So. I feel like Wave8 introduced a few design ideas that were completely horrible, but my gut theorizing is not always right. I've tried a few games so far, and in some ways, there's a huge amount of stuff that got good help, when the game is taken to its highest competitive level, I've seen extremely bad things happen.

One interesting thing is that the 2-3 Scouts (with a possible different 3rd ship) was extremely strong, but now isn't played much for some reason. As for why, I literally have no idea.

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I'm really against the fact that the Contracted Scouts with Torpedos are so strong and so undercosted as to totally ruin any other usages for Guidance Chimps and ordnance. We once thought that Guidance Chimps would help the 6Zs, 4Tie Adv Cluster, Khriasklndf's with missiles, the TAPs with Missiles, and Bombers with something that we would have a diverse meta. Unfortunately, the Scout is nearly 200% more effective than those lists.

It also completely invalidates the TLT lists, which is amazing, that it utterly counters the strongest upgrade from the last wave EVEN with the possible "buff" of getting Overclocked R4. That's just crazy.

And also very very saddening. As much as TLT not that fun for many people, it at least brought back to unforeseen relevance an OT wave1-3 ship.

I also do not like how Tractor Beam was done gameplay wise. It seems to be a very very very strong counter to small ships and low PS and then very very very ineffective versus large ships. Granted it can stop C3PO and it does remove 1 agility from a scout, but honestly, these are not worth it for losing the damage. Its utterly useless versus a Ghost so much that its not even worth doing the motions of the attack. These types of extreme cases tend to become hard counters and make the game more rock-paper-scissory and not as diverse.

Even with the Defender unreleased double attack, the Tractor beam is just extremely useless versus strong things to be annoying.

The Ghost. Is freaking annoying. Overpowered Rebel plot armor. Overbearing presence on the board and an utter pain in the ass to remember upgrades, arcs and ranges for. I loathe it so much I have steadfastly restrengthened my resolve to never get it and to even borrow one for competitive events if I use it.

Also, that peg design was so so so dumb: Why couldn't the give it two little slits for the other parts of the peg to slip in and be sturdier? Why is it not possible to remove the Phantom thing from it? Why does IT get to fire torps out the back arc and nothing else does??

As for the TAP... The Inquisitor is cool. The rest of them? Utter sith. Seinars are totally destroyed by Scouts. Barons cost too much. The shoot for such a piddly amount. Even the Inquisitor I'm really not fond of due to it really needing Boost and BR AND needing to TL/Evade and really wanting to Focus while its at it. It basically wants 1 or 2 more actions than it gets.

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So your thoughts?

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(Basically: I don't think the "sky is falling". There's fun to be had. But I'm really not happy with the tip top competitive level of play as it stands nor the design of wave8 in general. I think its a step back from Wave7, even WITH TLT.

Don't read too much into what you perceive might be a emotional whine, cuz I love emotional whining. You'll know.)

I mean, i don't think the sky is falling as bad as you say it is, but you've got some very good points. I don't personally see a large threat in the Ghost when it's on the table, because at least for me, with the lists i've built since day one, i just sling damage and it's dead in 2-3 turns.

Now, 3 scouts...

It does, frankly, annoy me that the JM5K has a PS1 cost identical to the PS1 cost of a T-70 freaking X-Wing. The JM5K is a better ship than a T-70. It has a 2 die PWT(which i consider equivalent to a 3 die primary for the sheer fact that maneuvering means less), it's a large base, native barrel roll, white Sloop, more green maneuvers, 1 speed turns, identical agility, 2 more hull, 1 more shield, and 2 more upgrade slots. A single, naked JM5K is better than a naked T-70 X-Wing. For the same base price. Why. Why is this the case. The JM5K was significantly undercosted. Technically you can run 4 JM5Ks. I want to point out that you can't run 4 Red Squadron Veterans, the T-70 generic with an EPT slot. I have no clue why FFG priced them the way that they did. Not only that, but it's pretty drastically shifted the meta overnight. It's not quite as bad as the Phantom, but most everyone seems concerned with building lists to fight 3 Scouts than to fight any other list.

Low agility small ships dont really....have a place in this meta. Because against 2-3 torps a turn, trading agility for HP doesnt work because it chews through all your health anyways. Your only chance is arc dodging and relying on high agility and tokens. Rebels can't do that. Rebels have a very small cadre of 3 Scout counters, and that falls apart against Palp Aces. So, while yes, Imperials got a small showing this wave with the TIE Adv. Proto, Imps arent really any worse for wear. Rebels really, really got the pointy end of the stick this wave. The Ghost seems to see some marginal victory; But if you dislike the Ghost, like myself, sucks to be you i guess, cause everything else doesnt work. Tractor Beam doesnt help. Imperial ships at least have the option to arc dodge, but Rebels, as i've mentioned, really can't do that as well, and any Rebel small ship at -1 agility dies twice as fast. Imp ships like Soontir have less to worry about since Soontir + Palp just dodges everything anyways.

Ok, maybe i think the sky is falling as bad as you say it is. Maybe i'm just ultra cynical. Maybe i'm delusional. Whatever.

Disagree about the Ghost being op, spot on about everything else.

Yes ordnance is fixed, but scouts are the best ordnance carriers by far so many other ordnance carriers are still not being played.

I think the wave8 meta is a step back from the (TLT)meta we had before, there seems to be fewer viable lists and rebels in particular are struggling. I certainly hope we see more diversity in future waves.

I agree with a few of the things you say - mostly thst ghost crew members are a pain in the ass to renember.

Contacted scout u boats are definitely strong but not unbeatable - I think maybe making the Contracted Scout unique would have been a good idea

The tap is sweet tho, and the g1-a is also seemingly well designed - balanced and adaptable

This isn't a worse wave than the one that brought us the useless defender and overpowered phantom, though.

It good.

Oh, and also agree the tractor beam is a powerful card. For one point, it can neuter low agility small ships, which kind of sucks.

One, one point card shouldn't make such an impact - just as I wrote this, I thought of vet Instincts...

But there is something frustratingly gimmicky about the tractor beam. I'm not sure I like how much it swings the game

Utter Sith!

made my day!

Oh, and also agree the tractor beam is a powerful card. For one point, it can neuter low agility small ships, which kind of sucks.

One, one point card shouldn't make such an impact - just as I wrote this, I thought of vet Instincts...

But there is something frustratingly gimmicky about the tractor beam. I'm not sure I like how much it swings the game

VI can be argued to warp the game. I can see that.

But dang. Tractor Beam is interesting. Doesn't warp it as much. But where it matter, its really really strong.

Basically: I don't think the "sky is falling". There's fun to be had. But I'm really not happy with the tip top competitive level of play as it stands nor the design of wave8 in general.

Also, if the rumor holds true that wave9 has a direct hard counter to the 3Scouts, I really really not happy about that. Why destroy something that was good for one wave that some people DO like? Why keep making hard counters. That's not the mark of a good game.

I think in general wave 8 has been a great wave, so much new stuff added. The only thing is the scouts is priced to cheap. Alex Davey said in a podcast that they were aware 3 scouts was going to be good and a direct counter is comming in wave 9. This is either good or bad. If it is good FFG had once more thought of something fun and new to the game that will have a general broad impact to the game, where we just will have to suffer this wave with out that balance mechanic. If it is a bad piece of FFG design, they have choosen the GW route and just invented a nerfbat of a couter, sticking it to people who bought 3 jumpmasters. I hope after the "fix" 3 jumpmasters is still playable, but more balanced, how they are going to do this, no idea.

But in general this has been a wave where all the named pilots seems to have some potential (Sorry Graz the Hunter, you will never see play) I disagree with the OP about the generic TAPS. I have not tested the Misthunter enough yet.

The Ghost, I have not bought it, and only played against it once, it got blown up and I won!

All in all I hope FFG works to constantly give us as balanced a game as they can. I don't demand the kind of perfection some people on these boards do, I find it a bit spoiled and unrealistic. My only hope is FFG don't adobt the mentality of each wave having a clear strong list where if people buy a certain amount of one ship, they have a winnig tournament list, leaving everything else in the dust. TLT spam and 3 scouts comming to mind. For now I am glad that Scum finally got a break. People will learn to fly against 3 scouts and new lists will become viable as old ones disappear, that is the way of the game.

I still enjoy this game so much and there still seems to be so many lists i wan't to try out, so I am good !

The (imho) winners of the Wave:

Pilots:

Omega Leader

Lothal Scout, Chopper.

Contracted Scout

The Inquisitor

Red Ace

Upgrades:

Ezra Crew

Juke

Hera Crew

Kanan Crew

Guidance Chips

TIE/v1

4-LOM Crew

Boba Fett Crew

Adaptability

Zuckuss Crew

Tractor Beam,

The promised ones, that sort of failed (for now):

XX-23 S-Thread Tracers, Electronic Baffle, Targeting Astromech, Zeta Leader

The losers of the wave:

All the other pilots.

Seriously, Rudor is a lot of fun, especially with PRockets, but he is utterly daft compared to the Inquisitor.

The same goes for the Sienar and Baron.

Exactingly daft.

I'm putting Guidance Chimps under failed promised ones. I was hoping my 6Zs would be just even, possibly, maybe, a teensy bit playable. No.

I think its time for the Yoda "you must unlearn what you have learned" speech, if that is how you feel. The game is changeing again, give it some time to settle before you rule out these things.

I agree so far as the 2-3 torpedoboat lists are annoying, due to the scout being undercosted. Or perhaps more precisely, the selection of upgrade slots available to the scout(!) which in combination with very good and cheap upgrades (some of which are scum only!) together makes the scout the alpha-strike powerhouse other munition carriers hope to aspire to, but the important thing is:

Wave 8: Munitions finally got fixed!! We got our alpha strike!!!

And I really enjoy that additional game play element. This has been a long way, with several incremental "fixes"/"buffs" to munitions which never really made it, until now. Somehow I think it is torpedoboat had to be under costed, for munitions to make the necessary big impact to the meta, just as the TLT had to be under costed by 1-2 point.

AND then there is another surpricing gameplay element which I really enjoy. That fact that we now really start to see "specialization builds". We have always had certain upgrades which made a particular type of ship work, but this time you need numerous small upgrades, some which by themselves adds somthing (but not enough) but where the "Whole exceeds the sum of its parts". I hope to see more of this in the future.

For the rest of Wave 8, I love the new mechanics, especially the fun the tractor beam brings to the table.

Wave 8 is simply great. Jumpmasters5000 are perfect - powerful yet not overpowered. The problem is that the rest of scum ships are not fixed yet, so scum players drifts towards u-boats every time they are trying to build something competitive. After the fix this mono-jmk500-meta will be gone.

The most surprising thing in the Wave 8 for me is, that Boba Fett card was supposed to be Palpatine killer and it turned out that Palpatine is so healthy as never before

Oh, and also agree the tractor beam is a powerful card. For one point, it can neuter low agility small ships, which kind of sucks.

One, one point card shouldn't make such an impact - just as I wrote this, I thought of vet Instincts...

But there is something frustratingly gimmicky about the tractor beam. I'm not sure I like how much it swings the game

It's not just a 1 point card, though, is it?

It's a 1 point card that takes up your cannon slot. You could have a HLC there. It's a 1 point card which replaces your attacks for that round (unless you're flying the TIE/D), and does no damage itself.

Scout is undercosted by at least two points IMO. Other pilots for the P1 are fine, and it comes with some interesting upgrades. (I think that the Scout should probably be unique. Limiting the Scouts to two effective ones and a cheap third ship by making them have to use Manaroo or Tel as the

Mist Hunter just enters a dead zone meta-wise, but comes with awesome crew and interesting upgrades.

TAP is cool, though a point more expensive than I'd hoped, and I'm a little disappointed that it came with Chimps rather than Autothrusters.

Ghost is good but has counters and requires a very different flying style from other big ships (except maybe brobots).

TB in particular I think is just right. It's a 1 point upgrade that's strong but does no damage at all, and does nothing to 0-agility ships of which hey, there's one right there in this wave, and another that sees a reasonable amount of use too - but unless you build your list around it, it's not going to be effective, it's only worth putting in if the majority of your ships shoot after it. And even if you do, the current things which tote it are mostly not that high in PS and are predictable with little or no after-action movement. And with all the worry about asteroids, I've yet to see any evidence personally that they're the scariest part of it. It's relatively easy to fly in such a way that you can avoid being shoved into them.

I've thrown it in for a point on inappropriate ships several times and suffice it to say, it's just not worth it.

When Vets drops it's gonna be goooooood though.

Ghost stand is the most underpowered element in the game.

So OP it teeters.

Ghost stand is the most underpowered element in the game.

Yeah, that Ghost tand is a huge cock-up, it should have had three sockets, not just one.

And I suspect it's also the cause of the big shipping delay, my guess is that they got the production proofs of it with either just a normal stand or an epic stand and it just kept snapping so it needed emergency re-engineering.

I've already lost a punishing one peg to a dropped Ghost. Easy enough fix though.

I'm seeing no shortage of missile loaded Z-95s on the field at the moment, either as 16 point filler for Rebel or Scum lists or as a full on ordnance swarm. I've been seeing this list with reasonably frequency and it's working well, at least in our local scene.

Bandits?
Why not PS4 Tala?

Owww hello there, Scouts. Want to see some MISSILES?

Bandits?

Why not PS4 Tala?

Owww hello there, Scouts. Want to see some MISSILES?

I've seen a variant that's 4 Talas and 2 Bandits, all with Concussion Missiles and Guidance Chips, but people seem to really like Blount for setting up target locks for the rest of the ships. A Concussion Missile backed with Guidance Chips and a focus hits hard, and if you've got more than one of those being shot at pretty much any ship it's in trouble. :-)

I can definitely see the appeal of PS 4 at the moment though.

Wave 8 would have been fine if the designers hadn't priced the scout at 25 points. What on earth were they thinking?! It should have been 25 without an EPT or 27 with. It feels like a sloppy oversight on the designers part.

This isn't comparable to TLT spam as TLTs were so easily beaten. JM5Ks are far more dominant, winning regionals, open series etc. I have hopes that imperial veterans will reign them in somewhat, allowing for a more diverse meta once again.

the 6Zs is definitely possible: you can get 5 talas and Blount with 4 concs and 2 tracers.

But the match is still not an insta win:

This is because you need to kill one scout before it fires and that basically requires 3 missiles after evades and assuming no lucky double direct hits.

Then you have to actually land the tracer. You have to also get all of your guys trained on one scout with the right range. This is doable but not a given. If you think it's a given you're speaking in absolutes of play that are not even close to the reality.

I played 25 games of 6Zs even BEFORE guidance chimps. I know what I'm doing. Against a bad player you can get all 4 missiles off. Against a good player you can usually manage only 3.

Now against scouts it's kind of easier as you have better PS. However this list has a really hard time versus aces and that's where the trouble starts. The Blount and the travers variants are much much worse versus aces and are much harder to set up due to TL requirement and their arc dodging.

Anyway back to scouts: assuming you actually got off the 3 missile shot, you're now left with 5 naked Zs against the two remaining scouts. Which will have shot one of your Zs down immediately and then have one more torp for a near instant kill on the next. This is a doable game but by no means is it totally in your favor after the next round: 4 naked Zs vs 2 scouts with turrets.

Do you see this? All of that work to engineer only a slight edge in that match up. And then losing horribly against aces. Not a winning combination.

Whereas the scout can focus and shoot over a larger arc at anything that strays in its path regardless of PS. Then boasts more HP and a turret and also the astromech for extra damage in the end game.

Is that a comprehensive enough primer as to why 6Zs isn't better as a list than 3 scouts even if it wins this particular matchup? (Which IMO I dont think it does to any certain degree. Not a hard counter. )

At first I decided to collect Rebels - personally I prefer to play small fighters aces lists, unfortunately Wave 8 killed those types of lists for Rebels. Fortunately Empire provides plenty of meta viable small ship aces so I switched sides.

P.S. Also, am I the only one who hates Ghost aesthetics? I bought this ships for cards but I hate it with a passion and played with it only once.