The Ghost. Is freaking annoying. Overpowered Rebel plot armor.

How's that Decimator going for you? Or perhaps Soontir Fel?

Depends on how smug your post is meant to be: if totally smug, I'd say that you haven't destroyed enough decimators. Nor has anyone in your meta figured out ghosts. Then again. I could point out that the decimator gains the turret but pays 5 points for it but does not have the sensor slot nor the turret options while only losing 1 crew. It also gains a 4th attack dice which is crucial to burning things down fast and also has 2 arcs for all sorts of special madness.

Have you played 2 decimators before? I have. It's not good. Played 2 ghosts? It's much better.

I'm also rather well trained in Soontir Vader palp. Does okay but dies to blocking. Unless you're paragoomba slayer. It's his unslayable goomba.

So. How's that decimator doing for you? And that interceptor?

Also I said it's annoying. As in stupid. Annoying. Irritating. Ugly looking. Undercosted to the decimator.

An annoying large based rebel ship. And I got lots of precedent for hating those. (Cough. Wave 5).

Not being smug, more a case of pointing out what I perceive to be a double standard. I was referring to plot armor and how you say its difficult to kill the Ghost...yet mention nothing about the Decimator (which has the same overarching statline as the ghost) and Soontir Fel who is notorious for being able to survive, due to what I subjectively am going to call "Imperial Propaganda Plot Armor".

Anyway, back to the Ghost, the Ghost is balanced. Peg design is dumb, but the ship is balanced with all it's stats and upgrade slots accordingly. As for undercosted, maybe that's because a Decimator will always get to fire, unlike a standard ghost which has to pay for its turret and even then it has to be concerned about the range restrictions turrets offer. That 4th attack dice is pretty nice, but useless if you have nothing in your firing arc.

No idea why the aux arc is for torps only, maybe it's their way of encouraging the use of more torpedoes and to give it a trick up its sleeve?

All I know is that I've played the Ghost a few times and I'm enjoying it. It soaks damage like a sponge, but it's a fun toolbox ship.

I'm actually in the process of buying 3 Jumpmasters (I have 2, and will likely get the third after next payday). I've played with the two that I have, as I loved running my beefed up Dengar (easily my favorite scum ship/pilot now), so I figured I'd try the "cheese" everyone is talking about. I've run 2 Jumpmasters (U-boat variants, of course) aided by either Kavil with a Blaster Turret or 4-LOM with upgrades. Both lists have done...okay. I played a casual game against a guy in my local group who used N'dru Suhlak with Lone Wolf and such, with Kavil and a TLT and Zuckuss. That list game me a hard time. Now, I'm no bad player, and I made a mistake here and there getting used to running the list, but it doesn't appear to be as powerful as people say. I ended up only winning that game with a single Jumpmaster left with 1 Hull point. Then I played against some different people and various builds, and while I won, I got wrecked in the process. And this was against non-tourney level lists.

As far as the other ships go, lets look at the TAP. The Inquisitor is obviously good, and is ridiculously fun in my opinion. The title is a bit too cheap for what it does in my opinion, and the TAP makes the old TIE Advanced obsolete to an extent, but otherwise it's fine. Valen Rudor is also a lot of fun if you run him right. I even came up with a nerdy idea of running 5 generics with Autothrusters and the Title, because I think it would be hilarious.

Mist Hunter...The issue I have with this ship is the agility. It's a heavy fighter with 1 Agility, in a meta where people spam TLTs. It's going to die. Granted, I still love it. Most people in my meta use Zuckuss, but I prefer 4-LOM with PTL and some other shinies. Overall fun ship, but I wouldn't consider it competitive.

Ghost. Well, it's a cool model. And if you complain the Ghost is OP, well, shoot at it. It'll die quickly. I've only had success with it in super casual games (trying every pilot in a variety of ways), and even then it usually dies. I think it's too expensive for what it does, and the lack of anything but a forward arc (unless you spend another ship's worth of points) is rough. I love the mechanics of it, though. The crew are all fun. (Side note, it peeves me that if you bring the Phantom, you can only have a total of 5 of the Rebel members. Ghost pilot + 2 Crew + Phantom Pilot + 1 crew. Like, whaaaaat)

So, in conclusion:

Jumpmaster: A+ Fun ship, good pilots, and then of course the obvious cheap generic (which I think is a tad over-rated).

TAP: A- Great ship, fun rules, fun pilots, good upgrade choices, but my peeve is the TIE Advanced is now somewhat obsolete.

Mist Hunter: B- Very fun ship, but not really competitive. I personally hate the TLT, so releasing new ships that are TLT bait bugs me.

Ghost: C Too expensive unless you run Brothal Rebels, and even then it's not impressive. The Decimator does better, imo. Another ship that's bait to TLTs, but it super fun in casual play.

I think your concerns about the TLT are based too much on the old meta. Things have changed. Mass TLT is a very risky squad to use now.

the 6Zs is definitely possible: you can get 5 talas and Blount with 4 concs and 2 tracers.

But the match is still not an insta win:

This "not an insta win" has hit a chord with me. Why do we want lists that are "insta wins" against other lists? To me it seems that many of the people complaining about wave 8, are the people who want lists that steamroll others. When I play X-Wing I want to win by out flying my opponent, not because I brought the perfect counter to his list and he had no chance! 3 Jumpmasters is powerful, but if you fly well its easily beatable. Players who are good at flying and think strategically can still beat it, just like they used to beat 4x TLT's, Fat Han, and all the other 'meta' lists that have come about.

I don't think FFG is perfect at game design, and bringing us a hard counter to triple jumps next wave is unnecessary. But wave 8 overall was great, it made many ships viable, ordnance is a thing and now there is more diversity than ever before!

the 6Zs is definitely possible: you can get 5 talas and Blount with 4 concs and 2 tracers.

But the match is still not an insta win:

This "not an insta win" has hit a chord with me. Why do we want lists that are "insta wins" against other lists? To me it seems that many of the people complaining about wave 8, are the people who want lists that steamroll others. When I play X-Wing I want to win by out flying my opponent, not because I brought the perfect counter to his list and he had no chance! 3 Jumpmasters is powerful, but if you fly well its easily beatable. Players who are good at flying and think strategically can still beat it, just like they used to beat 4x TLT's, Fat Han, and all the other 'meta' lists that have come about.

I don't think FFG is perfect at game design, and bringing us a hard counter to triple jumps next wave is unnecessary. But wave 8 overall was great, it made many ships viable, ordnance is a thing and now there is more diversity than ever before!

Because if you play to the competitive aspiration your list is supposed to do this: give you a slight lead in certain match ups so that you can prepare for those less, have certain easier times playing against something and be overall very competitive.

The problem is relativity: the scouts has an utter insta win against most other lists. Against most casual lists I'd reckon it has a toppling 80% chance of winning against something random. Consider that 50% is equally balanced and that 60% in most competitive games merits nerf discussion.

Scouts instantly win against most things. That's the level by which you compare strength. Palp aces gives you a strong chance to win most games into the long run. Although it requires a longer game. But it also has a high certainty of winning.

And then of course, 4 TLT Y has a near like 90% of losing to scouts.

The only reason the Scouts are as prevalent as they are is because they have the exact perfect storm of cost, upgrades, and a PWT as backup. If they couldn't take Deadeye, the astromech, or they didn't have a PWT, you wouldn't see them as much. That said, they aren't nearly as game-warping as pre-nerf Phantoms. They do pretty much crush any old school jousting ship that is PS3 and lower, because not only do they get full modded proton torpedo attacks, they also get to plink away with their 2 attack (3 at range 1) when the enemy dodges their arc. The white sloop also aids their torpedo jousting quite a bit.

I think they're the new hotness, but I also believe they have exploitable weaknesses and they are far from a sure thing for dominating tournaments. I think a LOT of people have been dying to use ordnance for a LONG time, so you're seeing them flock to the most efficient delivery boat all at once.

Palp Aces is huge also, of course. It's I don't mind that it's a thing, as Imperial ace pilots are some of the most fun ships to fly in the game--their play style embodies what this game is all about. The problem is when you have Soontir Fel dead to rights in arc and he turns blank blank blank focus into four evades. Very frustrating to play against.

The problem is relativity: the scouts has an utter insta win against most other lists.

[citation needed]

Its pretty painfully obvious that they were costed to make $$, blind Freddy could see they were too cheap for what they bring. For a game that showed so much promise all it seems to be is chasing its tail fix after fix, meta counter after meta counter. Nothing will change, the cycle will keep repeating as the company grows.

On the bright side I have been loving my Baron TAP, been running PTL, Title, Autothrusters and PRockets. Lots of action economy and a solid fully modified 5 dice attack thanks to still getting an evade when I PTL for a focus and TL. Can be squishy for its points but found it really solid next to a PRocket vader.

the 6Zs is definitely possible: you can get 5 talas and Blount with 4 concs and 2 tracers.

But the match is still not an insta win:

This "not an insta win" has hit a chord with me. Why do we want lists that are "insta wins" against other lists? To me it seems that many of the people complaining about wave 8, are the people who want lists that steamroll others. When I play X-Wing I want to win by out flying my opponent, not because I brought the perfect counter to his list and he had no chance! 3 Jumpmasters is powerful, but if you fly well its easily beatable. Players who are good at flying and think strategically can still beat it, just like they used to beat 4x TLT's, Fat Han, and all the other 'meta' lists that have come about.

I don't think FFG is perfect at game design, and bringing us a hard counter to triple jumps next wave is unnecessary. But wave 8 overall was great, it made many ships viable, ordnance is a thing and now there is more diversity than ever before!

Because if you play to the competitive aspiration your list is supposed to do this: give you a slight lead in certain match ups so that you can prepare for those less, have certain easier times playing against something and be overall very competitive.

The problem is relativity: the scouts has an utter insta win against most other lists. Against most casual lists I'd reckon it has a toppling 80% chance of winning against something random. Consider that 50% is equally balanced and that 60% in most competitive games merits nerf discussion.

Scouts instantly win against most things. That's the level by which you compare strength. Palp aces gives you a strong chance to win most games into the long run. Although it requires a longer game. But it also has a high certainty of winning.

And then of course, 4 TLT Y has a near like 90% of losing to scouts.

I agree with this. I don't know yet if Scouts have a competitive balance problem, but they clearly have a Negative Play Experience problem outside of competitive environments.

"Git gud scrub" should not be a satisfactory counter-argument to people who don't like Contracted Scouts, especially in a game with the strapline "Fly Casual".

the 6Zs is definitely possible: you can get 5 talas and Blount with 4 concs and 2 tracers.

But the match is still not an insta win:

This "not an insta win" has hit a chord with me. Why do we want lists that are "insta wins" against other lists? To me it seems that many of the people complaining about wave 8, are the people who want lists that steamroll others. When I play X-Wing I want to win by out flying my opponent, not because I brought the perfect counter to his list and he had no chance! 3 Jumpmasters is powerful, but if you fly well its easily beatable. Players who are good at flying and think strategically can still beat it, just like they used to beat 4x TLT's, Fat Han, and all the other 'meta' lists that have come about.

I don't think FFG is perfect at game design, and bringing us a hard counter to triple jumps next wave is unnecessary. But wave 8 overall was great, it made many ships viable, ordnance is a thing and now there is more diversity than ever before!

Because if you play to the competitive aspiration your list is supposed to do this: give you a slight lead in certain match ups so that you can prepare for those less, have certain easier times playing against something and be overall very competitive.

The problem is relativity: the scouts has an utter insta win against most other lists. Against most casual lists I'd reckon it has a toppling 80% chance of winning against something random. Consider that 50% is equally balanced and that 60% in most competitive games merits nerf discussion.

Scouts instantly win against most things. That's the level by which you compare strength. Palp aces gives you a strong chance to win most games into the long run. Although it requires a longer game. But it also has a high certainty of winning.

And then of course, 4 TLT Y has a near like 90% of losing to scouts.

I agree with this. I don't know yet if Scouts have a competitive balance problem, but they clearly have a Negative Play Experience problem outside of competitive environments.

"Git gud scrub" should not be a satisfactory counter-argument to people who don't like Contracted Scouts, especially in a game with the strapline "Fly Casual".

Replace, "Scouts" in your post with, "Palp Aces".

Also, Fly Casual isn't actually in the rules anywhere.

I'm actually in the process of buying 3 Jumpmasters (I have 2, and will likely get the third after next payday). I've played with the two that I have, as I loved running my beefed up Dengar (easily my favorite scum ship/pilot now), so I figured I'd try the "cheese" everyone is talking about. I've run 2 Jumpmasters (U-boat variants, of course) aided by either Kavil with a Blaster Turret or 4-LOM with upgrades. Both lists have done...okay. I played a casual game against a guy in my local group who used N'dru Suhlak with Lone Wolf and such, with Kavil and a TLT and Zuckuss. That list game me a hard time. Now, I'm no bad player, and I made a mistake here and there getting used to running the list, but it doesn't appear to be as powerful as people say. I ended up only winning that game with a single Jumpmaster left with 1 Hull point. Then I played against some different people and various builds, and while I won, I got wrecked in the process. And this was against non-tourney level lists.

As far as the other ships go, lets look at the TAP. The Inquisitor is obviously good, and is ridiculously fun in my opinion. The title is a bit too cheap for what it does in my opinion, and the TAP makes the old TIE Advanced obsolete to an extent, but otherwise it's fine. Valen Rudor is also a lot of fun if you run him right. I even came up with a nerdy idea of running 5 generics with Autothrusters and the Title, because I think it would be hilarious.

Mist Hunter...The issue I have with this ship is the agility. It's a heavy fighter with 1 Agility, in a meta where people spam TLTs. It's going to die. Granted, I still love it. Most people in my meta use Zuckuss, but I prefer 4-LOM with PTL and some other shinies. Overall fun ship, but I wouldn't consider it competitive.

Ghost. Well, it's a cool model. And if you complain the Ghost is OP, well, shoot at it. It'll die quickly. I've only had success with it in super casual games (trying every pilot in a variety of ways), and even then it usually dies. I think it's too expensive for what it does, and the lack of anything but a forward arc (unless you spend another ship's worth of points) is rough. I love the mechanics of it, though. The crew are all fun. (Side note, it peeves me that if you bring the Phantom, you can only have a total of 5 of the Rebel members. Ghost pilot + 2 Crew + Phantom Pilot + 1 crew. Like, whaaaaat)

So, in conclusion:

Jumpmaster: A+ Fun ship, good pilots, and then of course the obvious cheap generic (which I think is a tad over-rated).

TAP: A- Great ship, fun rules, fun pilots, good upgrade choices, but my peeve is the TIE Advanced is now somewhat obsolete.

Mist Hunter: B- Very fun ship, but not really competitive. I personally hate the TLT, so releasing new ships that are TLT bait bugs me.

Ghost: C Too expensive unless you run Brothal Rebels, and even then it's not impressive. The Decimator does better, imo. Another ship that's bait to TLTs, but it super fun in casual play.

I think your concerns about the TLT are based too much on the old meta. Things have changed. Mass TLT is a very risky squad to use now.

Well, not in my current meta. New people have been showing up, fresh newbies to the game, and because they spend money on 2 K-wings and 4 Most Wanteds, they think they're hot stuff. And sad thing is, they're not losing to lists like this. If anyone in my group uses a turret, it's a TLT.

Replace, "Scouts" in your post with, "Palp Aces".

Also, Fly Casual isn't actually in the rules anywhere.

I get what you're saying. There's an issue in how it happens, though - Palp Aces flown well run rings around you, you try and catch them but just can't. Jumpmasters flown pretty averagely destroy your entire game plan on turn 2. While both of them ultimately have very similar outcomes vs 'fly casual' one at least feels like a game of X-Wing, while the other one feels like a game of X-Wing got spoiled on turn 2.

And for clarity: I play Jumpmasters, so I'm not on the wrong end of that. But I do have enough empathy to understand how it's coming across.

Replace, "Scouts" in your post with, "Palp Aces".

Also, Fly Casual isn't actually in the rules anywhere.

I get what you're saying. There's an issue in how it happens, though - Palp Aces flown well run rings around you, you try and catch them but just can't. Jumpmasters flown pretty averagely destroy your entire game plan on turn 2. While both of them ultimately have very similar outcomes vs 'fly casual' one at least feels like a game of X-Wing, while the other one feels like a game of X-Wing got spoiled on turn 2.

And for clarity: I play Jumpmasters, so I'm not on the wrong end of that. But I do have enough empathy to understand how it's coming across.

I understand why people don't like U-Boats. I get it. What I don't get is why people don't hate Palp Aces equally.

If all one had to do was worry about U-Boats, you could just bid to PS 4. Bumping, rule of 11, asteroids, etc. can be used against them. You can beat them with general play style and mid-PS bids. Palp Aces requires hard counters, it's more binary and nuanceless.

I'd rather lose all my ships turn 3 and get it over with than get into an end game situation where I block Soontir, fire off a 3/3 hit shot at him, and have his dice spike once and lose the game.

If Palp Aces wasn't a thing I could just slap quad Gamma, quad EM, quad Chips, quad Homing Missiles down and be able to deal with U-Boats and have a nice general purpose squad.

I always find these posts funny, I would love to see how most of you fly. The scout is honestly just fine. I have seen it do well, and do poorly, like a ship should. After playing and watching so many of these "OP" lists, I find it hard to even start to believe you have any where near as much experience as you might say fighting against them. They all have their weaknesses and I bet you anything, you trying to figure them out, will net you better results then lamentating on the internet about their "OP" qualities.

Also, if you think the G1-A is not viable, you haven't tried it yet. Both named pilots are beastly when done right, 4LOM is the main reason I did so well in the Hoth open. So many didn't realize his power till it was to late. Barrons as well are amazing little procket carriers. Did a list with 2 of them and Vessery, it was hilarious how strong an alpha that had. The fact that a UBoat melted before it fired was beautiful.

I think the way the meta shapes up and people keep complaining about OP ships just push other players to fly differently and try other ships.

I'm currently running a build that people say shouldn't be winning but it is and i'm really happy with it. Attani minklink is amazing, people think it's bad but it has caused a lot of other current meta builds to have a few issues.

Personally, I think it's odd that the Contracted Scouts have an EPT. If they didn't, multiples wouldn't be nearly as scary. It's the combination of Deadeye and the astromech that makes their munitions so powerful.

Personally, I think it's odd that the Contracted Scouts have an EPT. If they didn't, multiples wouldn't be nearly as scary. It's the combination of Deadeye and the astromech that makes their munitions so powerful.

I agree especially considering the PS3

Personally, I think it's odd that the Contracted Scouts have an EPT. If they didn't, multiples wouldn't be nearly as scary. It's the combination of Deadeye and the astromech that makes their munitions so powerful.

Even if they didn't I suspect you'd still see triple jumpmaster lists. Manaroo and Tel with Deadeye/Agro/EM/Proton/Chips leaves you with 25 points to throw into a naked scout. Or a TLT y wing, Lone Wolf/Cluster/Stim N'Dru, or any of a few other Scum 25 point options.

...

I'm going to have to try this out.

The (imho) winners of the Wave:

Pilots:

Omega Leader

Lothal Scout, Chopper.

Contracted Scout

The Inquisitor

Red Ace

Upgrades:

Ezra Crew

Juke

Hera Crew

Kanan Crew

Guidance Chips

TIE/v1

4-LOM Crew

Boba Fett Crew

Adaptability

Zuckuss Crew

Tractor Beam,

The promised ones, that sort of failed (for now):

XX-23 S-Thread Tracers, Electronic Baffle, Targeting Astromech, Zeta Leader

The losers of the wave:

All the other pilots.

Seriously, Rudor is a lot of fun, especially with PRockets, but he is utterly daft compared to the Inquisitor.

The same goes for the Sienar and Baron.

Just a couple notes about Zeta Leader. I think he's a fantastic ship for the points (21-25). He was just part of the regionals winning list in California. The only reason he probably doesn't see more play specifically is because of Omega Leader in that point range and he's also behind about 7-8 other ships in a category the Imperials excel in (and frankly, don't need more of unless their abilities add synergy to something else).

in your opinion, what's the best build with Zeta Leader?

the list that has win regionals in California, how is bulid?

thx

Honestly, all he needs is 1. Howlrunner and Crackshot or Predator.

4LOM is the main reason I did so well in the Hoth open. So many didn't realize his power till it was to late.

The emphasized part is why I think he did well.

The problem is relativity: the scouts has an utter insta win against most other lists.

[citation needed]

I believe if this were true, triple scouts would be winning every regional and tournament.

Don't get me wrong, triple scouts are good and easy to fly well enough to make the cut. It is a type of list that does not require much skill to do well (just like Fat Han and 4xTLT were). Also triple jumps is a list that requires skill (more critical thinking than skill) to beat.

My theory is that triple jumps are getting such a backlash because the majority of x wing players do not spend enough time thinking about the lists they are facing, and tend to use the same strategy for every match. This lack of variation in turn 0 strategy leads to people claiming (insert list here) is overpowered.

As triple jumps see more play, and more people learn how to beat them, I predict the backlash will disappear. Just because something makes you have to change your strategy and style of flying, doesn't mean its overpowered.

TLDR, Fly Better, Fly Casual.

The (imho) winners of the Wave:

Pilots:

Omega Leader

Lothal Scout, Chopper.

Contracted Scout

The Inquisitor

Red Ace

Upgrades:

Ezra Crew

Juke

Hera Crew

Kanan Crew

Guidance Chips

TIE/v1

4-LOM Crew

Boba Fett Crew

Adaptability

Zuckuss Crew

Tractor Beam,

The promised ones, that sort of failed (for now):

XX-23 S-Thread Tracers, Electronic Baffle, Targeting Astromech, Zeta Leader

The losers of the wave:

All the other pilots.

Seriously, Rudor is a lot of fun, especially with PRockets, but he is utterly daft compared to the Inquisitor.

The same goes for the Sienar and Baron.

Just a couple notes about Zeta Leader. I think he's a fantastic ship for the points (21-25). He was just part of the regionals winning list in California. The only reason he probably doesn't see more play specifically is because of Omega Leader in that point range and he's also behind about 7-8 other ships in a category the Imperials excel in (and frankly, don't need more of unless their abilities add synergy to something else).

in your opinion, what's the best build with Zeta Leader?

the list that has win regionals in California, how is bulid?

thx

Zeta Leader has a couple of builds I like but it depends on the points and what you have in your list.

In California, he had Crack Shot as part of his CS squad. With Howlrunner also in the list. It's pretty solid because he gets 3 dice with his ability.

He's good with just Wired, or if you have the points, Wired+Comms. You can also run him like Omega Leader with Juke+Comms, again with the extra die.

Its pretty painfully obvious that they were costed to make $$, blind Freddy could see they were too cheap for what they bring. For a game that showed so much promise all it seems to be is chasing its tail fix after fix, meta counter after meta counter. Nothing will change, the cycle will keep repeating as the company grows.

I have to say that I don't believe FFG makes ships over powered to make money. I've played Games Workshop games and I've seen that strategy in action. I've also been playing X-wing since Wave 1. I've seen the game advance and I've seen when things have unbalanced the game when they came out. I've seen ships come out a little weak due to conservative game design. I believe FFG does not make any ship over powered to sell minis. I've seen them make many attempts to have a balanced game. I know it's hard to create a truly balanced game system when you have a setup like X-wing does. It makes much more sense that things are perhaps not fully balanced when they come out with a new Wave.

If FFG really wanted to milk profits for making something OP, they would probably make a generic small ship over powered. I think the profit margin on selling more smaller based ships is higher than on selling a few large based ships. If FFG was really trying to make something OP for profit, it would be a small based ship that didn't require a lot of resin to make...like the Scyk.

Personally, I love Wave 8. I just wish this month wasn't so full of family events that prevents me from playing as much.

I think I need to see a doctor after reading this thread. There's so much salt I developed high blood pressure.

"Zeta Leader has a couple of builds I like but it depends on the points and what you have in your list.

In California, he had Crack Shot as part of his CS squad. With Howlrunner also in the list. It's pretty solid because he gets 3 dice with his ability.

He's good with just Wired, or if you have the points, Wired+Comms. You can also run him like Omega Leader with Juke+Comms, again with the extra die."

My fvourtie two zeta lists are: predator & comms, and lone wolf and comms.

Lone wolf zeta is a force, but he depends on squad composition. I love him.

in your opinion, what's the best build with Zeta Leader?

the list that has win regionals in California, how is bulid?

thx

I have extensively flown Zeta Leader, Wired, Comm Relay. Wired is super excellent on Zeta Leader.

As someone else said, the winning California tie swarm with Zeta Leader just had Crack Shot.