I hate to say it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope.

Have you met the Skywalker family?

I like that a majority of people's complaints about the new movie are ones that could apply to the originals in the exact same way.

I guess if you don't listen to any of the many reasons why they're nothing alike, sure. Luke was a hero that came to the show with a particular skill set, received training, still lost and still needed rescuing. Rey had never seen a force power, never shot a gun, never flew a ship, never swung a light saber, but did all of that better than experts and (of course) rescued herself.

TFA was like watching a cartoon made for little children, that is exactly how most of them deal with heroes. The hero will be a child who tries hard and is better than everyone else at everything because they're the hero and because children can of course beat expert adults because that is what the children watching the show want to believe. Rey was like the kid from Home Alone, only no one was laughing.

Luke came to the show with a particular skill set... Yes, he could fly a T-16(?) and was probably a decent farmer. X-Wings, which fly in SPACE, are not T-16's. That's like saying you could fly an F-22 in combat because you were good at flying a Cessna. We know nothing of his preparation for using Imperial weapons against Storm Troopers. We know he blocked a laser with the light saber on his second try. We know he was a fantastic gunner on the Falcon's turrets his first time in combat. Luke does a lot of stuff really well for a kid straight off of the farm because... Well, reasons.

Don't even get me started on Annakin...

I think it's highly likely Rey has had a LOT more training than either one of them by the time we met her, but she doesn't remember the training itself (just the "muscle memory" so to speak). If she hasn't and she's just as inexperienced as them... I still haven't seen her do much that's outside the realm of the other two.

Maybe you just don't like it when girls are good at stuff?

Also... Mind tricking a storm trooper? That's not particularly in depth Jedi stuff. The First Order has them all mind tricked already.

Obi-wan didn't die, he just used a hologram to fake his ghost. Faking your death is easy, all Darth maul :-)

Also... Mind tricking a storm trooper? That's not particularly in depth Jedi stuff. The First Order has them all mind tricked already.

From what we've seen of the mental acumen of Stormtroopers in all the movies, I'm pretty confident I could mind trick one.

Luke Skywalker was an ace pilot that saved Wedge and Biggs from trouble after growing up in a farm but one time we see him play with a model of a ship so it's assumed he can pilot?

Luke Skywalker took down more Stormies than Han on the Death Star, but we saw him one time with a rifle on the farm (which he never shot)

Luke Skywalker didn't know what the force was at all when he first grabbed his lightsaber in Hoth, honestly did not have that concept.

Han and Luke actually have an equal number of kills on the Death Star. Han killed two at Mos Eisley. Luke saves Biggs in the beginning of the space battle. Then Wedge saves Luke, then Han saves Luke after Biggs dies a fiery death being blown apart by Vader who achieved one mission Ace with 6 kills in the space battle.

It is criminal that Lucas' wife decided to cut the Biggs conversation with Luke on Tatooine. I agree it isn't necessary in the scope of the original film, but would be well served to demonstrate that Luke was an experience pilot, respected by Biggs, and Biggs was prepping him to join the Rebellion. Luke came back to his blue milk to plead with Uncle Owen to go to the academy this year because of his renewed interest, sparked by Biggs. So yes, it appears that Luke starts flying as a complete novice. Another scene that was cut, but at least was re-added was Biggs defending Luke to his commander. At least it attempts to give a reason for Luke being in the ship. Also Obi Wan said 'I hear you've become quite a good pilot yourself.'

As far as Rey goes, I grew up next to an Air Force base. My two best friends fathers were both pilots. I wore one of their helmets to school for Halloween. Did that qualify me to jump into an F-15 and fly it like Maverick? Given that she was a scavenger of an ancient ship graveyard, I'd say it was a good bet there were plenty of helmets laying around.

Luke didn't know what the force was, at all, when he first grabbed his lightsaber on Hoth? HOw could that be since Obi Wan explained it to him on the Millennium Falcon. When Obi Wan coaxes him through the force to turn off his targeting computer, to let go, probably aiding Luke, as he had foreshadowed to Vader that he would become more powerful than he could possibly imagine. Yet for all that, and for whatever he may have uncovered with his new found Rebel contacts in the two years between the films, and whatever practice he may have conducted on his own; being that he in a life or death situation, Luke still struggled to get his ligthsaber out of the snow. Where as Rey just whips that thing right out the snow pulling it away from Ren, who was also pulling it. Luke spent weeks with Yoda building up his force connection, including his failure at the cave, and still Yoda didn't want him to face Vader. The only reason he is alive, as I said earlier, was because Vader wanted to capture him, so he carried him through the fight.

Han and Luke actually have an equal number of kills on the Death Star. Han killed two at Mos Eisley. Luke saves Biggs in the beginning of the space battle. Then Wedge saves Luke, then Han saves Luke after Biggs dies a fiery death being blown apart by Vader who achieved one mission Ace with 6 kills in the space battle.

Technically Luke wins this battle as he blows up the Death Star killing millions. Nobody has as many exp pts as Luke does...

~D

Luke Skywalker was an ace pilot that saved Wedge and Biggs from trouble after growing up in a farm but one time we see him play with a model of a ship so it's assumed he can pilot?

Luke Skywalker took down more Stormies than Han on the Death Star, but we saw him one time with a rifle on the farm (which he never shot)

Luke Skywalker didn't know what the force was at all when he first grabbed his lightsaber in Hoth, honestly did not have that concept.

It is criminal that Lucas' wife decided to cut the Biggs conversation with Luke on Tatooine. I agree it isn't necessary in the scope of the original film, but would be well served to demonstrate that Luke was an experience pilot, respected by Biggs, and Biggs was prepping him to join the Rebellion. Luke came back to his blue milk to plead with Uncle Owen to go to the academy this year because of his renewed interest, sparked by Biggs. So yes, it appears that Luke starts flying as a complete novice. Another scene that was cut, but at least was re-added was Biggs defending Luke to his commander. At least it attempts to give a reason for Luke being in the ship. Also Obi Wan said 'I hear you've become quite a good pilot yourself.'

So, long story short:

Luke and Rey are young people stuck on their respective desert planets. We don't know much about either's past, only that they seem not to get much excitement.

We are told in ANH that Luke is a great pilot.

We are shown in TFA that Rey is a great pilot.

I know which one of those I personally consider better storytelling, but I'll let everyone judge for themselves.

I hate to say it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope.

Have you met the Skywalker family?

I like that a majority of people's complaints about the new movie are ones that could apply to the originals in the exact same way.

I guess if you don't listen to any of the many reasons why they're nothing alike, sure. Luke was a hero that came to the show with a particular skill set, received training, still lost and still needed rescuing. Rey had never seen a force power, never shot a gun, never flew a ship, never swung a light saber, but did all of that better than experts and (of course) rescued herself.

TFA was like watching a cartoon made for little children, that is exactly how most of them deal with heroes. The hero will be a child who tries hard and is better than everyone else at everything because they're the hero and because children can of course beat expert adults because that is what the children watching the show want to believe. Rey was like the kid from Home Alone, only no one was laughing.

Luke came to the show with a particular skill set... Yes, he could fly a T-16(?) and was probably a decent farmer. X-Wings, which fly in SPACE, are not T-16's. That's like saying you could fly an F-22 in combat because you were good at flying a Cessna. We know nothing of his preparation for using Imperial weapons against Storm Troopers. We know he blocked a laser with the light saber on his second try. We know he was a fantastic gunner on the Falcon's turrets his first time in combat. Luke does a lot of stuff really well for a kid straight off of the farm because... Well, reasons.

Don't even get me started on Annakin...

I think it's highly likely Rey has had a LOT more training than either one of them by the time we met her, but she doesn't remember the training itself (just the "muscle memory" so to speak). If she hasn't and she's just as inexperienced as them... I still haven't seen her do much that's outside the realm of the other two.

Maybe you just don't like it when girls are good at stuff?

Ah yes it all comes out. YOu just hate it because it's a giiiiirl. The easy deflection when there is no defense. No I hate it because it was stupid. Because you are asked to assume things that are never shown. It's horrible writing. And Rey is just the tip of the I hate TFA iceberg. I also hated Kylo Ren. The Starkiller base was the worst kind of 'mine is bigger than yours'. I hate it because it was a reboot of the first movie with none of the first movie's magic.

Its not about her being a female. I loved Sarah Conner, Ellen Ripley, Zoe Washburn. These were good female characters. As much as I hate Rebels, Hera is the only good character, I liked Padme's portrayal in the Clone Wars cartoon, as well as the short time we got Aayla Secura, who is one of my favorite Jedi. And I have a 18" statue of Sideshow Collectibles' Darth Talon in a curio cabinet in my living room.

Luke Skywalker was an ace pilot that saved Wedge and Biggs from trouble after growing up in a farm but one time we see him play with a model of a ship so it's assumed he can pilot?

Luke Skywalker took down more Stormies than Han on the Death Star, but we saw him one time with a rifle on the farm (which he never shot)

Luke Skywalker didn't know what the force was at all when he first grabbed his lightsaber in Hoth, honestly did not have that concept.

It is criminal that Lucas' wife decided to cut the Biggs conversation with Luke on Tatooine. I agree it isn't necessary in the scope of the original film, but would be well served to demonstrate that Luke was an experience pilot, respected by Biggs, and Biggs was prepping him to join the Rebellion. Luke came back to his blue milk to plead with Uncle Owen to go to the academy this year because of his renewed interest, sparked by Biggs. So yes, it appears that Luke starts flying as a complete novice. Another scene that was cut, but at least was re-added was Biggs defending Luke to his commander. At least it attempts to give a reason for Luke being in the ship. Also Obi Wan said 'I hear you've become quite a good pilot yourself.'

So, long story short:

Luke and Rey are young people stuck on their respective desert planets. We don't know much about either's past, only that they seem not to get much excitement.

We are told in ANH that Luke is a great pilot.

We are shown in TFA that Rey is a great pilot.

I know which one of those I personally consider better storytelling, but I'll let everyone judge for themselves.

Yes it's right up there with Lil'Annie getting into the Naboo fighter and blowing up the Trade federation ship. The only difference, because hes a boy, people say, "that was really stupid and suspension of disbelief shattering." Where as with Rey, because she's a girl, they say, Awwwww, what a great pilot. Girlz rule.

Let me add, back in Star Wars days, it costs a crap ton of money to do models and effects. Now CGI is far less expensive, and get the kind of overuse we see in many movies, including TFA.

Han and Luke actually have an equal number of kills on the Death Star. Han killed two at Mos Eisley. Luke saves Biggs in the beginning of the space battle. Then Wedge saves Luke, then Han saves Luke after Biggs dies a fiery death being blown apart by Vader who achieved one mission Ace with 6 kills in the space battle.

Technically Luke wins this battle as he blows up the Death Star killing millions. Nobody has as many exp pts as Luke does...

~D

No wonder he became so good at the force. He just needed a montage to give him time to spend them.

Soooo...

Obi and Greedo and the Inquisitor sets all look awesome! How about we knock this purposeless conversation (which is starting to get out of hand) off, and get back to the point of the thread?

C'mon guys, nobody is changing anyones minds here, you're just slowly getting more barbed in your attacks of one another's points.

Jacob

The difference isn't that Anakin is a boy and Rey is a girl, but that Anakin is 9 in the Phantom Menace and we are told for a fact that being this young and a slave, he had no opportunity, much less any experience, to fly any kind of spacecraft, only dinky Star Wars equivalents of racetrack cars and only ones that he built himself. We do not know that about neither Luke, nor Rey's past when we are introduced to their characters.

I just want to throw this out here.

The whole "Negating Dodge isn't as good as people think" thing.

Played a game today that this happened:

Verena w/ Cmd Card + Close Quarters on Luke = Dodge

Gaarkhan w/ Enrage: Charge + regular attack on Luke = 2 Dodge

Leia Battlefield Leadership w/ my own Luke = Evade to negate Leias Range and DODGE against my Luke.

Verena was at the end of the round, I had initiative next round with Gaarkhan and ended up getting the shots in with Leia/Luke. 5 rolls, 4 dodges. 3 of them in a row.

The whole time my enemies Luke had 1 HP left.

So yeah, there's that. Even ONE Dodge negate is very powerful. I also found it ironic that this happened the first day I've played skirmish since the Inq was previewed. And that it was against Luke, who the Inq, apparently, cant take on.

Cheers!

Negate Dodge is a great hate surge, I can't count how many times I've been crushed by a dodge, but with a negate dodge you have now made that "best roll ever" into a blank because it will not cancel any of your damage or your surges at all. You have forced an opponent to get a blank, and that is beautiful.

I just want to throw this out here.

The whole "Negating Dodge isn't as good as people think" thing.

Played a game today that this happened:

Verena w/ Cmd Card + Close Quarters on Luke = Dodge

Gaarkhan w/ Enrage: Charge + regular attack on Luke = 2 Dodge

Leia Battlefield Leadership w/ my own Luke = Evade to negate Leias Range and DODGE against my Luke.

Verena was at the end of the round, I had initiative next round with Gaarkhan and ended up getting the shots in with Leia/Luke. 5 rolls, 4 dodges. 3 of them in a row.

The whole time my enemies Luke had 1 HP left.

So yeah, there's that. Even ONE Dodge negate is very powerful. I also found it ironic that this happened the first day I've played skirmish since the Inq was previewed. And that it was against Luke, who the Inq, apparently, cant take on.

Cheers!

Yep, a dodge mitigation ability would be really helpful in that situation. But you know what? I can just as easily tell you about that time Luke got pinged to death by a bunch of stormtroopers after he rolled straight blanks the entire game. Whenever the discussion is "white dice is awesome, it makes your guys invincible", I can't help but wonder why it isn't "white dice is crap, it makes your guys defenceless". You have quite literally the same chance of getting either result.

The white die is the gambler's die. And like with any kind of gamble, your brain is wired to only remember the times it blew up in your face. That is why I consider any dodge mitigation abilities good and useful to have, but not 'ermargerd it's a killer combo'.

[star Wars is the same speech]

[star Wars is different speech]

I'll go top down:

I was counting Luke's Trooper kills, he hits more in the prison and then after Obi bit the dust.

You're referencing a cut scene to justify the movie. Let me reference some of the hour of scenes cut from TFA if I ever see it... Or we could take the movies for what they are and were when we saw them the first time and compare them that way? Because my stance comes from "Star Wars and TFA are very similar and your stated dislike seems to be present in both" which focuses purely on the movies and not any background information.

If I was referencing background information, I would counter your airforce based antidotal evidence with a book that states Rey spent countless hours in a Ywing's flight simulator program. So it would be if you went through flight school, did the simulations 100 times over for a military bomber and then flew a large cargo plane really well. ( The Falcon is not a jet plane by anyone's standards)

The helmet was like Luke's playing with the model of the t-16, it shows and interest and possibly a familiarity visually.

On Hoth, referencing only the movies, Luke knew the force was a thing. He Ben could speak to him in his head from it and tell a Stormtrooper what to do with it. He never saw it move anything, so how did he know it and had he moved anything before? The movie never says, so we move on.

The lightsaber stays in the snow for a bit when Kylo reaches for it, it's not an instant flight to her hand, at this point she's touched Kylo's mind and probably knows the force can do things like move a small object.

Finally, Rey beating Kylo vs Luke fighting Vader. You answered it yourself, Vader is a highly trained, battle worn Jedi that was the chosen one and known as one of the strongest Jedi in the late order. He beat Dooku, who was a veteran Jedi and swordsman. Vader was the best, and Luke got beat down from him even when Vader held back. Luke never trained with the lightsaber with Yoda, and carries it around a lot like Finn does.

Rey is shown to kick butt with a pole arm and as I stated, probably used it before, so she knows melee weapons. She gets her butt kicked by Kylo until something clicks visually that we don't know what it was but it was a moment they really played to and will probably be explained next movie. Then she kicks Kylo's butt. Kylo is strong in the force, but not trained like Vader, not honed. His Lightsaber is a visual nod to that, there's power there, it's scary, but not contained and not focused. It's wild. Rey also has power, and it's not focused, but it starts to come out in a big way at the end of the fight.

The difference isn't that Anakin is a boy and Rey is a girl, but that Anakin is 9 in the Phantom Menace and we are told for a fact that being this young and a slave, he had no opportunity, much less any experience, to fly any kind of spacecraft, only dinky Star Wars equivalents of racetrack cars and only ones that he built himself. We do not know that about neither Luke, nor Rey's past when we are introduced to their characters.

Anakin was a kid and the movie was blatantly made for children. Again, like Home Alone or most heroic children's cartoons with child heroes, children want to believe they're better at everything, even things they've never done before, than adults. The Force Awakens does not have that excuse to treat Rey the same as a child unless you believe women should be treated like children.

I can guarantee that if Rey was a man, all the people defending it, would be pissing all over the show for how badly written it was.

[star Wars is the same speech]

[star Wars is different speech]

I'll go top down:

I was counting Luke's Trooper kills, he hits more in the prison and then after Obi bit the dust.

Rey flat out says she's never shot a gun before. Luke being good with a gun we can assume is because he has shot one before. I know a bunch of farmers and guess what, they're all pretty good with guns and they aren't living under the threat of Tuskan Raider attacks or Jawa thieving or living near a town best described as a hive of scum and villainy. It would be stupid to think Luke wouldn't be good with a gun in a movie intended to have a Western feel.

So despite Rey having never shot a gun, she outshoots 3 "trained from birth" (so says Finn) first order troopers. Luke meanwhile, very likely being an expert with a gun, outshoot some troopers who very likely had little more training than a typical police officer at that point in the timeline, and who have never seen combat.

The difference isn't that Anakin is a boy and Rey is a girl, but that Anakin is 9 in the Phantom Menace and we are told for a fact that being this young and a slave, he had no opportunity, much less any experience, to fly any kind of spacecraft, only dinky Star Wars equivalents of racetrack cars and only ones that he built himself. We do not know that about neither Luke, nor Rey's past when we are introduced to their characters.

Anakin was a kid and the movie was blatantly made for children. Again, like Home Alone or most heroic children's cartoons with child heroes, children want to believe they're better at everything, even things they've never done before, than adults. The Force Awakens does not have that excuse to treat Rey the same as a child unless you believe women should be treated like children.

I can guarantee that if Rey was a man, all the people defending it, would be pissing all over the show for how badly written it was.

Oookay, so the discussion reached a point at which the logic is "if you liked The Force Awakens, you hate women".

I think it might be high time for me to back away slowly. Carry on good sir.

I just want to throw this out here.

The whole "Negating Dodge isn't as good as people think" thing.

Played a game today that this happened:

Verena w/ Cmd Card + Close Quarters on Luke = Dodge

Gaarkhan w/ Enrage: Charge + regular attack on Luke = 2 Dodge

Leia Battlefield Leadership w/ my own Luke = Evade to negate Leias Range and DODGE against my Luke.

Verena was at the end of the round, I had initiative next round with Gaarkhan and ended up getting the shots in with Leia/Luke. 5 rolls, 4 dodges. 3 of them in a row.

The whole time my enemies Luke had 1 HP left.

So yeah, there's that. Even ONE Dodge negate is very powerful. I also found it ironic that this happened the first day I've played skirmish since the Inq was previewed. And that it was against Luke, who the Inq, apparently, cant take on.

Cheers!

Yep, a dodge mitigation ability would be really helpful in that situation. But you know what? I can just as easily tell you about that time Luke got pinged to death by a bunch of stormtroopers after he rolled straight blanks the entire game. Whenever the discussion is "white dice is awesome, it makes your guys invincible", I can't help but wonder why it isn't "white dice is crap, it makes your guys defenceless". You have quite literally the same chance of getting either result.

The white die is the gambler's die. And like with any kind of gamble, your brain is wired to only remember the times it blew up in your face. That is why I consider any dodge mitigation abilities good and useful to have, but not 'ermargerd it's a killer combo'.

The white die does have a bit more randomness but it is better than the black die. The bigger the attack is the more this is true, you definitely want to be rolling a white vs. a 3 or 4 die attack than a black.

Against a typical storm trooper's 3 wound + surge a black defense is 2.33 wounds, white is also 2.33. As soon as you go higher than that or have surges for 2 wounds rather than 1, the white is usually better. Nexu can be a pain in the butt to kill sometimes because the white die and officers getting a reroll on top often make shooting them not worthwhile at all.

I'm gonna take a moment to talk about something I don't think people have discussed before: Greedo is good. In campaign he can target melee heroes with impunity, hits hard for his cost, isn't vulnerable to cleave or blast* (the heroes' beast means of clearing through enemies fast) and attacks if the put the effort in to kill him (unlike hired guns, outranging him is not a feasible option). In skirmish he's a 5 speed figure that can interact for just four points and I feel like the inquisitor is going to make 3 health figures (like hired guns, the obvious alternative to him) much less appealing.

*insofar as he's a 1 figure that has no reason to stick close to friendly units.

Edit: There's also the fact that you can stun a figure then Greedo is free to blast them.

I dismissed Greedo at first, but I'm warming up to him slowly. He definetly punches way above his weight class, but that comes at the price of requiring you to go after melee fighters or set up creative board positioning to stay out of sight of your target. Definetly a high-finesse piece.

Interestingly, he comes out sharing a wave with two very competent melee fighters. Hmm...

On the other Skywalker in TFA...

Ren can do impressive stuff with the Force. I don't buy that he's an impressive combatant otherwise, and I think this is where the argument that Rey is doing things that are not possible breaks down.

Luke didn't train with a LS with Yoda. In fact, Yoda doesn't train him to fight at all. Even Obi Wan didn't teach him anything more than self defense.

Luke embraced the dark side to finally defeat Vader (and immediately regretted it).

Luke beat the Emperor and the Sith in general by throwing his LS away.

The Knights of Ren killed off Luke's Jedi trainees. Luke was unable to defend them (or not present).

Ren can't construct a proper LS.

We can all agree on these points I think.

So here's a crackpot theory based on that... LS combat was NOT part of Luke's plan to train the next generation of Jedi. It fits with what we know of Luke Post Death Star II, it fits why Luke could not stop the Knights of Ren (defeating Kylo should be child's play for Luke), it fits why Ren has no training in LS construction...

How many Jedi has ren actually fought?

Sure he took down the jedi trainees but in that flashback he had the knights of ren backing him up and I don't recall seeing a trainee Jedi wielding a lightsaber.

As far as we know his "killing" the next generation of Jedi could have been him saying "hay snoke, here they are".

So lots of raw force potential but limited melee experience.

Finn on the other hand trained alongside TR8R and Rey is proficient with a staff, so both could be considered capable melee fighters.

How many Jedi has ren actually fought?

Sure he took down the jedi trainees but in that flashback he had the knights of ren backing him up and I don't recall seeing a trainee Jedi wielding a lightsaber.

As far as we know his "killing" the next generation of Jedi could have been him saying "hay snoke, here they are".

So lots of raw force potential but limited melee experience.

Finn on the other hand trained alongside TR8R and Rey is proficient with a staff, so both could be considered capable melee fighters.

I agree. And I think there's a possibility that the **Possible Spoilers** "flashback" of Kylo killing the trainees with the Knights of Ren behind him could actually be a flash-forward. It definitely looks like the person being killed is Constable Zuvio (hence why they were originally going to set him up as a character we might care about), and it could be Kylo and the Knights of Ren on Jakku, searching for Ren, or at least for information about her. **End Spoilers**

Kylo Ren is talented in the force, but I'm sure not technically well-trained, at least when it comes to lightsaber combat.