And yet him dying caused more deaths than him and his empire staying in power and kept holding back the Vong.

Though even without legends the point stands that he did not created the separatists,

So I take it you didn't see Episodes 2 and 3? He totally created the atmosphere that fostered the planets breaking away, he put his puppet in charge of them so he could encourage them to break away and he called every single shot on both sides. He (and perhaps his master) were 100% responsible for the creation of the confederacy.

1- When it comes to lightsabers: Rey defeated a much more experienced dualist when she calmed and centered herself. Obi-Wan did use his anger while fighting Maul... and very nearly lost. He only defeated Maul when he calmed and centered himself. Obi-Wan also did not resort to using the Dark Side (or otherwise using his anger or fear) when he defeated Grievous or Anakin (although he did vent his pent up anger after he defeated Anakin).

2- When it comes to Obi-Wan and Yoda, what they knew about defeating Anakin, and when... well, the Jedi have a habit of using lies, deceit, and obfuscation. They likely knew more about the prophecy of the Chosen One than they let on - and they certainly didn't let on to Luke that there was any such thing. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda were mentors for Luke with decades (well, centuries) of combined experience training Jedi. They knew Luke's mother and his father. They knew Owen and Beru and the world he grew up on. They knew how he would react to situations and to what they said - that he might listen to their counsel, but he was still hardheaded and keep his own counsel.

Moreover, they must have known that had Luke succeeded in destroying Vader - killing Anakin - that it would have achieved very little. The Emperor would have found a new apprentice (perhaps even Luke) and the Empire's tyranny would have endured, the Sith still ruling the galaxy.

Similarly, killing the Emperor and letting Vader live simply changes the character of the Empire, not it's foundations and it does not destroy the Sith. What must happen is that Luke must destroy the Emperor and eliminate Vader. I remind you that Vader was one of the most accomplished, if not the most skilled, dualists of the age. And the Emperor was far more powerful than Luke could ever hope to defeat by himself. There is no way that Obi-Wan and Yoda would let their "last hope" (or second-to-last hope or last best hope) waltz into a slaughter.

No, the only path to victory for the Jedi was that which occurred: Luke turns Vader, Vader (or Vader and Luke) destroys the Emperor. Obi-Wan and Yoda told Luke exactly what he needed to hear, when he needed to hear it.

BTW, the voice actress for the presence is the same as or Ventress, Nika Futterman was in Kotor as well, though I have no idea if she did female Revan as well, it seems like that voice actress is nowhere listed. Great now I am hyped for season 3 rebels, and I have no idea when season 3 will start. Thank you guys.

Revan had a speaking part in KotOR?

Yes.

Ok.

Yes.

Ok.

Rino Romano did the male part.

Oh, right! When you switched around characters. Good call!

1- When it comes to lightsabers: Rey defeated a much more experienced dualist when she calmed and centered herself. Obi-Wan did use his anger while fighting Maul... and very nearly lost. He only defeated Maul when he calmed and centered himself. Obi-Wan also did not resort to using the Dark Side (or otherwise using his anger or fear) when he defeated Grievous or Anakin (although he did vent his pent up anger after he defeated Anakin).

2- When it comes to Obi-Wan and Yoda, what they knew about defeating Anakin, and when... well, the Jedi have a habit of using lies, deceit, and obfuscation. They likely knew more about the prophecy of the Chosen One than they let on - and they certainly didn't let on to Luke that there was any such thing. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda were mentors for Luke with decades (well, centuries) of combined experience training Jedi. They knew Luke's mother and his father. They knew Owen and Beru and the world he grew up on. They knew how he would react to situations and to what they said - that he might listen to their counsel, but he was still hardheaded and keep his own counsel.

Moreover, they must have known that had Luke succeeded in destroying Vader - killing Anakin - that it would have achieved very little. The Emperor would have found a new apprentice (perhaps even Luke) and the Empire's tyranny would have endured, the Sith still ruling the galaxy.

Similarly, killing the Emperor and letting Vader live simply changes the character of the Empire, not it's foundations and it does not destroy the Sith. What must happen is that Luke must destroy the Emperor and eliminate Vader. I remind you that Vader was one of the most accomplished, if not the most skilled, dualists of the age. And the Emperor was far more powerful than Luke could ever hope to defeat by himself. There is no way that Obi-Wan and Yoda would let their "last hope" (or second-to-last hope or last best hope) waltz into a slaughter.

No, the only path to victory for the Jedi was that which occurred: Luke turns Vader, Vader (or Vader and Luke) destroys the Emperor. Obi-Wan and Yoda told Luke exactly what he needed to hear, when he needed to hear it.

There is no way Obi-Wan was entirely centered during the Maul fight. They wouldn't have made the music flare up and Obi-Wan yell NOOOOOOOOOO! If he wasn't slightly off emotionally. Also he was winning the fight until Maul just force pushed him into the shaft, of which there is really 0 defense (in the rpg and in the movies). I mean, he started off his 1v1 with Maul by finding his weak spot and destroying half of his lightsaber. While I agree he was mainly using the light side of the force there, he was definitely using some of his emotions to fuel his strength. Remember, he was a Padawan Jedi whereas Maul was a Sith Lord. The emotions probably gave him the strength he needed to win that fight.

As far as Rey goes... I feel like she was calm for a few seconds when she first intentionally tapped into the force to fuel her strength but really quickly after that she goes back to how she has been through the entire film. Angry, angry, angry.

There is no way Obi-Wan was entirely centered during the Maul fight.

He definitely wasn't, that was the point. Obiwan's snarl was a giveaway, never mind everything else. If you subscribe to the Ring theory, it's even clear from the way the scene was shot and arranged, with the spot usually reserved for the "villain" given to Obiwan. And to make it more clear, TCW explores this when Obiwan is captured by Maul and Savage, and is rescued by Ventress. Maul taunts Obiwan about Qui Gon's death, and Obiwan responds with ineffective rage...which Maul further uses to taunt him saying "Your rage has unbalanced you...that's not the Jedi way, is it?" By the time they meet again, Obiwan's had a chance to reassess and recenter, and manages hold them both at bay and at least disable Savage.

When it comes to Obi-Wan and Yoda, what they knew about defeating Anakin, and when... well, the Jedi have a habit of using lies, deceit, and obfuscation. They likely knew more about the prophecy of the Chosen One than they let on - and they certainly didn't let on to Luke that there was any such thing.

Er...that or Lucas hadn't invented the "Chosen One" idea yet. You can't hold everything they did and said in the OT accountable to the PT.

Yoda's line is pretty nebulous anyway. "You must confront Vader." He doesn't say "kill". All he knows if they have to meet, and if Luke keeps to his training, some desirable outcome will emerge.

When it comes to Obi-Wan and Yoda, what they knew about defeating Anakin, and when... well, the Jedi have a habit of using lies, deceit, and obfuscation. They likely knew more about the prophecy of the Chosen One than they let on - and they certainly didn't let on to Luke that there was any such thing.

Er...that or Lucas hadn't invented the "Chosen One" idea yet. You can't hold everything they did and said in the OT accountable to the PT.

Yoda's line is pretty nebulous anyway. "You must confront Vader." He doesn't say "kill". All he knows if they have to meet, and if Luke keeps to his training, some desirable outcome will emerge.

I agree they kept it vague. Confront really just means stand up to; doesn't say anything in itself about killing but taking this from a purely common sense aspect...

They want him to become a better wizard knight. You could say it's for defense but the idea of protecting even oneself can very well involve violence. This means they expect things to get violent. If we are looking at the 2 trilogy's of films as a supposedly congruent, continuous story then the few moments where Yoda and Obi-Wan talk about Vader as he is in the OT are pretty big indicators of what their intent for Luke is.

Sure the "Chosen One" thing hadn't been a thing yet but the very idea that Luke wanted to save his father shows that he had faith in him and that the chosen one part wasn't really required for the redemption story that is the OT. In fact, the Chosen One idea wasn't really important at all to the story of Star Wars. Anakin would still have been a super powerful jedi, still done the things he chose to do and the plot would still have ended up where it was at the end of RotJ without the need for a Chosen One prophecy that's only ever vaguely mentioned.

Back on subject, Obi-Wan lies to him about his parentage, Yoda commits a lie of omission for not telling Luke. Obi-Wan also doesn't just lie about Anakin turning evil but tells Luke that Vader killed his father, knowing full well this partially trained orphan boy who's only heard great things about his father, Anakin Skywalker, is going to point all of his anger and hate at Darth Vader, the man who killed his father. They were trying to get him to kill Darth Vader.

I think it might be better to just "agree to disagree" when it comes to assigning intent regarding "the plan" to have Luke be the one to square off against Vader. Though I think the fact that Ben and Yoda both insist that Luke has to "confront" Vader indicates their intent may not be quite as dark as some ascribe it to be. To me at least, it felt more like they were preparing Luke to face off with Vader, and from there were willing to place their trust in the Force to see to the rest, that perhaps Luke would succeed in reaching Anakin where they had failed. Going by the sixth season of Clone Wars, we do know that Yoda was very much playing a long game, and it could well have been his intent that by not giving Luke direct instructions on what to do once he "confronted" Vader, he was trusting to the boy's innate goodness to make the right choice. In that light, the whole thing sounds more like a Batman Gambit with a dash of speed chess than a proper "plan."

But ultimately, there's not really going to be a right answer unless Lucas comes out and says what Ben and Yoda's intent was. Granted, since the man has been known to do "revisionist truths" about what his plan was for the Star Wars story, even that may not be truly definitive.

Back on subject, Obi-Wan lies to him about his parentage, Yoda commits a lie of omission for not telling Luke. Obi-Wan also doesn't just lie about Anakin turning evil but tells Luke that Vader killed his father, knowing full well this partially trained orphan boy who's only heard great things about his father, Anakin Skywalker, is going to point all of his anger and hate at Darth Vader, the man who killed his father. They were trying to get him to kill Darth Vader.

You seem to be forgetting that they didn't want Luke to go to Bespin because they didn't think he was ready. It's a common theme in literature and even in real life that people with horrible parents wonder how much of their parent dwells within. If your parent is the penultimate evil, that could be hard to take without sufficient training, and also confirmation of the prior good aspects of the person.

So part of what would make him ready is knowing the truth, but being able to handle it...Yoda pretty much confirms this when Luke challenges him...paraphrased Yoda-speak: you weren't ready to know, and you rushed off to face him too soon. That suggests to me they would have told him in their own time. Given how things played out, I still think "confront" and not "kill" was the intent.

Yoda's line is pretty nebulous anyway. "You must confront Vader." He doesn't say "kill". All he knows if they have to meet, and if Luke keeps to his training, some desirable outcome will emerge.

Eh, it always seemed pretty clear to me - well before '99 and the reveal that the order was broken and dysfunctional - that Kenobi and Yoda were honing Luke as a weapon to get the job done on Vader and Palpatine. Later information reinforced that point, but I thought it was pretty clear for decades now.

Yoda's line is pretty nebulous anyway. "You must confront Vader." He doesn't say "kill". All he knows if they have to meet, and if Luke keeps to his training, some desirable outcome will emerge.

Eh, it always seemed pretty clear to me - well before '99 and the reveal that the order was broken and dysfunctional - that Kenobi and Yoda were honing Luke as a weapon to get the job done on Vader and Palpatine. Later information reinforced that point, but I thought it was pretty clear for decades now.

Which is interesting as it always seemed to me like Yoda and Obi Wan were not in complete agreement on that, nor that Yoda wanted to see Vader dead. Confronted and stopped yes, but it never occurred to me that killing them was a desired option instead of a possible bad outcome. Beating them, stopping them, most likely battling them and bringing them to justice, all that. But never just assassinate them as this would never made sense for a peacekeeper or jedi holding up the ideals which Kenobi and Yoda taught Luke.

It is really interesting to see this divide in perception.

Guess our own context makes the viewing experience quite different.

It not like Windu wanted to wait for a trial either when he tried to assassinate the supreme chancellor of the republic based on his religion.

Not based on his "religion" - based on his feelings of guilt, because he couldn't bring himself to the decision to end the war on Geonosis. In his opinion, had he chosen to bomb the arena and sacrifice Anakin and Padmé, there'd never been a Clone War.

So, it's his guilt he is trying to kill, not only the Sith.

I always took it to be that Yoda didn't actually know how to stop Vader and the Emperor - or else he would have. Yoda said some very specific things about it, though;

1) You must confront Vader, then, only then, a Jedi will you be.

2) Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor.

3) Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father's fate, you will.

4) Strong the Force runs, in the Skywalker line. Hope, we can . . . Done, it is. Until the time is right, disappear we will.

It always struck me as though Yoda knew Obi-Wan and himself couldn't defeat the Emperor, but he knew one of Skywalker's children could, should they be so inclined to. This is supported by a scene in the RotS script that was truncated in the final movie where Qui-Gon talks to Yoda (Liam Neeson wasn't available for the scene). In it, Yoda says:

Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is ...

To which, Qui-Gon replies:

Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

It sets up the idea that Yoda is banking everything on the idea that should Luke be properly trained as a Jedi, then he will have the skills and training needed to figure out for himself how to stop the Emperor and Vader.

This also shows why Yoda is so against him rushing off to save Han and Leia - it wasn't about raw power or skill with a lightsaber - it was about his inability to rationally conclude the way a Jedi would. Yoda was afraid of Luke making poor choices, not necessarily just rushing off and getting killed. He knew Leia was a fallback, so Luke's death, while unfortunate, wasn't a deal-breaker. Instead, it was the worry that he would be naive enough to take Vader's offer and make everything worse.

I disagree that Yoda and Obi considered Leia a replacement: All bets were hinged on Luke otherwise they would have found reason to invite her. Personally I imagine it was both her anger and busy lifestyle (she was integral to the alliance) that prevented her from being trained. That and I feel she hated Vader as he blew up her home planet right before her very eyes meant that she wouldn't be able to face him with anything but anger, not a particularly ideal mindset to face the Sith with.

I guess Luke was more ideal due to his open mind in that he was free to learn (he was an ace, but there was no particular expectation on his shoulders) and he just couldn't hate Vader, no matter what he felt he was redeemable. Hence Leia couldn't replace Luke in that regard.

As for the rest? They intentionally keep vague. It's the stuff of horoscopes; keep the prophecies and objectives vague and you can always get a success no matter result.One can debate forever on what their intentions were; personally whether Vader died or lived was immaterial to them just as long as he was stopped. Once Vader was stopped the Emperor could be stopped, and that would be that. But naturally the Jedi knew the plot of the rest of the movie and could line up things like a game of tetris. XD

Just because she wasn't the primary choice doesn't mean they didn't consider her a replacement.

Yoda was pretty specific about it when Obi-Wan said, "That boy is our last hope" and Yoda replied, "No, there is another."

We now know he could have been talking about Ezra or Ahsoka, but when placed next to his words in RotJ, it's pretty clear the intention is Leia.

Until Luke failed, they couldn't invite her - how do you explain it? They couldn't explain why she was strong in the Force without explaining her lineage, which the exact opposite of what they wanted (as evidence by the numerous lies to Luke). It would complicate things far too much, so they took the best chance and played it first.

Only issue is that they never needed to explain why Luke was strong in the Force based on his lineage.

In fact, given the Jedi preponderance for celebacy, it seems that the only way one can be strong with the Force is apparently - essentially - random mutation (or the Force 'choosing' people, generally at birth, it seems). Assuming that the Force is choosing its vessels, then there's no reason why the child of a Force sensitive individual should be Force sensitive, either.

In any case, lineage is a moot point, though they would of course have to eventually explain Leia's connections to Anakin and Luke, in the event that Luke failed.

Just because she wasn't the primary choice doesn't mean they didn't consider her a replacement.

Yoda was pretty specific about it when Obi-Wan said, "That boy is our last hope" and Yoda replied, "No, there is another."

We now know he could have been talking about Ezra or Ahsoka, but when placed next to his words in RotJ, it's pretty clear the intention is Leia.

Until Luke failed, they couldn't invite her - how do you explain it? They couldn't explain why she was strong in the Force without explaining her lineage, which the exact opposite of what they wanted (as evidence by the numerous lies to Luke). It would complicate things far too much, so they took the best chance and played it first.

Ahhh yeah, I completely forgot about that exchange Obi-Yoda had. Must admit it must have been at least two years since I last seen EP-5; seems high time I do it again! XD

Though, it makes sense now that I remember that fact. I still believe there would be the same issues; unlike Luke she harboured a lot of reasons to despise vader.

Just because she wasn't the primary choice doesn't mean they didn't consider her a replacement.

Yoda was pretty specific about it when Obi-Wan said, "That boy is our last hope" and Yoda replied, "No, there is another."

We now know he could have been talking about Ezra or Ahsoka, but when placed next to his words in RotJ, it's pretty clear the intention is Leia.

Until Luke failed, they couldn't invite her - how do you explain it? They couldn't explain why she was strong in the Force without explaining her lineage, which the exact opposite of what they wanted (as evidence by the numerous lies to Luke). It would complicate things far too much, so they took the best chance and played it first.

Ahhh yeah, I completely forgot about that exchange Obi-Yoda had. Must admit it must have been at least two years since I last seen EP-5; seems high time I do it again! XD

Though, it makes sense now that I remember that fact. I still believe there would be the same issues; unlike Luke she harboured a lot of reasons to despise vader.

"He told me enough...he told me you killed him!"

Then his anger more or less dissolved as soon as Vader told him exactly who he was; replaced with confusion, horror, then afterwards it's replaced by calm acceptance, to the point where he calmly speaks to him through the force, almost as if the discovery had de-demonised the man he once knew as Vader and thus he took his first step in his redemption.

Though thankfuly for the rest of the galaxy Luke simply let himself fall instead of taking Vaders hand. Though that being said, I am immensely curious as to how Leia would have done as a Jedi; would she have made a more successful order?

Spoilers

I believe the Bloodline book covers this, though that being said I've not read it myself yet.

I know I'm a bit late, but I must give my two cents.

This whole debate about if a Jedi ever wins a fight without anger and aggression is silly. We see, through the movies that matter--not the prequels--that aggression and attack leads to failure. The first fight: Vader vs. Kenobi. Kenobi wins through calmness and self sacrifice. You may say he lost, but his sacrifice actually helped since Luke would never have left with Han and the others if Kenobi was still alive. The sacrifice allowed for the last hope of the Jedi to escape and succeed. Fight 2: Vader vs. Luke. This one is fairly simple. Luke loses because he was hasty and aggressive. Throughout the whole fight, he is the aggressor and Vader is the calm, collected one. Not to mention that Luke initiates the fight. Fight 3: Luke vs. Vader 2.0. Luke wins--ish. He physically beats Vader, but ultimately fails becaus he gave into the dark side. He gave into anger, and almost lost because of it. But he overcame, and decided he would never kill his father. This resulted in ultimate redemption for Vader.

All these fights show one very important thing: the aggressor and the one with anger ultimately fails. Because success or failure isn't just decided by who physically overpowered the other, but through the long term emotional and mental ramifications. That's why the originals are so good. All of this is thrown out in the prequels, of course.

Sorry for the incredibly lengthy post, but I needed to get this out of my system.

I know I'm a bit late, but I must give my two cents.

This whole debate about if a Jedi ever wins a fight without anger and aggression is silly. We see, through the movies that matter--not the prequels--that aggression and attack leads to failure. The first fight: Vader vs. Kenobi. Kenobi wins through calmness and self sacrifice. You may say he lost, but his sacrifice actually helped since Luke would never have left with Han and the others if Kenobi was still alive. The sacrifice allowed for the last hope of the Jedi to escape and succeed. Fight 2: Vader vs. Luke. This one is fairly simple. Luke loses because he was hasty and aggressive. Throughout the whole fight, he is the aggressor and Vader is the calm, collected one. Not to mention that Luke initiates the fight. Fight 3: Luke vs. Vader 2.0. Luke wins--ish. He physically beats Vader, but ultimately fails becaus he gave into the dark side. He gave into anger, and almost lost because of it. But he overcame, and decided he would never kill his father. This resulted in ultimate redemption for Vader.

All these fights show one very important thing: the aggressor and the one with anger ultimately fails. Because success or failure isn't just decided by who physically overpowered the other, but through the long term emotional and mental ramifications. That's why the originals are so good. All of this is thrown out in the prequels, of course.

Sorry for the incredibly lengthy post, but I needed to get this out of my system.

Except Vader fuels his power by his Anger and the reason Luke failed is because he couldn't overcome his fear. So Vader won the fight in Empire by using his emotions effectively while maintaining control while Luke couldn't control them at all.

Also Luke ONLY wins the duel in RotJ after Vader has provoked his anger. At this point, Luke doesn't let his emotions control him so he fuels his power with his anger and succeeds in the duel. Vader himself was conflicted and Luke felt it, which meant Vader wasn't in full control of his emotions during their duel. If Luke gave into this anger like you said, he'd have cut down Vader after the Emperor ordered him to "let the hate flow through him". Instead he used his emotion for a brief few moments and then controlled himself.

Basically, every duel in the movies is won by who can use their anger more effectively and who controls their emotions instead of letting their emotions control them. It was true in the OT, the PT and is also true in TFA.

Yoda doesn't often use his anger in battle which is why he never wins a single stinking duel in the films. Sure, he doesn't get hurt in saber combat but he also doesn't succeed in ending the fight. For all his skill with a saber, he's really only good at defense.

You are missing the point.

Vader vs. Luke:

Vader wins because he has a handle on his emotions. You say he used anger to fuel his power, but I don't see any evidence of that. Keep in mind who initiated the fight in the first place.

Vader vs. Luke 2.0:

Luke eventually wins, but not in the way you are thinking about winning. I cannot stress this enough: lightsaber duels are more about the internal conflict and emotion within the characters then flashy sword fights. So, admittedly, Luke overpowers Vader using anger, but he actually failed in his goal while doing so. His goal was to redeem Vader, you think wailing on him and cutting off his hand accomplishes that? You think winning the duel accomplishes that? No, but he got a handle on his anger and gave up, leading to success in his goal. Vader was redeemed.

The winner of the fight is not decided in the physical effects, but rather the mental and emotional effects. And throughout the (original) movies, we see that the one who better handle on their anger and emotions generally wins the fight. Maybe not in a physical sense, but in other ways.

Also, in TFA Rey beats Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren was CLEARLY the one who couldn't handle his anger in that fight.

I'm just very glad that this system allows for less of a penalty against force users who use the Force for attack, as opposed to earlier renditions where penalties were... a bit much.

RotJ. Luke Skywalker enters the lair of Jabba the Hutt. Two Gamorrean guards block his path. Luke Skywalker, Hero Jedi:

A) Uses his mastery of the Force to calm their minds and convince them that he belongs there?

B) Uses his diplomatic skills and talks to them in order to gain entrance?

C) Uses the Force only when he's attacked by them, and defends his right to trespass?

D) Force Chokes dem Fools!

In WEG's system, that is two separate uses of a Dark Side Power that leaves Luke 1/3rd of the way Fallen to the Dark Side... for a fairly frivolous "get past the guards at the gate" dilemma. And yes, he Force Chokes them, they both stumble backwards clutching at their necks. It's not like it was in defense either, these were two guards doing their job by non-violently blocking a questionable intruder's path. Perhaps Luke knew that Gamorreans only value strength, and in this FF system, decided that a couple of points of Conflict was worth getting by silently since he knew he wasn't getting past any other way, or at least not without a fight.

That's the scene that had me make some adjustments to their "automatic Dark Side Point" for using a power thing, and what makes me look on the Force as just a tool, for good or for evil, no different from how you decide to use a blaster. As someone has mentioned before, using a blaster in defense doesn't mean "threaten menacingly with it as others are firing at you." It means to blast fools attempting to harm you. So to summarize, I see the Force in the same way. Though, the Force, the Light Side and the Dark, does have a will. So, in my view, the Force is kind of like a sword, a magical talking sword, that attempts to convince you of what it thinks you should do, but in the end, it's only a tool that you decide to use for good or for evil.

You are missing the point.

Vader vs. Luke:

Vader wins because he has a handle on his emotions. You say he used anger to fuel his power, but I don't see any evidence of that. Keep in mind who initiated the fight in the first place.

Vader vs. Luke 2.0:

Luke eventually wins, but not in the way you are thinking about winning. I cannot stress this enough: lightsaber duels are more about the internal conflict and emotion within the characters then flashy sword fights. So, admittedly, Luke overpowers Vader using anger, but he actually failed in his goal while doing so. His goal was to redeem Vader, you think wailing on him and cutting off his hand accomplishes that? You think winning the duel accomplishes that? No, but he got a handle on his anger and gave up, leading to success in his goal. Vader was redeemed.

The winner of the fight is not decided in the physical effects, but rather the mental and emotional effects. And throughout the (original) movies, we see that the one who better handle on their anger and emotions generally wins the fight. Maybe not in a physical sense, but in other ways.

Okay, from what I remember of the old EU it explained he was pretty much angry all the time. Since the prequels, etc... he has been using anger to fuel his power. It's established. He spends his time in the OT choking people that are on the same side of the galactic conflict as him when they displease him. Anger is pretty much where he lives.

Luke 2.0: I'm talking about the saber duel itself whereas you are talking about the overall narrative. In the duel, Luke wins when he uses his emotions to his benefit; the difference between now and in Empire is that Luke knows when to control himself. Vader loses the duel because he is at a conflict internally and his emotions are in flux. Luke pleaded with him to turn back from his evil ways. Vader knows one of them isn't walking out alive... Palpatine just told them that he wants Luke to kill Vader and take his place. His master is betraying him and his son is trying to redeem him. He loses his control on his anger and starts to feel other emotions that he cannot seem to handle. He loses because he doesn't effectively use his emotions. So yeah, I agree that it's about internal conflict but I also believe very strongly that emotion plays a huge part in actually winning a lightsaber duel.

In regards to TFA: Kylo has been shot by a blast that for everyone else, it has not only tossed back several feet but has killed them in a single hit. He's also stressed out because his plans aren't going well. Also, he just committed murder on someone he knows and it's probably messing with his head slightly. His superweapon is about to blow up, he hasn't found Luke Skywalker yet... nothing is going his way in this story. He seems to not have a good handle on his emotions on a regular basis. Also, he just took a couple wounds mid-fight with Finn.

Conversely, Rey calms herself mid-fight. This of course lets her tap into the force for the first time in combat but she shows some very angry moments just after that and it seemed she wasn't just trying to end the fight but to hurt him as well.

So yeah, I agree it's about when one can master their emotions rather than letting their emotions master them but I also believe mastering their emotions means that they are free to use said emotion to their benefit as shown in the films when every Jedi character decides to go on the attack when they are feeling anger and they win a lightsaber duel. Obi-Wan Vs Darth Maul (TPM), Dooku Vs Anakin (AotC), Anakin Vs Dooku (RotS), Obi-Wan Vs Anakin (RotS), Vader Vs Luke (ESB), Luke Vs Vader (RotJ), Rey Vs Kylo (TFA). Every lightsaber duel won is due to the person who masters their emotions rather than letting their emotions master them and uses their anger to their benefit rather than letting their anger consume them.