player.

I've always been a casual player and never did mind losing to a well-played game but this experience really soured the game. Thankfully, I had three awesome games beforehand so I know it's not the game but the gamer.

Scenario:

His Screed is in a Glad 1 with 1 hull left and 2 remaining shields on the left side. I shoot at it from the front arc of my Glad 1 (to his rear arc) and I had a reroll token. I get four hits, I have Screed and APTs. I see my four hits, I say "Ah! I don't even need the reroll" and proceed to put the token back on my ship card. Before I could even look up, he goes "I brace it and redirect to my two remaining shields, I live! Thank you!" I told him I've not even Screed-ed yet and he says the opportunity has passed and I didn't even modify the dice anyway (as I put my token back) and he's already dealt the damage. I said no, I just didn't need the reroll, not with 4 hits on 4 dice, but I could still Screed and kick in the APTs. No, he's already dealt the damage, and he wouldn't let me Screed.

Note that he was comfortable taking backsies on his own actions before and after this bit.

In 20-20 hindsight and with the benefit of rest, I should've called the TO at this point but that was the 4th game, maybe around 6pm and I was there since 8:30am and was up since 5:30am so a very long day. I would not want to say what the TO would've ruled at that point but suffice to say I've called him over at least 3 times prior in earlier games and he was very patient and went by the rules as I understood them (or as I was made to understand them! I learned at least 2 new [good] things yesterday!) so I would probably been happier with an official ruling.

In truth it seems like he jumped the gun and thought you where finished and misunderstood and those things do happen and in a tournament people are always on edge but in truth the opportunity has not passed until you informed the player you have finished modifying you attack. If he misunderstood you that's his own error and I can see that pulses would be racing as its an important event that means a big difference to the game. Its at this point if you don't agree to just call a pause and ask a TO to make a call on the actions it is after all part of the reason they are on hand.

I know who he is refering to and I'm afraid the player knew exactly what he was doing.....

slash his tires.......

I think if nothing else, what people should take away from this is never be afraid to call the TO/Judge over if you and the other guy can't agree on something.

That is the whole point of the TO/Judge being there. To settle these kinds of disputes, and make sure people at least play fairly. But I've seen a number of people who are afraid to call the TO over. They seem to think getting the TO involved is an accusation of cheating or that the TO has something better to do.

But neither of those things are really true, and no one should ever feel bad for calling the TO over. Better to do that then walk away from the table from a game that wasn't played fairly.

I mean in this case, the other guy clearly jumped the gun. You never said you were done modifying the dice just that you didn't need to re-roll.

Hmmmm I am disliking he whole "Fly casual" line. While a hood line I would rather it be "Command Casual".

lol that doesn't have much ring compared to Han's iconic line. =P

To me "fly casual" is an attitude.

You can play tight and still "fly casual". Do not confuse sloppy play with flying casual.

If my opponent isn't going to fly casual, I'll be flying somewhere else.

Plastic spaceships <<<<<<<<<<<< relationships with people. If you don't agree, you have my pity, but not my play

To me "fly casual" is an attitude.

You can play tight and still "fly casual". Do not confuse sloppy play with flying casual.

This. To me, "fly casual" means, sure, play the game, follow the rules, and try to win, but never any of those things at the expense of your interpersonal relationships.

I watched towards the end of this game after I'd finished my game, being on table 3, and the way you out played him seemed to be making him more stressed. I must have missed the Screed incident, but with the fleet you were playing (3 Glads + some fighters) you were always spamming Nav commands and the way he reacted when you had forgotten to turn over your command dial was bad. Yes, he was correct on calling you up on it and not letting you do the extra click, but the way he jumped on the incident was aggressive, and the way he acted when you offered your hand after you beat him was like a pouty child folding his arms and refusing to go to his bed because he'd been naughty.

I know it was a long day and I was getting frustrated (Private Rymer (yes he's been demoted) and his bunch couldn't shoot and fish in a barrel, if the fish was a whale shark, the barrel had plank length diametre, using a Reality Bomb), but I showed it to the game, not the player.

People need to remember we are just moving plastic toys to winning some more plastic things to go with the game we enjoy and keep it in context.

If it was our livelyhood and we and were getting paid, even then his attitude was bad.

Well done on the Regional win

I think you've got inty and thte other chap the wrong way round. Inty didn't win the game

Looks like you saw more of the action than the rest of us though

Are you the fella who came third with the Motti list btw ?

Ok, I'm sorry I got the players the wrong way round as I didn't know both were running Screed.

This changes my perspective as I was coming at this from the wrong assumption and I apologise for this.

I had played the other person in the previous round and didn't expect him to do something like this.

Also I only watched the last 20-30 minutes of the game and as I said I missed the Screed incident.

@Intys Rule. I can completely see now why you were stressed. I'm sorry now for what I said about you and take back most of it as I made a wrong guess at who was posting this (without real names on forums mistakes can happen, sorry). The only thing I will stick to is the way you acted when your opponent hadn't revealled his dial, but can see that it came from frustration with him. I understand now why you refused to shake his hand after the game. I apologise if any of my previous comments upset you, as I had my facts completely the wrong way round and now know better. I'm sorry this marred a good day for with it being the last round.

If you do have to play him again, tell a judge you have had issues in a previous game and if you do play each other again I hope it is in better spirits than this one.

@Ma22a. No, my Motti lost and I came 15th

" ref tokens with a CF dial can not be done."

Okay so this came up recently for us.

You can't spend a CF token and dial at the same time? Are they not spent at the same time durning a one shot, like any other token/dial combo, therefore it is one command of one type?

You can. However there is a risk involved. Once you spend that dial you have to declare the token at the same time. Once that token is spent, even if the reroll is not used, it is lost.

The only wait and see token in the game is the Evade token. It is such because it occurs immediately on use while the other defense tokens happen later.

Wait really?

So, what is the right order:

Declare an attack target, Pre-roll declare CF dial or dial+token (if you have a token, can you declare not using it?), ROLL, forced to use CF?

(This also then assumes that you you'd have to basically also declare which of the first or second shot will be CFed before you even roll).

Or is it

Declare attack target, roll, Declare use of CF, dial / token/ both?

Declare target, roll, use Con fire Dial + Token.

You cannot say, Declare target, Roll, use Dial, then after the dial use the token to reroll the same or another Dice. (It counts as resolving the command twice which is not allowed)

Hang on, is this the same for other dials as well? Like, if I use a squadron command but don't need the token, does the token disappear as well? We've always played it that you can use token OR dial OR both at your discretion.

" ref tokens with a CF dial can not be done."

Okay so this came up recently for us.

You can't spend a CF token and dial at the same time? Are they not spent at the same time durning a one shot, like any other token/dial combo, therefore it is one command of one type?

You can. However there is a risk involved. Once you spend that dial you have to declare the token at the same time. Once that token is spent, even if the reroll is not used, it is lost.

The only wait and see token in the game is the Evade token. It is such because it occurs immediately on use while the other defense tokens happen later.

Wait really?

So, what is the right order:

Declare an attack target, Pre-roll declare CF dial or dial+token (if you have a token, can you declare not using it?), ROLL, forced to use CF?

(This also then assumes that you you'd have to basically also declare which of the first or second shot will be CFed before you even roll).

Or is it

Declare attack target, roll, Declare use of CF, dial / token/ both?

Declare target, roll, use Con fire Dial + Token.

You cannot say, Declare target, Roll, use Dial, then after the dial use the token to reroll the same or another Dice. (It counts as resolving the command twice which is not allowed)

Hang on, is this the same for other dials as well? Like, if I use a squadron command but don't need the token, does the token disappear as well? We've always played it that you can use token OR dial OR both at your discretion.

This string of comments has become confusing to some folks I think. Nothing 'disappears.' The point is that when you use the dial to roll an extra die, you have to decide then whether you want to use the token for a reroll as well. You can't roll your extra die, then determine that the reroll is needed as it's too late. The unused token remains for use in a future turn. However, if you chose to use the dial and the token at once, rolled the extra die, got what you wanted and don't want to reroll anymore, the the spent token is still spent and therefor gone. This would really only come up if your initial roll came up as all results you wouldn't want to reroll, and you used the token (at the same time as the dial) to hedge your bets on the roll of the extra die from the dial.

Squadron commands work similarly. When use use the dial, you must declare the token. However, if you only use the dial, the token doesn't go anywhere and is usable in later turns.

This string of comments has become confusing to some folks I think. Nothing 'disappears.' The point is that when you use the dial to roll an extra die, you have to decide then whether you want to use the token for a reroll as well. You can't roll your extra die, then determine that the reroll is needed as it's too late. The unused token remains for use in a future turn. However, if you chose to use the dial and the token at once, rolled the extra die, got what you wanted and don't want to reroll anymore, the the spent token is still spent and therefor gone. This would really only come up if your initial roll came up as all results you wouldn't want to reroll, and you used the token (at the same time as the dial) to hedge your bets on the roll of the extra die from the dial.

Squadron commands work similarly. When use use the dial, you must declare the token. However, if you only use the dial, the token doesn't go anywhere and is usable in later turns.

Ok, we've been doing it right then

To me "fly casual" is an attitude.

You can play tight and still "fly casual". Do not confuse sloppy play with flying casual.

This string of comments has become confusing to some folks I think. Nothing 'disappears.' The point is that when you use the dial to roll an extra die, you have to decide then whether you want to use the token for a reroll as well. You can't roll your extra die, then determine that the reroll is needed as it's too late. The unused token remains for use in a future turn. However, if you chose to use the dial and the token at once, rolled the extra die, got what you wanted and don't want to reroll anymore, the the spent token is still spent and therefor gone. This would really only come up if your initial roll came up as all results you wouldn't want to reroll, and you used the token (at the same time as the dial) to hedge your bets on the roll of the extra die from the dial. Squadron commands work similarly. When use use the dial, you must declare the token. However, if you only use the dial, the token doesn't go anywhere and is usable in later turns.

So let's say you use a squadron command and spend the token just to make sure you get the kill. Let's say with the token you have 4 squadrons and by the third one, the target is destroyed. You spent the token, so you can either activate your 4th squadron or not.

Concentrate Fire token and dial are the same way. They have to be spent at the same time, once they are you don't get them back even if you did not use them.

I've always been a casual player and never did mind losing to a well-played game but this experience really soured the game. Thankfully, I had three awesome games beforehand so I know it's not the game but the gamer.

Scenario:

His Screed is in a Glad 1 with 1 hull left and 2 remaining shields on the left side. I shoot at it from the front arc of my Glad 1 (to his rear arc) and I had a reroll token. I get four hits, I have Screed and APTs. I see my four hits, I say "Ah! I don't even need the reroll" and proceed to put the token back on my ship card. Before I could even look up, he goes "I brace it and redirect to my two remaining shields, I live! Thank you!" I told him I've not even Screed-ed yet and he says the opportunity has passed and I didn't even modify the dice anyway (as I put my token back) and he's already dealt the damage. I said no, I just didn't need the reroll, not with 4 hits on 4 dice, but I could still Screed and kick in the APTs. No, he's already dealt the damage, and he wouldn't let me Screed.

Note that he was comfortable taking backsies on his own actions before and after this bit.

In 20-20 hindsight and with the benefit of rest, I should've called the TO at this point but that was the 4th game, maybe around 6pm and I was there since 8:30am and was up since 5:30am so a very long day. I would not want to say what the TO would've ruled at that point but suffice to say I've called him over at least 3 times prior in earlier games and he was very patient and went by the rules as I understood them (or as I was made to understand them! I learned at least 2 new [good] things yesterday!) so I would probably been happier with an official ruling.

Blarg, my inner Rage Melon would have been coming out at this point. You are far calmer than I could ever hope to be. Hats off.

I play games to have fun and not be cheated. If those things don't happen i stop playing.

It is a risk you take by attending a tournament. has everyone of my tournament opponents been fun? no. have they all played within the parameters of the rules? no. We all make mistakes.

The higher the stakes the worse it gets.

This comes up in Warmachine all the time. "we were playing a fun, casually competitive game, until i forgot an ability and my opponent said too bad." These people will quantify it as "i want to win and its a competitive event". You allow them to do a redo because they seem friendly or you want their best game. It is my big issue with the gaming community. its all fun and games until it actually matters.

I really wish a company would put this line in their rules packets "if your opponent lets you correct mistakes (take backs) and you refuse the same treatment, they may throat punch you" I mean not really that extreme but if you want to see me personally lose it, let me allow you to redo a positioning or change a ships activation to another ship after revealing dials, and then when i say "hey i forgot to move this squadron, do you mind" and say "too bad..." the urge to table flip rises.