Multiple events that are triggered by the same event or timing window can be resolved in any order if they are all abilities being used by the same player. If multiple players are involved then initiative order comes into play.

If you look closely TLT's second attack and gunner ALMOST have the same trigger conditions, but not exactly. TLT comes after the first TLT attack. Gunner comes after an attack that didn't hit. If the first TLT failed and the player attempts to use the second TLT attack and then Gunner and the second attack does hit then Gunner could not be triggered because the second attack has Hit. Gunner specifically states it happens after an attack that didn't hit. If another attack hits after a missed attack but before gunner then the 'game state' has changed and the trigger is no longer valid.

Rudor and Dengar are in response to defenders being attacked.

Multiple events that are triggered by the same event or timing window can be resolved in any order if they are all abilities being used by the same player. If multiple players are involved then initiative order comes into play.

If you look closely TLT's second attack and gunner ALMOST have the same trigger conditions, but not exactly. TLT comes after the first TLT attack. Gunner comes after an attack that didn't hit. If the first TLT failed and the player attempts to use the second TLT attack and then Gunner and the second attack does hit then Gunner could not be triggered because the second attack has Hit. Gunner specifically states it happens after an attack that didn't hit. If another attack hits after a missed attack but before gunner then the 'game state' has changed and the trigger is no longer valid.

Rudor and Dengar are in response to defenders being attacked.

But Gunner has triggered when you miss the first attack. It doesn't untrigger because you choose to trigger a different triggered effect first.

Everyone, stop looking at the wording for TLT as two separate attacks. A TLT fires twin(2) beams at a target. One shot, two beams (This is why there is no targrt declaration for the second attack). If only one of the two beams hits the target or both miss it completely, then GUNNER effect is triggered. The same effect would be applied if CLUSTER MISSLES missed with one of it's attacks.

Both upgrades, TLT and CLUSTER MISSLES, are two attacks at one opportunity. Each GUNNER upgrade can only effect one opportunity a turn.

This is why two GUNNERs cannot effect the same TLT or CM action. It is also why the GHOST/PHANTOM title cards we're worded so, so that two GUNNER cards could not be equipped on the GHOST and operate in the same turn.

Everyone, stop looking at the wording for TLT as two separate attacks. A TLT fires twin(2) beams at a target. One shot, two beams (This is why there is no targrt declaration for the second attack). If only one of the two beams hits the target or both miss it completely, then GUNNER effect is triggered. The same effect would be applied if CLUSTER MISSLES missed with one of it's attacks.

Both upgrades, TLT and CLUSTER MISSLES, are two attacks at one opportunity. Each GUNNER upgrade can only effect one opportunity a turn.

This is why two GUNNERs cannot effect the same TLT or CM action. It is also why the GHOST/PHANTOM title cards we're worded so, so that two GUNNER cards could not be equipped on the GHOST and operate in the same turn.

I do believe this explanation is the simplest and easiest to understand.

Everyone, stop looking at the wording for TLT as two separate attacks. A TLT fires twin(2) beams at a target. One shot, two beams (This is why there is no targrt declaration for the second attack). If only one of the two beams hits the target or both miss it completely, then GUNNER effect is triggered. The same effect would be applied if CLUSTER MISSLES missed with one of it's attacks.

Both upgrades, TLT and CLUSTER MISSLES, are two attacks at one opportunity. Each GUNNER upgrade can only effect one opportunity a turn.

This is why two GUNNERs cannot effect the same TLT or CM action. It is also why the GHOST/PHANTOM title cards we're worded so, so that two GUNNER cards could not be equipped on the GHOST and operate in the same turn.

If it's a singe attack then Gunner should only ever trigger if both of them miss. It's not a single attack though, the FAQ makes that clear. No one is suggesting that Gunner would trigger twice (even though each attack is a seperate opportunity). The wording on Gunner itself prevents it from triggering twice and granting more than one attack in a round.

This used to be really clear. Why is it suddenly confusing?

If you miss with the first attack with TLT or CM, then you have the choice to use Gunner. If you do, then you can't perform any more attacks, which effectively negates the TLT/CM second attack. The FAQ and the Gunner card text backs this up.

There is no trigger for the second TLT/CM attack. It's part of the basic mechanism for the upgrade. A trigger implies you have a choice to use it or not. You choose to fire TLT, and make two attacks, which are treated as separate attacks at the same target. The only thing that can interrupt this is the use of Gunner after the first attack if it misses.

No you can't because Gunner specifically states you cannot attack again this round, and cannot is absolute.
I'm also failing to see any reference in the FAQ where you can miss the first TLT attack, hit with the second TLT attack, and then claim a Gunner attack for the missed first attack.

Look at the Valen Rudor FAQ entry. His ability only triggers before TLT or Gunner if he has inititiave. That establishes that the second attack from TLT is handled the same way that offer effects are.

I've looked at that, and I still can't make the connection between him and applying Gunner to a missed first attack after a hit with a second attack. I would say if you don't use Gunner after the first attack and proceed to the second, it's now a missed opportunity. You had your chance and chose not to use it.

If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a later time.

You can just as easily replace "forgets to declare" with "opts not to trigger", and it still has the same meaning.

So just how can you justify the use of Gunner after a TLT sequence of Miss/Hit?

Revised TLT wording on card:

"Perform an attack (even against a ship outside your firing arc) by rolling 3 dice from your right hand and 3 dice from your left hand at the same time, but you know, separately, so they don't get all mixed up, so they are basically like two attacks, but not, they're one attack twice. Say the phrase "Pew Pew". Pew 1 represents the right hand roll, Pew 2 represents the left hand roll. For each Pew, if that Pew hits, then the defender suffers 1 damage and all other dice in that Pew are cancelled."

I'm pretty sure that would clear up this mess.

Revised TLT wording on card:

"Perform an attack (even against a ship outside your firing arc) by rolling 3 dice from your right hand and 3 dice from your left hand at the same time, but you know, separately, so they don't get all mixed up, so they are basically like two attacks, but not, they're one attack twice. Say the phrase "Pew Pew". Pew 1 represents the right hand roll, Pew 2 represents the left hand roll. For each Pew, if that Pew hits, then the defender suffers 1 damage and all other dice in that Pew are cancelled."

I'm pretty sure that would clear up this mess.

So I searched the internet and finally found the updated card.

Revised TLT wording on card:

"Perform an attack (even against a ship outside your firing arc) by rolling 3 dice from your right hand and 3 dice from your left hand at the same time, but you know, separately, so they don't get all mixed up, so they are basically like two attacks, but not, they're one attack twice. Say the phrase "Pew Pew". Pew 1 represents the right hand roll, Pew 2 represents the left hand roll. For each Pew, if that Pew hits, then the defender suffers 1 damage and all other dice in that Pew are cancelled."

I'm pretty sure that would clear up this mess.

So I searched the internet and finally found the updated card.

:thumbsup: Perfect.

I think I may have stumbled onto the solution in determining when GUNNER is triggered. First off, GrimmyV had it right all along:

Multiple events that are triggered by the same event or timing window can be resolved in any order if they are all abilities being used by the same player. If multiple players are involved then initiative order comes into play.

If you look closely TLT's second attack and gunner ALMOST have the same trigger conditions, but not exactly. TLT comes after the first TLT attack. Gunner comes after an attack that didn't hit. If the first TLT failed and the player attempts to use the second TLT attack and then Gunner and the second attack does hit then Gunner could not be triggered because the second attack has Hit. Gunner specifically states it happens after an attack that didn't hit. If another attack hits after a missed attack but before gunner then the 'game state' has changed and the trigger is no longer valid.

Rudor and Dengar are in response to defenders being attacked.

Overall, the mess of 'after attacking/defending' timing triggers needs a broader clarification than just the bitty here-and-there FAQing of individual cards.

I've been consciously avoiding taking lists to tournaments that have these mechanics in because it's not reliable how they will be ruled.

(And I like Phantoms. And Dengars.)

This used to be really clear. Why is it suddenly confusing?

If you miss with the first attack with TLT or CM, then you have the choice to use Gunner. If you do, then you can't perform any more attacks, which effectively negates the TLT/CM second attack. The FAQ and the Gunner card text backs this up.

There is no trigger for the second TLT/CM attack. It's part of the basic mechanism for the upgrade. A trigger implies you have a choice to use it or not. You choose to fire TLT, and make two attacks, which are treated as separate attacks at the same target. The only thing that can interrupt this is the use of Gunner after the first attack if it misses.

It is only now confusing because FFG changed the Valen Rudor FAQ and added a bit to the FAQ about what 'perform this attack twice' means. Previously, we handled multiple attacks by completely resolving the first attack and all of the resulting triggered effects before moving on to the second attack. With those two changes to the FAQ it looks like those second attacks are nothing more than after attacking effects and should be handled the same as any other.

If disagree with with your statement that triggers imply choices, Rebel Captive and Mara Jade are both mandatory effects that have triggers. Regardless of whether or not the second attack from TLT has a trigger, it still clearly has a timing. It's the timing that mattering in the order that effects resolve, not the triggers (assuming that all triggers have been met). The 'perform this attack twice' FAQ entry gives the second attack an 'after attacking' timing window.

No you can't because Gunner specifically states you cannot attack again this round, and cannot is absolute.

I'm also failing to see any reference in the FAQ where you can miss the first TLT attack, hit with the second TLT attack, and then claim a Gunner attack for the missed first attack.

Look at the Valen Rudor FAQ entry. His ability only triggers before TLT or Gunner if he has inititiave. That establishes that the second attack from TLT is handled the same way that offer effects are.

I've looked at that, and I still can't make the connection between him and applying Gunner to a missed first attack after a hit with a second attack. I would say if you don't use Gunner after the first attack and proceed to the second, it's now a missed opportunity. You had your chance and chose not to use it.

FAQ, pg. 10:

If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a later time.

You can just as easily replace "forgets to declare" with "opts not to trigger", and it still has the same meaning.

So just how can you justify the use of Gunner after a TLT sequence of Miss/Hit?

OK I see where you're coming from now. I still maintain that there is no trigger for the second attack. It's part of the mechanic, and it's going to happen unless something specifically stops it. Such as the last line of text on Gunner. I agree that there should be a fully resolved attack followed by after attacking/after defending triggers (which would not include the second attack), before moving onto the second attack. It just seems the only logical way to handle it.

I think the previous FAQ entry for Rudor was the one that made everyone question things.

"If Valen Rudor defends against a ship equipped with Tactician, the range for Tactician is measured after Valen Rudor performs his free action."

This is the one that basically gave Rudor initiative regardless of whether he had it or not. Which was just a wrong call (and probably prompted the update that followed so soon after). I think they may have attempted to re-address this original passage, but in another case of ham-fisted writing, what they've come up with has actually created more problems than it solved.

I don't think it was intentional to alter the basic mechanics of Gunner or Initiative, but it unfortunately seems to have come out that way. I think Rudor's current entry was an attempt to clarify the previous one. By applying the basic rules (prior to either of Rudor's curious entries), things that happened after attacking/defending were sorted out via initiative and then you moved on. Personally, I'm going to carry on with that because I know it works. And because I only play socially, it's not going to be an issue.

But I thing FFG need to address this again and sort out EXACTLY what they mean, and hopefully get it right once and for all.

You aren't forgetting to declare or opting not to trigger Gunner, you are resolving another effect with the same timing before it.

As far as I can see, they do not share the same timing. Gunner says immediately, TLT does not...IDK am I missing something here? Seems straightforward enough

As repeatedly noted above, Valen's FAQ implies that they share the same timing, because his reactions to both are dependent on initiative.

The general consensus is that Valen's FAQ is probably a screwup, but at the moment, it's RAW.

Yeah I probably should have read the whole thread first tbh.

I still maintain that the gunner card RAW makes it clear that "TLT-miss-hit-Gunner" does not work. It is not a case of abilities resolving at the same time. Rather it's about when the player chooses to resolve abilities. As the player chooses which abilities, actions, cards, and events to resolve, they are changing the game state.

When two events share a trigger, the player MUST choose the order in which they resolve those events. Some of those events may cancel others. They may cancel the other event directly, or by changing the game state. We all seem to agree that in this scenario, using Gunner after missing the first TLT attack will forfeit the ability of the player to perform any other attacks that round, including the second TLT attack.

Gunner reads as follows:

After you perform an attack
that does not hit, you may
immediately perform a
primary weapon attack. You
cannot perform another
attack this round.

In regard to the OP, the first sentence of the Gunner card explains when this Crew Upgrade may be used. The word IMMEDIATELY is important here. In this usage, it does NOT mean the player MUST use Gunner before any other ability, but rather that the upgrade MAY be ONLY used in the window immediately after an attack that does not hit. If you have FCS (Fire Control System) and use it, you are still resolving events "after an attack that does not hit". If Dengar or Valen activate their abilities, you are still resolving events "after an attack that does not hit".

Once the player performs the second attack from TLT they are creating a new event window. If that second attack hits, it is now IMPOSSIBLE for the player to immediately perform a primary weapon attack, after performing an attack
that does not hit. They are in a new game state," after an attack that hits". That previous opportunity has been passed.

If a player chooses not to use Gunner after their first TLT attack, and their second TLT attack hits, then Gunner is no longer usable because they CHOSE not to use Gunner when they had the opportunity.

The most recent Valen Rudor FAQ entry refers to re-measuring range and arc to ensure a valid attack can be made if Valen Rudor repositions using his ability after the first TLT/CM attack.

The Perform This Attack Twice FAQ entry only clarifies that the second attack from TLT/CM is in fact a separate attack, however the weapon and target are not declared again as they remain the same, and any
cost for the attacks is not paid again.

Neither of these entries infer that the second TLT attack is anything other than another attack on a specific target with a specific weapon for free.

The most recent Valen Rudor FAQ entry refers to re-measuring range and arc to ensure a valid attack can be made if Valen Rudor repositions using his ability after the first TLT/CM attack.

The Perform This Attack Twice FAQ entry only clarifies that the second attack from TLT/CM is in fact a separate attack, however the weapon and target are not declared again as they remain the same, and any

cost for the attacks is not paid again.

Neither of these entries infer that the second TLT attack is anything other than another attack on a specific target with a specific weapon for free.

But the FAQ on Rudor says you only do that if he has initiative. If he doesn't have initiative he's unable to perform an action before the second attack. That implies that the second attack is treated the same as other effects.

The most recent Valen Rudor FAQ entry refers to re-measuring range and arc to ensure a valid attack can be made if Valen Rudor repositions using his ability after the first TLT/CM attack.

The Perform This Attack Twice FAQ entry only clarifies that the second attack from TLT/CM is in fact a separate attack, however the weapon and target are not declared again as they remain the same, and any

cost for the attacks is not paid again.

Neither of these entries infer that the second TLT attack is anything other than another attack on a specific target with a specific weapon for free.

But the FAQ on Rudor says you only do that if he has initiative. If he doesn't have initiative he's unable to perform an action before the second attack. That implies that the second attack is treated the same as other effects.

There is nothing there that infers the second attack is like other effects.

It does not state that the player must have initiative to use Valen's ability. Rather it states "If the player controlling Valen Rudor has initiative and uses Valen Rudor’s ability to move" that the attacker must take steps that are normally skipped on the second attack of the weapons in question. Specifically "if the attacker has the ability to perform another attack (such as from Cluster Missiles or Gunner), range is measured and firing arc is checked again. This can prevent the attacker from performing the second attack."

It is a specific "if-then" scenario. If Valen has initiative AND moves, the attacker MUST remeasure before performing THE SECOND ATTACK.

If anything, this shows that the second attack is a separate attack.

I honestly believe this can be handled with the "Do what it says, not what it doesn't" rule.

The most recent Valen Rudor FAQ entry refers to re-measuring range and arc to ensure a valid attack can be made if Valen Rudor repositions using his ability after the first TLT/CM attack.

The Perform This Attack Twice FAQ entry only clarifies that the second attack from TLT/CM is in fact a separate attack, however the weapon and target are not declared again as they remain the same, and any

cost for the attacks is not paid again.

Neither of these entries infer that the second TLT attack is anything other than another attack on a specific target with a specific weapon for free.

But the FAQ on Rudor says you only do that if he has initiative. If he doesn't have initiative he's unable to perform an action before the second attack. That implies that the second attack is treated the same as other effects.

There is nothing there that infers the second attack is like other effects.

It does not state that the player must have initiative to use Valen's ability. Rather it states "If the player controlling Valen Rudor has initiative and uses Valen Rudor’s ability to move" that the attacker must take steps that are normally skipped on the second attack of the weapons in question. Specifically "if the attacker has the ability to perform another attack (such as from Cluster Missiles or Gunner), range is measured and firing arc is checked again. This can prevent the attacker from performing the second attack."

It is a specific "if-then" scenario. If Valen has initiative AND moves, the attacker MUST remeasure before performing THE SECOND ATTACK.

If anything, this shows that the second attack in a separate attack.

I honestly believe this can be handled with the "Do what it says, not what it doesn't" rule.

So if it isn't treated like other effects in regards to timing, why does it matter if Rudor has initiative?

The most recent Valen Rudor FAQ entry refers to re-measuring range and arc to ensure a valid attack can be made if Valen Rudor repositions using his ability after the first TLT/CM attack.

The Perform This Attack Twice FAQ entry only clarifies that the second attack from TLT/CM is in fact a separate attack, however the weapon and target are not declared again as they remain the same, and any

cost for the attacks is not paid again.

Neither of these entries infer that the second TLT attack is anything other than another attack on a specific target with a specific weapon for free.

But the FAQ on Rudor says you only do that if he has initiative. If he doesn't have initiative he's unable to perform an action before the second attack. That implies that the second attack is treated the same as other effects.

There is nothing there that infers the second attack is like other effects.

It does not state that the player must have initiative to use Valen's ability. Rather it states "If the player controlling Valen Rudor has initiative and uses Valen Rudor’s ability to move" that the attacker must take steps that are normally skipped on the second attack of the weapons in question. Specifically "if the attacker has the ability to perform another attack (such as from Cluster Missiles or Gunner), range is measured and firing arc is checked again. This can prevent the attacker from performing the second attack."

It is a specific "if-then" scenario. If Valen has initiative AND moves, the attacker MUST remeasure before performing THE SECOND ATTACK.

If anything, this shows that the second attack in a separate attack.

I honestly believe this can be handled with the "Do what it says, not what it doesn't" rule.

So if it isn't treated like other effects in regards to timing, why does it matter if Rudor has initiative?

The Devs decided that initiative was one of the two conditions that must be met to force the attacker to remeasure arc and range before performing the Second attack.

The most recent Valen Rudor FAQ entry refers to re-measuring range and arc to ensure a valid attack can be made if Valen Rudor repositions using his ability after the first TLT/CM attack.

The Perform This Attack Twice FAQ entry only clarifies that the second attack from TLT/CM is in fact a separate attack, however the weapon and target are not declared again as they remain the same, and any

cost for the attacks is not paid again.

Neither of these entries infer that the second TLT attack is anything other than another attack on a specific target with a specific weapon for free.

But the FAQ on Rudor says you only do that if he has initiative. If he doesn't have initiative he's unable to perform an action before the second attack. That implies that the second attack is treated the same as other effects.

There is nothing there that infers the second attack is like other effects.

It does not state that the player must have initiative to use Valen's ability. Rather it states "If the player controlling Valen Rudor has initiative and uses Valen Rudor’s ability to move" that the attacker must take steps that are normally skipped on the second attack of the weapons in question. Specifically "if the attacker has the ability to perform another attack (such as from Cluster Missiles or Gunner), range is measured and firing arc is checked again. This can prevent the attacker from performing the second attack."

It is a specific "if-then" scenario. If Valen has initiative AND moves, the attacker MUST remeasure before performing THE SECOND ATTACK.

If anything, this shows that the second attack in a separate attack.

I honestly believe this can be handled with the "Do what it says, not what it doesn't" rule.

So if it isn't treated like other effects in regards to timing, why does it matter if Rudor has initiative?

The Devs decided that initiative was one of the two conditions that must be met to force the attacker to remeasure arc and range before performing the Second attack.

So your contention is that when a ship with Gunner or TLT attacks Rudor he will always get his action before the next attack, regardless of initiative? Then depending on initiative the attack may or may not have to check for arc and range again? That seems like an overly complicated interpretation.

It makes a lot more sense for initiative to matter if that's the only way that Rudor would have been able to move before the attack rather than developer whim.

The more I think about the impact of moving a ship and then depending on initiative to decide if you you need to use range and arc from the old position or the new one, the more issues I see.

If you are using Rudor's old position to determine range and arc which position do you use for other effects that happen during the attack? Why would the range change for Lone Wolf or Carnor Jax's ability but not for the attack?

If you have initiative,Gunner, and TLT on a VCX-100 and are attack Rudor at range three. You measured range for the first attack but did not check arc during the first shot because the range was causing his autothrusters to trigger and TLT doesn't care about the arc. Rudor boosted after the first attack, and barrel rolled after the second. Rudor is now clearly in arc at range one, can Gunner even trigger? Arc was never on the first shot, is it even legal to check for it now?

The most recent Valen Rudor FAQ entry refers to re-measuring range and arc to ensure a valid attack can be made if Valen Rudor repositions using his ability after the first TLT/CM attack.

The Perform This Attack Twice FAQ entry only clarifies that the second attack from TLT/CM is in fact a separate attack, however the weapon and target are not declared again as they remain the same, and any

cost for the attacks is not paid again.

Neither of these entries infer that the second TLT attack is anything other than another attack on a specific target with a specific weapon for free.

But the FAQ on Rudor says you only do that if he has initiative. If he doesn't have initiative he's unable to perform an action before the second attack. That implies that the second attack is treated the same as other effects.

There is nothing there that infers the second attack is like other effects.

It does not state that the player must have initiative to use Valen's ability. Rather it states "If the player controlling Valen Rudor has initiative and uses Valen Rudor’s ability to move" that the attacker must take steps that are normally skipped on the second attack of the weapons in question. Specifically "if the attacker has the ability to perform another attack (such as from Cluster Missiles or Gunner), range is measured and firing arc is checked again. This can prevent the attacker from performing the second attack."

It is a specific "if-then" scenario. If Valen has initiative AND moves, the attacker MUST remeasure before performing THE SECOND ATTACK.

If anything, this shows that the second attack in a separate attack.

I honestly believe this can be handled with the "Do what it says, not what it doesn't" rule.

So if it isn't treated like other effects in regards to timing, why does it matter if Rudor has initiative?

The Devs decided that initiative was one of the two conditions that must be met to force the attacker to remeasure arc and range before performing the Second attack.

So your contention is that when a ship with Gunner or TLT attacks Rudor he will always get his action before the next attack, regardless of initiative? Then depending on initiative the attack may or may not have to check for arc and range again? That seems like an overly complicated interpretation.

It makes a lot more sense for initiative to matter if that's the only way that Rudor would have been able to move before the attack rather than developer whim.

I didn't say that Valen got to move regardless of initiative. I was pointing out what the FAQ DOES say. The faq does not say Valen needs initiative to use the ability (it doesn't need to). It says that the attacker must remeasure arc and range before performing his second attack.

The point being that the second attack is an attack for game purposes. The FAQ entry is there to show that SOME of the steps you skip on a normal TLT second attack must be done. The entry does not infer that the second attack is anything other than a regular attack where the player skips some steps that have already been performed.