Female friendly..not.

By Artuard, in Dark Heresy General Discussion

Posted at

Hi guys,

My group is trying to make this system/world interesting to our GM's wife who is also one of the PC's. She is really into high fantasy systems but we all got tired of those and ended playing DH2. We all love it, except her. I was wondering if you would have any tips both for the GM or players to make her more into this game?

Anything could help guys..

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Holy teaser topic, Batman!

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She could play a fuedal worlder from a world very much like those high fantasy ones she enjoys. And it still fits the setting! Ask her if she'd be interested in having one of those type of characters being introduced to the wider, more corrupt and stagnant Imperium be interesting to play.

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So, my question is, how is it not female-friendly? I can't remember any misogynistic sections of the game off the top of my head; a number of important personages and NPCs are female...

If you meant how to get a fantasy person into sci-fi, the trick is to play up the Fantasy. Toss them the Feudal World and Frontier World start-ups, write up some Talents to help (maybe create some stuff to improve bows or something), etc.

Edited by MijRai
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The GM/Husband should talk to her?

Instead of trying to guess why she doesn't like to play DH2 she might actually tell you, and then you can react accordingly if you want to.

Edited by Alox
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We know exactly why she doesn't like to play in this setting - that's not my question at all? See perceives this system as Skulls, demons, heresy, 3 meter tall soldiers, rage, regression, aggression, doom and gloom. She already rolled a quite cool ( imho ) desperado. Also I've never said this setting or sections hate women. hard to explain really why its not that female friendly ;-)

So anyway, we're looking for maybe some art ( Heroines etc ) - I was struggling to find this online to be honest. Maybe some ways to engage her story wise ( we're playing the premade adventures but I'm sure our GM would appreciate some advice ).

Stuff like that - maybe some of you guys have some girls playing with you that have some advice

Also I like the idea to tweak her character to more of a feudal one but I think her issue is mainly with the Gothic SF world :-/

Edited by Artuard
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If you were playing Deathwatch, I might see where it can get hard; canonically, there are no female Space Marines, nor affiliated females who work with them, and there are few good female Space Marine-analogues. You can build a Sister of Battle, or possibly an Inquisitor, who will have much of the same gear, but she'll still often get crumped in a fight, where the Astartes have numerous extra bits to try and prevent that, and she'll leave them in the dust on skills, since that's likely what one will buy, with the equivalated XP they have locked up in their organs, solo/squad modes, etc. Deathwatch gave us Space Marines, but it never really made other things fit in with them; in 40k, nothing really does.

I haven't played DH2, but I don't see, too much, where it would be anti-female. Parts of the Imperium, maybe whole planets, even, could be sexist, but plenty of other parts won't be, and once you realize that the Imperium doesn't see people as individual men, and/or women, but faceless masses of a resource, gender becomes very much not important. The minis line might be made by some people who are sexist, or have been, and some of the lines hearken back to days where women fighters were weird, but a lot of it is purely cost, when it comes to making their lines. They either need to double the number of molds (there were 4 poses? Now we need four more, for eight total :o ), and you'll get very few of any one in a single box, or just crank out what they do, an figure their overwhelming majority of buyers are guys who want male action heroes, and scantily-clad babes, which they've never been particularly good at making. InDH2, though, it's not really a problem. I'm guessing she doesn't care for 40k, which isn't a huge surprise, to me. I've wanted to run Rogue Trader, and even with the freedom of dickery, in that game, I've never been able to convince any of them, male, or female, to want to get invested in the "no victory in sight, surrounded on all sides, no allies possible, ridiculous religious overtones game, based on a game made to separate artists and tacticians from their money. Thus, I won't sit here and try to suggest how to get her to like 40k, if that is the problem, as I haven't figured out how to, either, and I rather like the setting. My best/worst idea: decide what the fallout will be if she, maybe, doesn't play. Will she be pissed? Will she make everyone else miserable? This might happen if she's forced to play, too, but sometimes we just have to accept that we don't want to play, we're not going to play, and then accept that other people WILL play, despite us. My first game of D&D, as a GM, my best friend's future wife was always around, and she didn't like the role-playing stuff. For a while, she insisted on sitting in, but couldn't stop being a bother, and so I sent her away, risking alienating him. Got into a fight, but it worked out, in the end. Turned out to be one of the best things I ever GMed, and she found stuff to do elsewhere. Even gave them that little time apart to make getting back together better. My weak point, sit down, and see if there is stuff about the setting that can sway her, and, if not, maybe just accept, even push, that she just won't play. Of course, I'm hoping you manage to persuade her, it's a fun setting, if you like that sort of thing, and I wish you the best of luck, and the least collateral damage. Ave Imperator!

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I need a bit more context. My fiancé is one of my PCs and a fellow wargamer. She much prefers fantasy over sci fi but 40k fulfills her need for dudes in armour and swords so gets on fine with the 40k setting.

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So anyway, we're look for maybe some art ( Heroines etc ) - I was struggling to find this online to be honest.

Easy - my wife's PC , Adeptus Mechanicus Factor of the Lathes and Acuitor Mech-Assasin (DH1)

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See perceives this system as Skulls, demons, heresy, 3 meter tall soldiers, rage, regression, aggression, doom and gloom.

Well...it kinda is. If she doesn't like those themes, then the 40k setting probably isn't for her. Quite what it's got to do with being a woman, I don't know; the women in 40k are just as dark, aggressive and gloomy as the men.

Pointing her in the direction of the Sisters of Battle, the Escher Gang in Necromunda (the Kal Jericho comics have some great examples), the Assassinorium and the Eldar might help. I'm sure there's some other material I'm not aware of (I've read very few 40k novels, for example) that might also help. Just giving her a feel for where and how women fit into the setting (i.e. the exact same places as the men, except with better hair, as a rule) might help.

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40k is a masculine setting so I'm not really surprised the OP is having this problem. I can tell you, OP, that you came to the wrong place to get a good answer, as evidenced by the largely tone-deaf responses thus far.

Two of these are art of women for men and exactly the wrong thing to send someone trying to draw women into the setting. I'll let you guess which. (and none of them are particularly well drawn but that's beside the point)

Or just http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/?q=warhammer - It requires some scrolling, but it's easy

You're not helping:

We know exactly why she doesn't like to play in this setting - that's not my question at all? See perceives this system as Skulls, demons, heresy, 3 meter tall soldiers, rage, regression, aggression, doom and gloom.

Anyway Artuard, besides the very sensible advice of asking her what you can do to get her invested in the game, my advice is to play the game closer to high fantasy. In high fantasy the players are the good guys fighting against the bad guys and everything is black and white. Dark Heresy is very much a game of grey areas and choosing the lesser evil and so on, but it doesn't need to be.

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Two of these are art of women for men and exactly the wrong thing to send someone trying to draw women into the setting. I'll let you guess which. (and none of them are particularly well drawn but that's beside the

A few points

1. I refrained from posting a few more images from my female player, which I'm assured your gender role confused mind would probably reject based on some odd form of male feminism.

2. Whether you think the art is poor or not, your opinion on the matter was neither asked for nor productive. Please just stop breathing.

3. I'm pretty sure your an overly opinionated moron that exists simply to sap any form of optimism or joy from anyone who enjoys the game. Please don't directly conversation with me on these boards or quote me again, and I'll be sure to return the favor.

Thank you for your understanding.

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1. I refrained from posting a few more images from my female player, which I'm assured your gender role confused mind would probably reject based on some odd form of male feminism.

Not really sure what the point is here (other than to take a shot at me) but I'd happily take a look.

2. Whether you think the art is poor or not, your opinion on the matter was neither asked for nor productive.

Actually it was both. The OP posted about the problem of women in gaming having a real hard time finding images that represent them rather than objectify them and you posted 4 images with no other comment, half of which exemplify the problem the OP was asking about. Letting that pass un-commented-on would have given the OP that that kind of response is what passes for acceptable.

Please just stop breathing.

Get bent.

3. I'm pretty sure your an overly opinionated moron that exists simply to sap any form of optimism or joy from anyone who enjoys the game. Please don't directly conversation with me on these boards or quote me again, and I'll be sure to return the favor.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. All I did was lament the bad posts in this thread and give the OP some good advice. I didn't attack anyone for enjoying the game.

And it's "you're".

Thank you for your understanding.

Please dispense with the false courtesy.

edit: hahaha holy crap man I just saw your post in the fan art forum. You really don't get the problem people have with depictions of women in art in gaming, do you?

Edited by cps
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Hmm, not sure I agree with cps here (a rare thing), I imagine it's probably because we've had different experiences in this regard? I guess there is the stereotype that females generally prefer high fantasy but to be honest, in an age where we're breaking down stereotypes where we can, I've met a fair few females who enjoy the 40k setting. Obviously this is nowhere near to be being anywhere near equal to the number of males I know who enjoy the setting but my point is, it's not as rare as it once was.

I guess what I'm saying is we need to know more about the GM's wife and her tastes. Otherwise we're making assumptions based on her gender...isn't that what we're trying to avoid? ;)

Edit: let's also get back to the topic at hand and stop arguing on the Internet. If you've met each other as strangers at a pub and found out you both play Dark Heresy, you'd probably buy each other a beer :)

Edited by Gregor Eisenhorn
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Even stranger I find myself agreeing with CPS for a change of pace. Some of the art is poor like an actively exposed bosom. However I will state that the title of the thread is very misleading and there just isn't anything to go off of in terms of giving further advice to the person involved.

Such as, what exactly about the setting isn't liked, yes it's an overly masculine toned setting, but is relatively egalitarian save a few things like boob armor or scantily clad assassins.

If she likes high fantasy, common enough, then why not move to WHFRP that way you can have both? Grimdarkness in the Fantasy of the Old World?

However Cog you way over reacted, never a reason to go off the end like that and want someone's death just because they have a different opinion of you. Secondarily CPS was the jab at the fan art post really necessary?

(I've been gone a while, miss much else?)

Posted at

We know exactly why she doesn't like to play in this setting - that's not my question at all? See perceives this system as Skulls, demons, heresy, 3 meter tall soldiers, rage, regression, aggression, doom and gloom. She already rolled a quite cool ( imho ) desperado. Also I've never said this setting or sections hate women. hard to explain really why its not that female friendly ;-)

So anyway, we're looking maybe for some art ( Heroines etc ) - I was struggling to find this online to be honest. Maybe some ways to engage her story wise ( we're playing the premade adventures but I'm sure our GM would appreciate some advice ).

Stuff like that - maybe some of you guys have some girls playing with you that have some advice

Also I like the idea to tweak her character to more of a feudal one but I think her issue is mainly with the Gothic SF world :-/

Posted at

Story-wise, the GM could emphasise the social and investigative aspects of the game, perhaps. If the aggression, skulls and death are putting her off, having a few more scenes with the talky and searchy stuff might appeal to her gaming tastes more. Plenty of opportunity to hob-nob with the upper crust in DH (and the lower-crust, I suppose, but that's not so glamourous...the lower-crust gets pretty darned crusty in 40k!) and puzzling out motives and mysteries is just as, if not more, integral to DH as combat is.

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Eh, please ignore the above quotation of myself ( I'm struggling to delete that post ! ).

My best/worst idea: decide what the fallout will be if she, maybe, doesn't play. Will she be pissed? Will she make everyone else miserable? This might happen if she's forced to play, too, but sometimes we just have to accept that we don't want to play, we're not going to play, and then accept that other people WILL play, despite us.

Hey man, great post. Your advice is something we've already thought as well, last resort option. You're probably right about this case being a personal preference where she just simply doesn't like the setting.

40k is a masculine setting so I'm not really surprised the OP is having this problem. I can tell you, OP, that you came to the wrong place to get a good answer, as evidenced by the largely tone-deaf responses thus far.

...

...

Anyway Artuard, besides the very sensible advice of asking her what you can do to get her invested in the game, my advice is to play the game closer to high fantasy. In high fantasy the players are the good guys fighting against the bad guys and everything is black and white. Dark Heresy is very much a game of grey areas and choosing the lesser evil and so on, but it doesn't need to be.

I think you're right. This issue was brought by the GM ( Husband ) and I wasn't even aware it's not her thing until recently. So I guess we do have to have a chat. About your advice tho - are you suggesting to play high fantasy style in DH2? Or just a different system all together the likes of LOTR etc?

This is a really great team art ! :-D

Such as, what exactly about the setting isn't liked, yes it's an overly masculine toned setting, but is relatively egalitarian save a few things like boob armor or scantily clad assassins.

If she likes high fantasy, common enough, then why not move to WHFRP that way you can have both? Grimdarkness in the Fantasy of the Old World?

I think it's the setting in general. I honestly think it's just hard to find something she can relate to. Most of the party has some experience with 40k. PC games, tabletop games, etc. She was introduced to this few weeks ago and we're struggling to find something that could make her like this setting. Now that I've seen my posts and your replies It seems that what I ask if a matter of preference and my request seems ...well nonsensical. I'm sorry.

Story-wise, the GM could emphasise the social and investigative aspects of the game, perhaps. If the aggression, skulls and death are putting her off, having a few more scenes with the talky and searchy stuff might appeal to her gaming tastes more. Plenty of opportunity to hob-nob with the upper crust in DH (and the lower-crust, I suppose, but that's not so glamourous...the lower-crust gets pretty darned crusty in 40k!) and puzzling out motives and mysteries is just as, if not more, integral to DH as combat is.

Good stuff - cheers.

Posted at

Such as, what exactly about the setting isn't liked, yes it's an overly masculine toned setting, but is relatively egalitarian save a few things like boob armor or scantily clad assassins.

If she likes high fantasy, common enough, then why not move to WHFRP that way you can have both? Grimdarkness in the Fantasy of the Old World?

I think it's the setting in general. I honestly think it's just hard to find something she can relate to. Most of the party has some experience with 40k. PC games, tabletop games, etc. She was introduced to this few weeks ago and we're struggling to find something that could make her like this setting. Now that I've seen my posts and your replies It seems that what I ask if a matter of preference and my request seems ...well nonsensical. I'm sorry.

That's fair, and these things happen, at this point the only thing I can think of, other than going severly investigative and ignoring the darker parts of the setting (maybe go to Xenos branch and deal with the eldar of the Askelon and stick with orks) is moving to Rogue Trader as it's fairly light on the setting and you just get to be pirates in space and have adventures that way.

That or move systems entirely to something else.

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I think you're right. This issue was brought by the GM ( Husband ) and I wasn't even aware it's not her thing until recently. So I guess we do have to have a chat. About your advice tho - are you suggesting to play high fantasy style in DH2? Or just a different system all together the likes of LOTR etc?

I was suggesting the same as JollyP and ThenDoctor. Focus on the more accessible aspects of the setting. Don't get bogged down in the details of the setting she finds inaccessible (how exactly space marines work, how the admech operate, whatever it is). There's a range of tones you can play DH as and it can line up with the tone of a high fantasy game. Do a more traditional investigative game of high-profile people (instead of crusty skull-gangers), or introduce xenos that are objectively the bad guys for the group to fight against. Lighten it up.

That said, if there is a different game system the whole group enjoys, it may be easier to just switch to that.

Posted at

...or introduce xenos that are objectively the bad guys for the group to fight against.

That is probably your best bet- go Ordo Xenos instead of the 'default' Ordo Hereticus. More heroic "Here we come to save the day!"-type missions, and less "Kill them all and let the Emperor sort them out!" grimdarkness.

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See perceives this system as Skulls, demons, heresy, 3 meter tall soldiers, rage, regression, aggression, doom and gloom.

I'm not sure what you're indicating here by your use of the word "perceives". Does the campaign actually focus on these things or did she make up her mind that she wasn't going to like it before she even played? There's so much diversity in the setting that it can really be as much or as little about those things as the GM wants it to be; though if he's running from a pre-made adventure, there might not be as much room for flexibility.

- maybe some of you guys have some girls playing with you that have some advice

My gaming group currently includes four female players, and every single one of their faces lit up when I compared the setting to Dune. Beyond that, I emphasized the mind-boggling diversity of the Imperium and the fact that their characters could come from practically any sort of environment they wanted to (they, like nearly every women I've ever GM'd for, are very character-focused; so having that flexibility was very appealing to them). We're now almost 30 sessions in; and I honestly think that, overall, they've embraced the setting more than the guys have.

Am I correct in guessing that she has played other RPG's with this same group and GM and has enjoyed them?