To be fair, in the Obi-Wan versus Maul fight, Maul won because Obi-Wan couldn't get a handle on his emotions, and then Obi-wan cheated and killed Maul anyway ....

Just sayin'.

To be fair, in the Obi-Wan versus Maul fight, Maul won because Obi-Wan couldn't get a handle on his emotions, and then Obi-wan cheated and killed Maul anyway ....

Just sayin'.

There is no such thing as cheating when you're already a wizard-monk-sorceror-knight with the most powerful of magic swords.

To be fair, in the Obi-Wan versus Maul fight, Maul won because Obi-Wan couldn't get a handle on his emotions, and then Obi-wan cheated and killed Maul anyway ....

Just sayin'.

There is no such thing as cheating when you're already a wizard-monk-sorceror-knight with the most powerful of magic swords.

It was not cheating anyway as Maul did not die. It was just a fleshwound ^-^

You are missing the point.

Vader vs. Luke:

Vader wins because he has a handle on his emotions. You say he used anger to fuel his power, but I don't see any evidence of that. Keep in mind who initiated the fight in the first place.

Vader vs. Luke 2.0:

Luke eventually wins, but not in the way you are thinking about winning. I cannot stress this enough: lightsaber duels are more about the internal conflict and emotion within the characters then flashy sword fights. So, admittedly, Luke overpowers Vader using anger, but he actually failed in his goal while doing so. His goal was to redeem Vader, you think wailing on him and cutting off his hand accomplishes that? You think winning the duel accomplishes that? No, but he got a handle on his anger and gave up, leading to success in his goal. Vader was redeemed.

The winner of the fight is not decided in the physical effects, but rather the mental and emotional effects. And throughout the (original) movies, we see that the one who better handle on their anger and emotions generally wins the fight. Maybe not in a physical sense, but in other ways.

Okay, from what I remember of the old EU it explained he was pretty much angry all the time. Since the prequels, etc... he has been using anger to fuel his power. It's established. He spends his time in the OT choking people that are on the same side of the galactic conflict as him when they displease him. Anger is pretty much where he lives.

Luke 2.0: I'm talking about the saber duel itself whereas you are talking about the overall narrative. In the duel, Luke wins when he uses his emotions to his benefit; the difference between now and in Empire is that Luke knows when to control himself. Vader loses the duel because he is at a conflict internally and his emotions are in flux. Luke pleaded with him to turn back from his evil ways. Vader knows one of them isn't walking out alive... Palpatine just told them that he wants Luke to kill Vader and take his place. His master is betraying him and his son is trying to redeem him. He loses his control on his anger and starts to feel other emotions that he cannot seem to handle. He loses because he doesn't effectively use his emotions. So yeah, I agree that it's about internal conflict but I also believe very strongly that emotion plays a huge part in actually winning a lightsaber duel.

In regards to TFA: Kylo has been shot by a blast that for everyone else, it has not only tossed back several feet but has killed them in a single hit. He's also stressed out because his plans aren't going well. Also, he just committed murder on someone he knows and it's probably messing with his head slightly. His superweapon is about to blow up, he hasn't found Luke Skywalker yet... nothing is going his way in this story. He seems to not have a good handle on his emotions on a regular basis. Also, he just took a couple wounds mid-fight with Finn.

Conversely, Rey calms herself mid-fight. This of course lets her tap into the force for the first time in combat but she shows some very angry moments just after that and it seemed she wasn't just trying to end the fight but to hurt him as well.

So yeah, I agree it's about when one can master their emotions rather than letting their emotions master them but I also believe mastering their emotions means that they are free to use said emotion to their benefit as shown in the films when every Jedi character decides to go on the attack when they are feeling anger and they win a lightsaber duel. Obi-Wan Vs Darth Maul (TPM), Dooku Vs Anakin (AotC), Anakin Vs Dooku (RotS), Obi-Wan Vs Anakin (RotS), Vader Vs Luke (ESB), Luke Vs Vader (RotJ), Rey Vs Kylo (TFA). Every lightsaber duel won is due to the person who masters their emotions rather than letting their emotions master them and uses their anger to their benefit rather than letting their anger consume them.

Luke doesn't 'win' the lightsaber duel until he gives into his anger because he's trying not to fight at all. When he is killing off the entirety of Jabba's clan he is calm, not angry, and is doing what is necessary. Luke almost falls to the Dark Side when he fights Vader in RotJ, he loses control and is trying not to fight because he knows this, hence he only fights when he is angry and holds back when he regains control. He wasn't able to fight without anger like he did at Jabba's palace and so is avoiding it.

What I am essentially trying to say is, he ONLY fights when he is angry with Vader because all other times he refuses to fight at all, and so we cannot say the anger enabled him to win since all other times he doesn't even have his lightsaber on.

You are missing the point.

Vader vs. Luke:

Vader wins because he has a handle on his emotions. You say he used anger to fuel his power, but I don't see any evidence of that. Keep in mind who initiated the fight in the first place.

Vader vs. Luke 2.0:

Luke eventually wins, but not in the way you are thinking about winning. I cannot stress this enough: lightsaber duels are more about the internal conflict and emotion within the characters then flashy sword fights. So, admittedly, Luke overpowers Vader using anger, but he actually failed in his goal while doing so. His goal was to redeem Vader, you think wailing on him and cutting off his hand accomplishes that? You think winning the duel accomplishes that? No, but he got a handle on his anger and gave up, leading to success in his goal. Vader was redeemed.

The winner of the fight is not decided in the physical effects, but rather the mental and emotional effects. And throughout the (original) movies, we see that the one who better handle on their anger and emotions generally wins the fight. Maybe not in a physical sense, but in other ways.

Okay, from what I remember of the old EU it explained he was pretty much angry all the time. Since the prequels, etc... he has been using anger to fuel his power. It's established. He spends his time in the OT choking people that are on the same side of the galactic conflict as him when they displease him. Anger is pretty much where he lives.

Luke 2.0: I'm talking about the saber duel itself whereas you are talking about the overall narrative. In the duel, Luke wins when he uses his emotions to his benefit; the difference between now and in Empire is that Luke knows when to control himself. Vader loses the duel because he is at a conflict internally and his emotions are in flux. Luke pleaded with him to turn back from his evil ways. Vader knows one of them isn't walking out alive... Palpatine just told them that he wants Luke to kill Vader and take his place. His master is betraying him and his son is trying to redeem him. He loses his control on his anger and starts to feel other emotions that he cannot seem to handle. He loses because he doesn't effectively use his emotions. So yeah, I agree that it's about internal conflict but I also believe very strongly that emotion plays a huge part in actually winning a lightsaber duel.

In regards to TFA: Kylo has been shot by a blast that for everyone else, it has not only tossed back several feet but has killed them in a single hit. He's also stressed out because his plans aren't going well. Also, he just committed murder on someone he knows and it's probably messing with his head slightly. His superweapon is about to blow up, he hasn't found Luke Skywalker yet... nothing is going his way in this story. He seems to not have a good handle on his emotions on a regular basis. Also, he just took a couple wounds mid-fight with Finn.

Conversely, Rey calms herself mid-fight. This of course lets her tap into the force for the first time in combat but she shows some very angry moments just after that and it seemed she wasn't just trying to end the fight but to hurt him as well.

So yeah, I agree it's about when one can master their emotions rather than letting their emotions master them but I also believe mastering their emotions means that they are free to use said emotion to their benefit as shown in the films when every Jedi character decides to go on the attack when they are feeling anger and they win a lightsaber duel. Obi-Wan Vs Darth Maul (TPM), Dooku Vs Anakin (AotC), Anakin Vs Dooku (RotS), Obi-Wan Vs Anakin (RotS), Vader Vs Luke (ESB), Luke Vs Vader (RotJ), Rey Vs Kylo (TFA). Every lightsaber duel won is due to the person who masters their emotions rather than letting their emotions master them and uses their anger to their benefit rather than letting their anger consume them.

Luke doesn't 'win' the lightsaber duel until he gives into his anger because he's trying not to fight at all. When he is killing off the entirety of Jabba's clan he is calm, not angry, and is doing what is necessary. Luke almost falls to the Dark Side when he fights Vader in RotJ, he loses control and is trying not to fight because he knows this, hence he only fights when he is angry and holds back when he regains control. He wasn't able to fight without anger like he did at Jabba's palace and so is avoiding it.

What I am essentially trying to say is, he ONLY fights when he is angry with Vader because all other times he refuses to fight at all, and so we cannot say the anger enabled him to win since all other times he doesn't even have his lightsaber on.

Luke in fact, attacked first in the battle with Vader... and he was trying to hit the Emperor. He was good and fine fighting at first. He only decided not to fight so he could have time appealing to Vader. Instead, Vader taunted him and he attacked once more.

He faught at Jabbas and didn't seem particularly angry, sure but I am referring, as I always have been, to lightsaber duels. Taking out an unnamed minon is nothing. Duels require a lot more from the participants and so far in every film, Jedi win by using their anger. Emotion is as essential to their power as it is to the Sith, unlike the contradictory teachings of the Old Jedi Order.

You are missing the point.

Vader vs. Luke:

Vader wins because he has a handle on his emotions. You say he used anger to fuel his power, but I don't see any evidence of that. Keep in mind who initiated the fight in the first place.

Vader vs. Luke 2.0:

Luke eventually wins, but not in the way you are thinking about winning. I cannot stress this enough: lightsaber duels are more about the internal conflict and emotion within the characters then flashy sword fights. So, admittedly, Luke overpowers Vader using anger, but he actually failed in his goal while doing so. His goal was to redeem Vader, you think wailing on him and cutting off his hand accomplishes that? You think winning the duel accomplishes that? No, but he got a handle on his anger and gave up, leading to success in his goal. Vader was redeemed.

The winner of the fight is not decided in the physical effects, but rather the mental and emotional effects. And throughout the (original) movies, we see that the one who better handle on their anger and emotions generally wins the fight. Maybe not in a physical sense, but in other ways.

Okay, from what I remember of the old EU it explained he was pretty much angry all the time. Since the prequels, etc... he has been using anger to fuel his power. It's established. He spends his time in the OT choking people that are on the same side of the galactic conflict as him when they displease him. Anger is pretty much where he lives.

Luke 2.0: I'm talking about the saber duel itself whereas you are talking about the overall narrative. In the duel, Luke wins when he uses his emotions to his benefit; the difference between now and in Empire is that Luke knows when to control himself. Vader loses the duel because he is at a conflict internally and his emotions are in flux. Luke pleaded with him to turn back from his evil ways. Vader knows one of them isn't walking out alive... Palpatine just told them that he wants Luke to kill Vader and take his place. His master is betraying him and his son is trying to redeem him. He loses his control on his anger and starts to feel other emotions that he cannot seem to handle. He loses because he doesn't effectively use his emotions. So yeah, I agree that it's about internal conflict but I also believe very strongly that emotion plays a huge part in actually winning a lightsaber duel.

In regards to TFA: Kylo has been shot by a blast that for everyone else, it has not only tossed back several feet but has killed them in a single hit. He's also stressed out because his plans aren't going well. Also, he just committed murder on someone he knows and it's probably messing with his head slightly. His superweapon is about to blow up, he hasn't found Luke Skywalker yet... nothing is going his way in this story. He seems to not have a good handle on his emotions on a regular basis. Also, he just took a couple wounds mid-fight with Finn.

Conversely, Rey calms herself mid-fight. This of course lets her tap into the force for the first time in combat but she shows some very angry moments just after that and it seemed she wasn't just trying to end the fight but to hurt him as well.

So yeah, I agree it's about when one can master their emotions rather than letting their emotions master them but I also believe mastering their emotions means that they are free to use said emotion to their benefit as shown in the films when every Jedi character decides to go on the attack when they are feeling anger and they win a lightsaber duel. Obi-Wan Vs Darth Maul (TPM), Dooku Vs Anakin (AotC), Anakin Vs Dooku (RotS), Obi-Wan Vs Anakin (RotS), Vader Vs Luke (ESB), Luke Vs Vader (RotJ), Rey Vs Kylo (TFA). Every lightsaber duel won is due to the person who masters their emotions rather than letting their emotions master them and uses their anger to their benefit rather than letting their anger consume them.

Luke doesn't 'win' the lightsaber duel until he gives into his anger because he's trying not to fight at all. When he is killing off the entirety of Jabba's clan he is calm, not angry, and is doing what is necessary. Luke almost falls to the Dark Side when he fights Vader in RotJ, he loses control and is trying not to fight because he knows this, hence he only fights when he is angry and holds back when he regains control. He wasn't able to fight without anger like he did at Jabba's palace and so is avoiding it.

What I am essentially trying to say is, he ONLY fights when he is angry with Vader because all other times he refuses to fight at all, and so we cannot say the anger enabled him to win since all other times he doesn't even have his lightsaber on.

Luke in fact, attacked first in the battle with Vader... and he was trying to hit the Emperor. He was good and fine fighting at first. He only decided not to fight so he could have time appealing to Vader. Instead, Vader taunted him and he attacked once more.

He faught at Jabbas and didn't seem particularly angry, sure but I am referring, as I always have been, to lightsaber duels. Taking out an unnamed minon is nothing. Duels require a lot more from the participants and so far in every film, Jedi win by using their anger. Emotion is as essential to their power as it is to the Sith, unlike the contradictory teachings of the Old Jedi Order.

Yes, he attacks first because he lost control due to his anger. The Emperor is constantly poking him to get him to do precisely that, and he only fights at that point when he loses control. That is the point I am making: he only 'wins' while being angry because all other times he is refusing to fight at all. Therefore, you cannot say that being angry was the only reason he was able to defeat Vader, because we do not see him fight Vader when he is not angry. You are making a claim that Luke needed anger to win the duel, but we do not know that is the case since he wasn't trying to fight at all when he had control of his emotions because he knew he could not fight Vader in his current angry state and not risk falling to the Dark Side. In fact, RotJ shows that Jedi could not fight while angry because they risked falling, as Luke almost does until he throws his lightsaber away.

The prequels seem to then ignore this, and is one of the criticisms of them but I am not discussing them, I am merely discussing Luke's situation, and his is that he only fights when angry in his duel, so we do not know whether his anger increased his capability or not.

Going by your statements, he did need his anger to beat Vader in the duel because as you said, he only participated in the duel when he was angry. Therefore he needed anger to motivate him. He had to deal with Vader in some way because Vader would prevent him from dealing with Palpatine.

Going by your statements, he did need his anger to beat Vader in the duel because as you said, he only participated in the duel when he was angry. Therefore he needed anger to motivate him. He had to deal with Vader in some way because Vader would prevent him from dealing with Palpatine.

I only hear "Technically, I am a nitpicking nerd who ignorantly choose to ignore the point to look like brainy smurf."

But maybe that's just me and something got lost in translation.

Going by your statements, he did need his anger to beat Vader in the duel because as you said, he only participated in the duel when he was angry. Therefore he needed anger to motivate him. He had to deal with Vader in some way because Vader would prevent him from dealing with Palpatine.

I only hear "Technically, I am a nitpicking nerd who ignorantly choose to ignore the point to look like brainy smurf."

But maybe that's just me and something got lost in translation.

The discussion does not have to dissolve into personal attacks. Please refrain from doing that.

Though I am speaking of my view on it a lot, I do want to hear other's opinions on the matter. If the thread gets locked due to things getting out of hand, it will kill the conversation.

Going by your statements, he did need his anger to beat Vader in the duel because as you said, he only participated in the duel when he was angry. Therefore he needed anger to motivate him. He had to deal with Vader in some way because Vader would prevent him from dealing with Palpatine.

I only hear "Technically, I am a nitpicking nerd who ignorantly choose to ignore the point to look like brainy smurf."

But maybe that's just me and something got lost in translation.

The discussion does not have to dissolve into personal attacks. Please refrain from doing that.

Though I am speaking of my view on it a lot, I do want to hear other's opinions on the matter. If the thread gets locked due to things getting out of hand, it will kill the conversation.

Something definitely got lost in translation here. That was not meant as personal attack, but as sassy remark about the quality of the quoted post which consisted basically of a nitpick which indeed ignored completely the point.

Going by your statements, he did need his anger to beat Vader in the duel because as you said, he only participated in the duel when he was angry. Therefore he needed anger to motivate him. He had to deal with Vader in some way because Vader would prevent him from dealing with Palpatine.

I only hear "Technically, I am a nitpicking nerd who ignorantly choose to ignore the point to look like brainy smurf." But maybe that's just me and something got lost in translation.

The discussion does not have to dissolve into personal attacks. Please refrain from doing that. Though I am speaking of my view on it a lot, I do want to hear other's opinions on the matter. If the thread gets locked due to things getting out of hand, it will kill the conversation.

Something definitely got lost in translation here. That was not meant as personal attack, but as sassy remark about the quality of the quoted post which consisted basically of a nitpick which indeed ignored completely the point.

This entire conversation about whether anger is essential to jedi winning duels started with a nitpick and everything after that I said is based on interpretations of internal thoughts and feelings that characters didn't outwardly express within the canon and the physical look of characters when dueling. So if you want to nitpick my nitpicks there's a lot more than just what I said last about it.

In my point of view, anger or otherwise negative emotion is what led to the majority of if not all of the duel wins in the canon. The only duel I can think of in which the winner wasn't emotionally distraught is Kanan at the end of Rebels season 1.

Needed? No.

Used? Certainly.

In my point of view, anger or otherwise negative emotion is what led to the majority of if not all of the duel wins in the canon. The only duel I can think of in which the winner wasn't emotionally distraught is Kanan at the end of Rebels season 1.

Yoda vs Doku EP 2

Yoda vs Palpatine (admittedly a fight within the minds of those)

Kenobi in his final battle against Grievous (He might have been a little to happy about winning though ;-))

Kenobi & Gallia vs Maul & Savage (You might give this one to Hondo ;-))

Even the Clone Troopers do it against General Krell

And naturally the mentioned counter example: "Your Rage has disbalanced you, this is clearly not the jedi way" Obi-Wan losing clearly based on his emotions.

Furthermore someone might use Windu's mastery of Vaapad as example of how mastered emotions lead to victory in combat, he was afterall able to challenge and potentially even beat Palpatine in lightsaber combat.

Not the jedi way imho sums is very good up, the dark side can be a powerful ally, though fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering was always true for the darkside users. Their falls to the darkside never ended well for them and brought great suffering over themselves and others. I can not think of a single darkside users who ever achieved his own goals this way, they all come usually with good reasons and never achieve them. Trapped by the own emotions, their fall to the darkside becoming the reason for their own fall.

From Bane to Palpatine, I don't think we had any exceptions really.

Are the examples supposed to be of lightsaber duels that were won without negative emotion? Because yoda never won a duel in the movies, he merely survived them without a scratch. They always ended short of someone winning the duel (dooku putting anakin and obi-wan in danger, palpatine switching it up and throwing objects and lightning at yoda).

Are the examples supposed to be of lightsaber duels that were won without negative emotion? Because yoda never won a duel in the movies, he merely survived them without a scratch. They always ended short of someone winning the duel (dooku putting anakin and obi-wan in danger, palpatine switching it up and throwing objects and lightning at yoda).

Feel free to click the links

It's a matter of interpretation on how you define "win" in the context of the duels. Most often, the two duelists did not have matching victory conditions.

Episode 4 resolved rather simply; one could argue that Vader wasn't taking it all that seriously but that could be equally argued due to technology restrictions back then meant that the fight... well was rather stiff despite the atmosphere. That fight only really ended when Obi-Wan decided to sacrifice himself so Luke would leave immediately, so it really doesn't say much for Obi-Wan's abilities, aside from the fact that he was clearly well trained enough to stand against Vader as a peer.

Which is why I'm not a fan of "Vader can kill small armies solo" that I sometimes see. I kind of liked the time where a Jedi was dangerous to a number of people and had powers that made them superior, yet was the whole empire that crushed them and forced a new perspective to rise.

Which is why I'm not a fan of "Vader can kill small armies solo" that I sometimes see. I kind of liked the time where a Jedi was dangerous to a number of people and had powers that made them superior, yet was the whole empire that crushed them and forced a new perspective to rise.

Hey, Mace Windu states that he alone destroyed over 100,000 battle droids during the clone wars. I would not call this a small army ^-^

Which is why I'm not a fan of "Vader can kill small armies solo" that I sometimes see. I kind of liked the time where a Jedi was dangerous to a number of people and had powers that made them superior, yet was the whole empire that crushed them and forced a new perspective to rise.

Hey, Mace Windu states that he alone destroyed over 100,000 battle droids during the clone wars. I would not call this a small army ^-^

Really? Isn't that from the non-canon Clone Wars cartoon?

Which is why I'm not a fan of "Vader can kill small armies solo" that I sometimes see. I kind of liked the time where a Jedi was dangerous to a number of people and had powers that made them superior, yet was the whole empire that crushed them and forced a new perspective to rise.

Hey, Mace Windu states that he alone destroyed over 100,000 battle droids during the clone wars. I would not call this a small army ^-^

...after the mainframe computer was shut down... they just stood there, inert. Windu omitted that fact to make him look more bad ass, but Yoda knew the truth

Which is why I'm not a fan of "Vader can kill small armies solo" that I sometimes see. I kind of liked the time where a Jedi was dangerous to a number of people and had powers that made them superior, yet was the whole empire that crushed them and forced a new perspective to rise.

Hey, Mace Windu states that he alone destroyed over 100,000 battle droids during the clone wars. I would not call this a small army ^-^

Really? Isn't that from the non-canon Clone Wars cartoon?

It is from the canon the clone wars cartoon, one of the legacy episodes to be exact, never fully finished, but still releases for the fans and still canon. They really, really wanted to publish their stories into canon, arranged for the rest of the missing eps to be released as comics, books or as part of rebels as well.

I don't see the purpose of this debate anymore.

The point Yoda makes in the indisputable best Star Wars movie is that a Jedi should be above using the dark side and negative emotions, and that going somewhere purely to pick a fight is a bad idea. This is reinforced through Obi-Wan choosing self sacrifice over trying to win the physical duel, Luke going to fight Vader, not in self defense but instead looking for a fight, and Luke giving up in order to bring Vader to the good side. True, we often see people using anger win the physical aspects of a duel, but they also lose in the overall scope of things. And that is what matters. Winning in the physical sense isn't most important. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. I think fans should look to the explicit tones and messages of a film rather than nitpicking the small details.

I have respect for fellow Star Wara fans who feel differently, but I also would encourage them to look to what a movie is saying overall and not not get involved in the nitty-gritties. Personally, I think nitpicking is killing the film experience, and I hope others see this as well.

I don't see the purpose of this debate anymore.

The point Yoda makes in the indisputable best Star Wars movie is that a Jedi should be above using the dark side and negative emotions, and that going somewhere purely to pick a fight is a bad idea. This is reinforced through Obi-Wan choosing self sacrifice over trying to win the physical duel, Luke going to fight Vader, not in self defense but instead looking for a fight, and Luke giving up in order to bring Vader to the good side. True, we often see people using anger win the physical aspects of a duel, but they also lose in the overall scope of things. And that is what matters. Winning in the physical sense isn't most important. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. I think fans should look to the explicit tones and messages of a film rather than nitpicking the small details.

I have respect for fellow Star Wara fans who feel differently, but I also would encourage them to look to what a movie is saying overall and not not get involved in the nitty-gritties. Personally, I think nitpicking is killing the film experience, and I hope others see this as well.

I think this is right on top of things and brings the view on dark and light side right on point. Throughout basically all of canon, expanded universe, etc there were many fallen force wielders who decided to use the darkside for a good cause, and none of them good achieve his goals and on the grand scheme of things they became tragic persons when they did fall to the darkside. The same can not be said about those who achieved balance between their dark and light side, but that was not the jedi way.