With the latest FAQ, it looks like it's possible to make two TLT attacks where the first one misses and the second one hits and then make a primary weapon attack with Gunner afterwards. However, it's a bit contentious, so I wanted to work through it.

Relevant rules text:

Twin Laser Turret: "Perform this attack twice (even against a ship outside your firing arc)."

FAQ: "When a card effect instructs you to perform an attack twice, it means: 'After you perform this attack for the first time, perform another attack against the same target using this weapon.'"

Gunner: "After you perform an attack that does not hit, you may immediately perform a primary weapon attack."

Rules Reference: "If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative chooses which of his abilities to resolve and resolves them in the order of his choosing. Then the opposing player does the same for his own abilities."

Argument in favor of TLT-miss-hit-Gunner:

When you make your first attack with the TLT and miss, two abilities resolve at the same time ("after you perform an attack"). One is the second TLT attack and the other is the primary weapon attack from Gunner. Because two abilities are resolving at the same time, you can choose to resolve the second TLT attack first and then the Gunner attack after that, regardless of whether the second TLT attack hits or misses.

Rebuttal to argument in favor:

You don't (or won't continue to) have complete freedom in resolving abilities in the order of your choosing. Resolving "nested" abilities is confusing and will be forced into a more intuitive order via the FAQ. The example here is Darth Vader (crew) which in theory could be used as miss-(Gunner-Vader)-Vader, but the FAQ requires it to go miss-Vader-Gunner-Vader.

Argument against TLT-miss-hit-Gunner:

The text for Gunner says you may "immediately" perform an attack, which implies that you must resolve it before other abilities that resolve at the same time. If you instead choose to take the second TLT attack and hit, you've missed your opportunity to use Gunner because you didn't do it "immediately".

Rebuttal to argument against:

All abilities get resolved immediately when they're triggered -- the word "immediately" doesn't have any additional rules effect. Further, there are lots of abilities that are regularly used before Gunner even though they resolve at the same time and Gunner says "immediately". If Gunner has to resolve first, then the following staple combos (and maybe more) would not be possible:

• Miss, get a TL from Fire Control System, then make a second attack with Gunner and spend the target lock.
• Miss, get a TL + focus from Bossk (crew), then make a second attack with Gunner and spend the TL/focus.
• Miss, deal damage with Darth Vader (crew), then make a second attack with Gunner.

Darth Vader (crew) comes up again, and this time he's an explicit example in the FAQ of resolving a different ability (Darth Vader) before the "immediate" ability of Gunner.

Conclusion:

My read is that TLT-miss-hit-Gunner is currently allowed, but I wouldn't be surprised if they update the FAQ again to explicitly disallow it (though I kinda like it as is, I think). I'd definitely appreciate them addressing this combo one way or the other in the FAQ.

Am I missing anything?

Nope, seems like an accurate summation.

The problem here is that many people are misinterpreting the use of word IMMEDIATELY.

“After you perform an attack that
does not hit, you may immediately
perform a primary weapon
attack.” FAQ

The highlighted statement does does NOT mean you have to use this ability before all others. It DOES mean that you may only use this ability during the described window. If you do something to change that window, then you can't use the upgrade ability.

The window, in this case, is after you perform an attack that does not hit. When you have the initiative, may choose the order of your abilities that activate in this window.

If you choose to activate Gunner in the window created after missing your first TLT attack. Then you will not be allowed to perform the second TLT attack.

"When Gunner is used to perform a primary weapon
attack, any additional attacks (such as from Cluster
Missiles) are forfeited." FAQ

If you choose not to activate Gunner during the window created by missing your first TLT attack, then you are able to begin the SECOND TLT attack. This attack creates a new window. If this attack hits you are unable to use Gunner because the window is now "After an attack that does hit" and you can only use abilities that trigger during that game state.

"Relevant rules text:

...

Rules Reference: "If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative chooses which of his abilities to resolve and resolves them in the order of his choosing. Then the opposing player does the same for his own abilities." " From original post

The player with initiative chooses the order in which to resolve his abilities first. As he activates one ability, it may have an affect on other abilities. It may even go so far as to block other abilities. When he has resolved all the abilities he is able to, it then becomes the other players turn to resolve their abilities. Then the window is closed, and the next attack begins.

In the case of TLTs. If you choose not to activate gunner, then the other player has the opportunity to resolve their abilities. When they are done, you may begin the second attack from TLT. The second attack is a new Trigger Event and creates a new window. In this new window you must meet the prerequisites, and be within any restrictions, to activate an ability. In the case of Gunner, if the second TLT attack hits, you do not meet the prerequisite of “After you perform an attack that
does not hit..." and can not use Gunner.

When an ability has specific timing, you can only us it when prescribed. It does not carry over other phases. TLT is two separate attacks. When you begin the second attack, you lose the opportunity to resolve anything that triggered off the first. The second attack from TLT is not an ability that triggers. It is a separate attack.

"When a card effect instructs you to perform an attack twice, it means: “After
you perform this attack for the first time, perform another attack against the
same target using this weapon.”" FAQ

Each Attack is made up of multiple steps, during those steps abilities can be triggered. After the attack, abilities can be triggered. All abilities that are triggered must be resolved before the second attack begins.

Gunner does not carry over to the second attack.

The problem I see with the OP's argument is that the definition for "immediately" is "without any intervening time or space."

If you do not activate Gunner after the first attack, then you forfeit the ability to choose to do so, because there is an intervening second attack with TLT or Cluster Missles - as well as your opponent's reactions.

As noted by Obi, the FAQ states that when Gunner is invoked, a second attack by TLT or Cluster Missles is forfeited.

I'm not sure there needs to be an update to the FAQ to address this, as Cluster Missles is essentially the same type of attack mechanism.

The argument is basically that Valen Rudor implies that the second TLT attack is a triggered event, as his response to it is dependent on initiative. When a player triggers two things at the same time, they decide the order.

So they would trigger both Gunner and the second TLT off the first one missing, thus allowing them to decide the order, and decide to use the second TLT first, then Gunner second.

if this is the intention, it fits with how other similar timing clashes play out, but makes Gunner a lot stronger in these cases.

This is the other side of the argument. You've both summarised one side.

The FAQ is currently unclear and needs amendment.

The problem I see with the OP's argument is that the definition for "immediately" is "without any intervening time or space."

If you do not activate Gunner after the first attack, then you forfeit the ability to choose to do so, because there is an intervening second attack with TLT or Cluster Missles - as well as your opponent's reactions.

Immediately doesn't actually mean a whole hell of a lot in X-Wing. It's already been established that effects without "immediately" in them can go before ones that do (Valen Rudor FAQ entry).

As noted by Obi, the FAQ states that when Gunner is invoked, a second attack by TLT or Cluster Missles is forfeited.

FAQ, pg. 12

Fairly sure Immediately is an earlier window than the absence thereof: immediately after happens before after.

Fairly sure Immediately is an earlier window than the absence thereof: immediately after happens before after.

If that were true, Gunner + FCS wouldn't be a particularly good combo as FCS would not trigger until after the shot from Gunner.

Fairly sure Immediately is an earlier window than the absence thereof: immediately after happens before after.

If that were true, Gunner + FCS wouldn't be a particularly good combo as FCS would not trigger until after the shot from Gunner.

This is, IMHO, the strongest argument in favor of the miss-hit-gunner combination.

IE., how can FCS trigger before the second gunner attack (if the player wants it to), but the second TLT shot cannot, given they both have the same trigger.

Fairly sure Immediately is an earlier window than the absence thereof: immediately after happens before after.

If that were true, Gunner + FCS wouldn't be a particularly good combo as FCS would not trigger until after the shot from Gunner.

Would that not be a price worth paying to stop the miss-hit-Gunner combo?

The problem I see with the OP's argument is that the definition for "immediately" is "without any intervening time or space."

If you do not activate Gunner after the first attack, then you forfeit the ability to choose to do so, because there is an intervening second attack with TLT or Cluster Missles - as well as your opponent's reactions.

Immediately doesn't actually mean a whole heck of a lot in X-Wing. It's already been established that effects without "immediately" in them can go before ones that do (Valen Rudor FAQ entry).

As noted by Obi, the FAQ states that when Gunner is invoked, a second attack by TLT or Cluster Missles is forfeited.

FAQ, pg. 12

"When Gunner is used to perform a primary weapon

attack, any additional attacks (such as from Cluster

Missiles) are forfeited."

I read that as saying that you only forfeit any further attacks at the point that you use Gunner. If you've already made the second attack there's nothing to forfeit.

I did not realize Gunner was included in the Valen Entry until I just read it again.

So I concede that this is a fair point that Gunner and Luke could be used to fire the primary after the 2nd TLT attack - as long as one of the 2 attacks missed.

If FFG decides against using Gunner this way with Clusters or TLT, then that would invalidate what it has written for Valen.

I think that everyone I have run into has played in the past that you either activate Gunner after a first miss or have to have both attacks miss to get a second chance.

So interesting twist based on the FAQ. This is not the first time FFG has clarified one thing to cause more confusion with another.

Fairly sure Immediately is an earlier window than the absence thereof: immediately after happens before after.

If that were true, Gunner + FCS wouldn't be a particularly good combo as FCS would not trigger until after the shot from Gunner.

Would that not be a price worth paying to stop the miss-hit-Gunner combo?

I don't know that it is.

I think I'd prefer FFG to just change attacks so that all of the triggers from an attack are completely resolved before moving on to the next attack. It would be easier to work out interactions. Initiative would still matter with abilities like Dengar's and Rudor's but not quite as much as it does now.

Fairly sure Immediately is an earlier window than the absence thereof: immediately after happens before after.

If that were true, Gunner + FCS wouldn't be a particularly good combo as FCS would not trigger until after the shot from Gunner.

This is, IMHO, the strongest argument in favor of the miss-hit-gunner combination.

IE., how can FCS trigger before the second gunner attack (if the player wants it to), but the second TLT shot cannot, given they both have the same trigger.

It's not that it cannot, it's that all three have the same trigger, so the player decides the order.

This is why TLT's second shot being a triggered effect and initiative-dependent is dumb and bad.

What this means:

1) Put Gunner on Kwing Miranda with TLT.

2) Fire first TLT with 2 dice to recover a shield - assuming it will miss the target.

3) Second TLT and Gunner both trigger.

4) Fire second TLT shot with 3 dice.

5) Fire Primary weapon with 2-3 dice, depending on range of the target.

Sounds like it makes her more dangerous if this works.

Fairly sure Immediately is an earlier window than the absence thereof: immediately after happens before after.

If that were true, Gunner + FCS wouldn't be a particularly good combo as FCS would not trigger until after the shot from Gunner.

Would that not be a price worth paying to stop the miss-hit-Gunner combo?

I don't know that it is.

I think I'd prefer FFG to just change attacks so that all of the triggers from an attack are completely resolved before moving on to the next attack. It would be easier to work out interactions. Initiative would still matter with abilities like Dengar's and Rudor's but not quite as much as it does now.

Yeah, that's basically how everyone thought it *did* work before the recent FAQ. Any new thing that triggers must fully resolve before you can return up to the level that triggered it (including triggers under triggers - any time a new thing triggers, it has to fully resolve, included any new nested effects, before you return to the point you split off)

Except, per the new FAQ, that's not how it works, anymore. But that just creates so many problems vs the fully-nested trigger, I can't imagine why FFG decided to change course on this. Maybe someone over there in their rules department really, really hated Valen Rudor or something and wasn't able to get him nerfed to their satisfaction during playtesting...

There's a lot of content here and I've tried to read it all and understand it... but just to clarify again (as I'm not sure it has been mentioned)....

What if the second attack on TLT fails? (unique attack, again, allows stress if you had a tactician on attack 2)...

Gunner triggers or not?

There's a lot of content here and I've tried to read it all and understand it... but just to clarify again (as I'm not sure it has been mentioned)....

What if the second attack on TLT fails? (unique attack, again, allows stress if you had a tactician on attack 2)...

Gunner triggers or not?

The problem with TLT's second attack being triggered by the first attack as well as Gunner being triggered by the first attack missing is that the second TLT attack is an ATTACK. Since both 'abilities' are triggered by he same event (the first TLT attack, and missed) the player can choose which one to resolve first. If Gunner resolves first the second attack never happens. If the Second attack happens Gunner is negated since there was a second attack, unless it missed, then Gunner can trigger again. The second attack happening changes the condition 'immediately after an attack misses'.

FCS works with Gunner, however, since it's not an attack and has not changed the triggering condition of Gunner.

At least that's how I see any new FAQ will cover this particular instance.

(Cluster missiles would also work the same)

Of course knowing my luck the next FAQ will go completely against my argument.

Immediately forces you to do it first.

I also don't see the point of TLT miss into gunner. Why not TLT hit, TLT miss, Gunner?

Immediately forces you to do it first.

No it does not.

Counterexample: The non-immediate Vader resolves prior to the immediate gunner.

If you choose not to activate Gunner during the window created by missing your first TLT attack, then you are able to begin the SECOND TLT attack. This attack creates a new window. If this attack hits you are unable to use Gunner because the window is now "After an attack that does hit" and you can only use abilities that trigger during that game state.

The point is that you do choose to activate Gunner on the first miss, but it's not the first thing that gets resolved. Using Valen Rudor as an example, it used to work like this (or I assume it did; it wasn't in the FAQ):

• TLT Attack 1
  • In response to Attack 1, Rudor takes an action
• TLT Attack 2
  • In response to Attack 2, Rudor takes an action

Now they made TLT Attack 2 a response to Attack 1, so if the TLT player has initiative it works like this:

• TLT Attack 1
  • In response to Attack 1, make TLT Attack 2
    • In response to Attack 2, Rudor takes an action
  • In response to Attack 1, Rudor takes an action

And if the Rudor player has initiative, it works like this:

• TLT Attack 1
  • In response to Attack 1, Rudor takes an action
  • In response to Attack 1, make TLT Attack 2
    • In response to Attack 2, Rudor takes an action

Those two orderings are based on initiative. But if both abilities are controlled by the same player you can choose the order. So simply replace "Rudor takes an action" with "make Gunner attack" and choose the first ordering option:

• TLT Attack 1 (miss)
  • In response to Attack 1, make TLT Attack 2
  • In response to Attack 1, make Gunner attack

The problem with TLT's second attack being triggered by the first attack as well as Gunner being triggered by the first attack missing is that the second TLT attack is an ATTACK.

This is something that's come up a few times. Is an attack special in some way that cancels any abilities that haven't resolved yet? Or is the Gunner ability specifically something that gets canceled by an intervening attack? We already have a way for there to be an attack in between (albeit from the other player) in a way that I don't think is controversial: Dengar. If the Dengar player has initiative, the sequence would go:

• Attack Dengar and miss
  • In response to the attack, Dengar attacks
  • In response to the (original) attack, make Gunner attack

So maybe there's just one ability (Gunner) that gets canceled only if a specific ship (you) makes another attack before resolving it. I wouldn't be surprised if that's RAI, but if so it should really be clarified.

Immediately forces you to do it first.

I also don't see the point of TLT miss into gunner. Why not TLT hit, TLT miss, Gunner?

As for hit-miss-Gunner: that's great if you can manage it, and it definitely works. But sometimes the dice give you a miss on your first shot. The question is: in that situation can you trigger Gunner off your first miss and still hope for a TLT hit and then Gunner?

No you can't because Gunner specifically states you cannot attack again this round, and cannot is absolute.

I'm also failing to see any reference in the FAQ where you can miss the first TLT attack, hit with the second TLT attack, and then claim a Gunner attack for the missed first attack.

Because perform this attack twice is now an attack followed by an attack that triggers After you perform an attack, thus sharing the timing window of Gunner and you can now resolve them in an order of your choosing.

No you can't because Gunner specifically states you cannot attack again this round, and cannot is absolute.

I'm also failing to see any reference in the FAQ where you can miss the first TLT attack, hit with the second TLT attack, and then claim a Gunner attack for the missed first attack.

Look at the Valen Rudor FAQ entry. His ability only triggers before TLT or Gunner if he has inititiave. That establishes that the second attack from TLT is handled the same way that offer effects are.