So anyway, we're looking for maybe some art ( Heroines etc ) - I was struggling to find this online to be honest.

It takes a bit of work to sift through the cheesecake, but there are some good 'heroic female' 40K pics floating around out there:

I think those all fall within the taste spectrum of 'high fantasy' while still being true to 40K.

Just Google Sisters of Battle.

Just Google Sisters of Battle.

Weeeeeelllll, there's a lot of 'male fantasy' images under that search phrase. I recommend pulling select pics off the inter-webs and giving them to your friend in a folder, rather than sending her on her own image search...

See perceives this system as Skulls, demons, heresy, 3 meter tall soldiers, rage, regression, aggression, doom and gloom.

I'm not sure what you're indicating here by your use of the word "perceives". Does the campaign actually focus on these things or did she make up her mind that she wasn't going to like it before she even played? There's so much diversity in the setting that it can really be as much or as little about those things as the GM wants it to be; though if he's running from a pre-made adventure, there might not be as much room for flexibility.

- maybe some of you guys have some girls playing with you that have some advice

My gaming group currently includes four female players, and every single one of their faces lit up when I compared the setting to Dune. Beyond that, I emphasized the mind-boggling diversity of the Imperium and the fact that their characters could come from practically any sort of environment they wanted to (they, like nearly every women I've ever GM'd for, are very character-focused; so having that flexibility was very appealing to them). We're now almost 30 sessions in; and I honestly think that, overall, they've embraced the setting more than the guys have.

Am I correct in guessing that she has played other RPG's with this same group and GM and has enjoyed them?

You are correct - She was introduced to RPG's by her husband and is indeed enjoying some games ( Fantasy setting mostly). But the rest of the group got fed up with fantasy games so we switched to DH2.

So anyway, we're looking for maybe some art ( Heroines etc ) - I was struggling to find this online to be honest.

It takes a bit of work to sift through the cheesecake, but there are some good 'heroic female' 40K pics floating around out there:

I think those all fall within the taste spectrum of 'high fantasy' while still being true to 40K.

This is the Bomb man - I will pass it on to her asap. Great stuff - thanks!

...or introduce xenos that are objectively the bad guys for the group to fight against.

That is probably your best bet- go Ordo Xenos instead of the 'default' Ordo Hereticus. More heroic "Here we come to save the day!"-type missions, and less "Kill them all and let the Emperor sort them out!" grimdarkness.

This or Rogue trader seems to be a good idea as well as suggested above. I really appreciate all of the comments guys - I wasn't expecting this community to be that helpful :-D

Yep, sometimes it explodes in fits of "I'm right, you're dumb!", but usually, it does a very good job of helping the OP figure out what they want to know, and maybe even how they maybe should feel about that. As an extra, I found two pics I'll add, as IG are fun, and the model line is lazy, but in game, you might see one Inquisitor, maybe one Adepta Sororitas, but there are countless Imperial Guard. Well, I WAS going to post the images, but the website reminded me that it gets uppity with some pics, so linking will have to do. Apologies.

Mira -This is 2nd Lieutenant Mira, of the 203rd Cadian, one of the central supporting characters in Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine; a game that was actually pretty good, but I don't think nearly as many people played it as one might've hoped. Very much like God of War, or Dante's Inferno, but with a bit less of them, and a bit more Ultramarines. She might be one of my favorite female personalities in anything with the 40k tag on it. She's human, she's afraid, but she's a Guardsman, and she knows what her responsibilities are. She's not hard to look at, but she's not GW's version of "obviously a woman", or "Woman at Heroic Scale" (take what makes you a woman, and a leader personality, in 40k, and take it to 11! You get the busty Commissar, falling out of her coat that some people hate.) She has to act next to Space Marines, but she still feels very relevant, and there really isn't anything about her I don't like.

Cadian Commander -This was one of my favorite pics from Only war, their Commander specialization. I liked her because she's female, but again, not ridiculously female, she's Cadian (my by far, leaps, and away favorite regiment), and in a leadership role. Inquisitors are often almost as idiosyncratic as Rogue Traders, and some might easily use their "womanly traits", if you'll please forgive me, to get what they want, whether by distraction, projecting a false image of weakness, or whatever, and while I love Adepta Sororitas, they can look pretty cheesecake, even when the artist isn't trying; lots of people will ask why the armor, that isn't necessarily that form-fitting, needed breasts on the breastplate, when little the Sisters of Battle do is "because they are women", aside from GW's own tongue in cheek joke that lets them exist, in game. The Guard, though, can be a good image of what the rank and file of the Imperium might look like, at least as a fighting force. I'm done babbling silly now; here's hoping maybe the pictures at least help, if I didn't.

Yep, sometimes it explodes in fits of "I'm right, you're dumb!", but usually, it does a very good job of helping the OP figure out what they want to know, and maybe even how they maybe should feel about that. As an extra, I found two pics I'll add, as IG are fun, and the model line is lazy, but in game, you might see one Inquisitor, maybe one Adepta Sororitas, but there are countless Imperial Guard. Well, I WAS going to post the images, but the website reminded me that it gets uppity with some pics, so linking will have to do. Apologies.

Mira -This is 2nd Lieutenant Mira, of the 203rd Cadian, one of the central supporting characters in Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine; a game that was actually pretty good, but I don't think nearly as many people played it as one might've hoped. Very much like God of War, or Dante's Inferno, but with a bit less of them, and a bit more Ultramarines. She might be one of my favorite female personalities in anything with the 40k tag on it. She's human, she's afraid, but she's a Guardsman, and she knows what her responsibilities are. She's not hard to look at, but she's not GW's version of "obviously a woman", or "Woman at Heroic Scale" (take what makes you a woman, and a leader personality, in 40k, and take it to 11! You get the busty Commissar, falling out of her coat that some people hate.) She has to act next to Space Marines, but she still feels very relevant, and there really isn't anything about her I don't like.

Cadian Commander -This was one of my favorite pics from Only war, their Commander specialization. I liked her because she's female, but again, not ridiculously female, she's Cadian (my by far, leaps, and away favorite regiment), and in a leadership role. Inquisitors are often almost as idiosyncratic as Rogue Traders, and some might easily use their "womanly traits", if you'll please forgive me, to get what they want, whether by distraction, projecting a false image of weakness, or whatever, and while I love Adepta Sororitas, they can look pretty cheesecake, even when the artist isn't trying; lots of people will ask why the armor, that isn't necessarily that form-fitting, needed breasts on the breastplate, when little the Sisters of Battle do is "because they are women", aside from GW's own tongue in cheek joke that lets them exist, in game. The Guard, though, can be a good image of what the rank and file of the Imperium might look like, at least as a fighting force. I'm done babbling silly now; here's hoping maybe the pictures at least help, if I didn't.

Much appreciated Sir :-)

Yep, sometimes it explodes in fits of "I'm right, you're dumb!",

But... I am always right, and anyone who disagrees with me is dumb. It's so obvious...

So anyway, we're looking for maybe some art ( Heroines etc ) - I was struggling to find this online to be honest.

It takes a bit of work to sift through the cheesecake, but there are some good 'heroic female' 40K pics floating around out there:

I think those all fall within the taste spectrum of 'high fantasy' while still being true to 40K.

This is the Bomb man - I will pass it on to her asap. Great stuff - thanks!

In that case, here's a few more:

At least someone knows to post decent artwork on this thread for a change. Gotta love Rogue Trader artwork's scroll fetish though, muh purity (while using xenos weapons).

If you don't want soldiers and rage issues, as noted, rack up the nobility and politics elements.

Not every conspiracy necessarily has its roots in the chaos gods; sometimes the nobility are just scheming to overthrow the lord-governor because they want to be the next lord-governor. Or because they want to secede from the Imperium. Or because they're secretly running the faceless trade.

At low 'coalface' levels, Dark Heresy is doom, gloom, daemons and skull-walls, and space marines charging in to save the day. At higher levels - rogue trader and 'actual' inquisitors, it's basically Game Of Thrones with radios or Dune..

Awesome artwork guys! ALL of it!

Pardon the incoming rant, I'm having SJW overload! (I get it really quickly these days!) Please don't disparage someone's artwork because it doesn't fit your brand of professional grievance mongering! For the record; I have known more female gamers who appreciate the so-called "Cheesecake" art than are offended by it! I offer as exhibit A: the world of Cosplay, where the "Princess Leia slave costume" is one of the most commonly copied. Also commonly seen are Mass effect's Miranda Lawson and Various permutations of Larry Elmore and Boris Valejo! Hardly examples of extreme prudism! These are live flesh and blood women that are actively pursuing these roles! (Something my Nerdish self would have never dreamed of when I was a teenager!) Remember that in this day of various sexualities, a "Cheesecake" piece might be as or even more appealing to another female as it would any "Male fantasy"!

On to the OP's question: I would suggest you treat your friend's wife the same way as you would any other gamer whom you fear might be losing interest. Find out what appealed to her in previous games. What's different? Is it just the Grimdark tone? Or is it really something else? The great thing about 40k is the vast difference of possibilities that exist within a fantasy environment. Admittedly my group is a little bit older but when I explained to them that 40k is basically like Ravenloft mixed with Star wars they understood it just fine! I agree with the poster who said to play up the investigative aspect. I would also suggest learning and playing the fear and corruption aspects of the game. Most women I've gamed with are also fans of horror movies. Please note I'm not necessarily talking about gore and slasher flicks, but rather the suspense and thriller aspects. It's harder to develop this kind of game but very worth it if you can do it!

There's a difference between a woman choosing to dress that way and sweaty basement-dwelling neckbeards filling RPG books and internet threads with art that depict women as sex objects first and foremost.

If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that some people have bad opinions.

Pardon the incoming rant, I'm having SJW overload! (I get it really quickly these days!)

Should take a moment before posting then, not embarrass yourself and all that.

There's a difference between a woman choosing to dress that way and sweaty basement-dwelling neckbeards filling RPG books and internet threads with art that depict women as sex objects first and foremost.

Yes, the difference is called interpretation.

The difference is in the eyes of those that look said artwork and the intention of the ones drawing it.

Notably, in the case of Cognizar's posts, many pictures were commissionned by players that are girls that wanted said images of their characters. Not quite what you described and what you reproached.

I personnaly am not a fan of the manga style, nor am I of the over sexualisation that we see everywhere (and in greater scale than what perceived/drawn here), but I'm certainly against forcing perceived intentions on other people.

Should take a moment before posting then, not embarrass yourself and all that.

You too, not quite the most constructive post the world of forums ever seen.

I'm not perfect and clearly am acid (more in the domain of game mastering), but I think everyone should take at least time to be constructive in what they post.

Pardon the incoming rant, I'm having SJW overload! (I get it really quickly these days!)

Should take a moment before posting then, not embarrass yourself and all that.

You Misunderstand...I'm not embarassed in the least! I could go on for hours on that subject but it would not be appropriate on a gaming forum. I said nothing derogatory to anyone! A fact evidenced by CPS not finding reason to Troll me outright. (Although, to his credit, he has been MUCH more civil lately!)

As Alexel and I both pointed out, These were pictures commissioned within the gaming group and not what was wrongly attributed to them. That was my point, and I believe also Alexel's!

My other point was that while chainmail bikini bunnies and Fur loincloth bodybuilders are equally impractical in combat, they are simply a genre of art and not necessarily an indictment of the Artist! If I remember correctly, Boris Valejo was a pretty strong advocate for women! (for example) Attributing some sort of 'ism to such work is in fact, it's own form of ignorance! Art is supposed to be inspiring and provocative! I am often surprised at the people who preach tolerance and diversity are the most intolerant of said diversity of all!

Hey guys remember when I said

I can tell you, OP, that you came to the wrong place to get a good answer, as evidenced by the largely tone-deaf responses thus far.

Enjoy your stay, OP.

You Misunderstand...I'm not embarassed in the least! I could go on for hours on that subject but it would not be approp

SCKoNi, I could have told you this would be the reaction you'd get. Embarrassment requires one to be capable of feeling shame.

Art is supposed to be inspiring and provocative!

Art in general I'd agree with you, but that's not really what we're talking about. We're talking about commercial art, and that serves a function. The artwork in RPGs (and from the communities around them) serve to draw in the game's target demographic and tell them what kind of game it is, what you can be in it, etc. Burly barbarian men and sexy bikini blonds sends a message, and you (the general you, who use the term 'SJW') act like I'm crazy for saying so.

If you think the cheesecake style serves to project a tolerant and inclusive atmosphere and community you are delusional.

Next session is on Wednesday guys so I will keep you posted - I plan to have a quick chat to see what could be done about the issue.

Nothing screams to me that the setting isn't female friendly, based on all the 40k books I've read and the lore as a whole. Ofcourse, people have different tastes and the grimdark aspect of 40k amongst other things isn't for everybody.

In case of art, everybody has different tastes or like to see different things. Males are visual creatures and so a lot of them like to emphasize whatever they like to see, if that's an emphasized bosom then there is nothing wrong with that. The good news is that you'll also come across art that will be more fitting for you and it's a roleplaying game so you can picture the setting however you'd like it to be.

There's a difference between a woman choosing to dress that way and sweaty basement-dwelling neckbeards filling RPG books and internet threads with art that depict women as sex objects first and foremost.

If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that some people have bad opinions.

There is something to be said about oversensitive people as well who would cry murder if there is only the slightest hint of sexual emphasization in art, just like you did with Cogniczar's art pictures before. To me those pictures were so innocent but to you it would be the objectification and degradation of women apparently

If a female rpg player would create a male character and make him look muscled and sexy looking and uses an art picture to depict him and those attributes, would that be sexual objectification as well? An insult to the male gender?

Get off your high horse, the art is not a representation of a whole gender nor an insult to it, it's part of a fantasy world (fantasy being the keyword here), a way to let people escape from the real world and fantasize about things.

The only instance where somebody could be truelly harmed/insulted sexually by art is when they would be personally depicted in an artwork and sexualized to a level where he/she would be uncomfortable with.

The so called "objectification" of women in art and the assumption that comes from that is ironic. It would assume that this objectification would carry over in the real world, that men would treat women as sex objects just because of that. That assumption on its own is sexist in nature since you're just assuming that because:

1: The person is a male

2: He likes to look at art that has some sexual aspects to it.

that somehow this person would automatically objectify women in real.

Liking certain sexual aspects of the art only shows that you as a person are sexually active and like certain things (bosoms, buttocks, hips, ...). It's like the assumption that playing fps games would somehow make you a violent person.

I think it's time for this to be closed.

If a female rpg player would create a male character and make him look muscled and sexy looking and uses an art picture to depict him and those attributes, would that be sexual objectification as well? An insult to the male gender?

If we lived in a matriarchal society it sure would.

I would agree that the 40K setting is frequently pigeon-holed as an over the top blood guts and guns setting. What gets downplayed is the setting's sense of humor in regards to this (other than a mention of orks). So it's all over the top, but also tongue in cheek, with adjustments to the ratios based on who's writing the story. There has been a general push toward grimdarkness over black humor in a lot of the Games Workshop material, though. Praise to FFG for being willing to to keep some humor in.

Also, I don't think the grimdarkness is an inherently "masculine" thing, although if you made me put money on it Id say more men are into it than women. Cheesecake and creepy behavior are more offputting to women than the setting itself.

Anyway, OP, we're missing some information on your player. We know that she isn't taken with the grimdarkness over the topness of the setting. What did she like about high fantasy, though? Something that seems to happen with 40K a lot is that the dehumanization caused by the scale of the setting leads to having onenote characters that serve more as plot points than as people. It's hard to empathize with a bunch of people who just trudge about their sh*tty work doing sh*tty things that won't help anyone with no real optimism or enjoyment. Call of Cthulhu plays on the very real human behavior of curiosity, and even addresses it in a meta kind of way, as the more curious the players are, the worse off their characters will be. High fantasy can be like a fun adventure, especially in a D&D setting. Characters make quips and joke around even as they go through and do what would normally be traumatizing things, because there's an in-setting detachment by the characters that is the same as what the players have. In other words, the players just see things as a challenge and adventure and the characters mostly do so as well. The primary appeal for 40k as a setting is the idea of being over the top and gross and gory.

So I guess the things you could emphasize would be a more adventurous bent to the game similar to high fantasy, humanize the NPCs and players some more rather than having them be caricatures, focus on th exploration and curiosity aspects, and work to do black humor that is more about irony than just screaming WAAAAGH over and over at each other.

Hello Dark Heresy forum community-

This thread has devolved into personal attacks, and it has now been locked. Feel free to continue beneficial discussion elsewhere, but remember to keep conversation kind and respectful at all times.

Thanks, and keep playing,

Evan