I had a similar reaction for having a purchasable lightsaber, but I guess it makes sense.

There are lots more lightsabers in the universe than Jedi at this point. Also doesn't make a lot of sense that Diala doesn't have one, Jedi can make them, hell even Ezra made his own gunsword.

As for anyone else wielding it... Well I guess it might be good on Loku, and considering he's easily the worst character that isn't a bad thing. Anyone else isn't going to want it.

You seem to assume that one gets up one day, realizes they can do Force stuff, and poof, they become a member of the Jedi Order and get instinctive knowledge about building what we are told is one of the most sophisticated weapons in the galaxy and proceed to do so with parts from an old refrigerator. "The Force doesn't work like that!"

So, what you're saying is you haven't seen The Force Awakens. Because that is pretty much the plot. Woman has the force, gets drawn to a light saber, outshoots a bunch of elite storm troopers despite never having fired a gun, masters multiple advanced force techniques the first time she tries despite knowing nothing of the force, overpowers a highly trained Sith and beats him up with the light saber she's never had any training for.

Welcome to the new and "improved" Star Wars.

So, what you are saying is you did not understand The Force Awakens.

First of all, Kylo Ren is neither a Sith, nor highly trained. He's a kid that has some inherent potential, got some basic instruction and wound up with delusions of grandeur. He is in fact called out in the movie on not finishing his training. He has had barely any lightsaber practice, as evidenced by his fighting "style" in the duel you are referring to. He was wildly swinging his Satan laser sword like a baseball bat. None of the three people involved in that duel had any experience with lightsaber fencing and therefore had pretty equal chances, and you could see that in the way they moved. Which is what makes that scene great. This is not the finesse jump around space ninja prequel stuff. This is a bunch of untrained angry people in a brutal brawl that happens to involve lazor swords, because that's what they had on hand.

Other than that, everything that happens with Rey makes complete sense if you make the effort to think about it. It's in the title. Up to this point, in all the previous movies, we saw people learning to use the Force as a skill. It was almost like a science, a physical action and reaction thing that, if you had the necessary prerequisite, simply required practice. I do this and that, the thing moves through the air, that's how it works.

Remember when Obi-Wan was first telling Luke about the Force in ANH? The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. It's an energy field, it can be manipulated. You manipulate it, and you do the stuff, and that's that.

But then Luke asks: You mean it controls your actions?

And Kenobi responds: Partially. But it also obeys your commands.

The Force obeys the commands of its user. By using the Force, you bend the energy field to your will. But it also influences your actions partially. Not by much. Why not by much? Because it slumbers.

Fast forward 34 years into the future and Supreme Leader Snoke states: There's been an awakening. Have you felt it? It's a tiny line that's deliberately hidden in the dialogue to make you assume he means that Rey has "awoken" into being a Force-sensitive. But that's not what he means. He means the Force itself. It has awoken and became a living, sentient being, a higher power in the universe that can exert its influence on the material world. It's what people in the middle ages called "Providence". "The Force Awakens" isn't a catchy metaphor of a title. It's literal. It's what happens, turning the entire cosmology of Star Wars universe on its head. The rules of "using the Force" have changed. The proportions in the push-and-pull between the Force and Force User changed. It now controls your actions to larger extent than just "partially".

Rey does not use the Force do all the things you listed. The Force itself does it through her, because it's necessary for some grander purpose we do not know yet,

Remember when the lightsaber lands in the snow during the duel at the end? Kylo Ren tries to use the Force to pick it up. But he can't. And he's visibly shocked by that fact. Because he should just telekinesis that thing right up to his hand. That's how it's always worked. You do a specific action, and the reaction is the object flying into your hand. No ifs or buts. But it no longer works that way. The Force itself has decided that he is not fit for that to happen. The Force makes a conscious decision to choose Rey, and the lightsaber flies into her hand. And she's just as visibly shocked by that as Kylo Ren. You can see it on her face. She didn't expect that to happen, because she's not the one doing it.

Anyway, rant over, I'm spent for the night. TL;DR: In Soviet Russia, Force uses you.

Don, I often like your posts, but you are reading far to much into the bad writing. Rey does things because the clunky plot requires it. Abrams proves he's no better than Lucas in that regard. Even if he didn't write it, he didn't reject it and directed it as written. As Obi Wan says after tutoring Luke, "you've taken your first step into a larger world." It doesn't mean Luke could suddenly beat Obi Wan. He darn sure couldn't beat Darth Vader on Bespin, even after spending time with Yoda. Vader smacked him around with impunity. The only reason Luke survived was because Vader desired to capture him. Kylo was a force user who had beaten other force users. Whether or not he complete his training is irrelevant. He had far more training than she did. Having the "A wizard did it" as raison d'être actually causes more damage to the movie, in my opinion. Abrams was lazy. He could have created much more compelling ways to move Rey along, but he choose ways that were illogical, and nonsensical. It was no better than the way Lucas forced Qui Gon and Obi Wan through Ota Gunga and to Tatooine, so they could collect their wacky cast of characters. The whole concept runs counter to basic script writing. The hero should have agency. They should move themselves forward because they are the hero. Heroes that are along for the ride are not compelling, which is why in his short portrayal, Po and Finn were much more relatable characters.

I don't think we know enough about Rey yet to assume she is a straight novice.

I also don't think we know enough about Ren to assume he has real skill with a LS. He obviously has some with the Force. We do know he killed some Force users. For all we know they were four years old though, or maybe chose not to defend themselves (the last time we saw their master he had thrown away his weapon).

I hate to say it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope. A trope I really don't like. He did it in the star trek reboot too. In star trek tos, Kirk was portrayed as a great captain, with natural skill, but he spent years honing his skills and was about mid thirties with years of experience before being given command. In the reboot, a nihilistic self centered loner manages to become a good commander and leader because reasons and is given command if the flagship of the federation right out of school because that was what the script said.

It was a fun ride sure, but...ultimately it was unsatisfying. TFA was the same way. I want it to be good but the farther I get from the excitement of first seeing it, the more it seems hollow. I like rey's character but the magically good at everything shtick makes me less than pleased. Why not have the father soon confrontation add everyone is escaping in the snow. "You go, I'll hold him off." Give Han a good heroic ending, so the deus ex machina. Bah, that's all, I'm out.

I had a similar reaction for having a purchasable lightsaber, but I guess it makes sense.

There are lots more lightsabers in the universe than Jedi at this point. Also doesn't make a lot of sense that Diala doesn't have one, Jedi can make them, hell even Ezra made his own gunsword.

As for anyone else wielding it... Well I guess it might be good on Loku, and considering he's easily the worst character that isn't a bad thing. Anyone else isn't going to want it.

Whaaaaaaaaat. Lay off the death sticks dude, Loku is the heroes' MVP. Sure he doesn't hit that hard on his own, but he makes the entire team hit harder. The gun in his hands isn't his weapon, his teammates are his weapon (especially ones like Biv, Fenn and Gaarkhan, who can reliably position themselves to hit his target with multiple attacks per activation). A mark from Loku (which only costs a strain) makes the IP's big scary beatsticks go down at least one attack sooner (two or three for the really big guns with tons of HP like Vader and AT-STs), and as we all know, action economy is everything in this game.

You wanna talk worst character, it's Jyn by a mile. (At least out of the core set. I haven't played enough with/against Verena or the engineer chick from Twin Shadows to know if they're even worse.) Nifty ability she's got; too bad it can be completely neutralized by any halfway competent IP.

"Oh, you lined up an overwatch shot against Fett? Cool story bro, I'll just move this trooper in between them from out of her line of sight before he goes."

I hate top day it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope. A trope I really don't like. He did it in the star trek reboot too. In star trek tos, Kirk was portrayed as a great captain, with natural skill, but he spent years honing his skills and was about mid thirties with years of experience before being given command. In the reboot, a nihilistic self centered loner manages to become a good commander and leader because reasons and is given command if the flagship of the federation right out of school because that was what the script said.

It was a fun ride sure, but...ultimately it was unsatisfying. TFA was the same way. I want it to be good but the farther I get from the excitement of first seeing it, the more it seems hollow. I like rey's character but the magically good at everything shtick makes me less than pleased. Why not have the father soon confrontation add everyone is escaping in the snow. "You go, I'll hold him off." Give Han a good heroic ending, so the deus ex machina. Bah, that's all, I'm out.

I hated what Abrams did to Kirk. It was vile. Nicolas Meyer had never seen Star Trek before, but he had the decency to go through every episode before choosing Space Seed on which to base his epic Star Trek The Wrath of Kahn. Meyer got Kirk right in every way, from the arrogance to the brilliance. Abrams got everything about Kirk wrong. It was like Abrams looked at the top 50 reason why Kirk is better than Picard list that was bouncing around the early internet and decided that is what Kirk was. Not only that but his process for bring all these cadets together to form the bridge crew was laughable to anyone with a modicum of knowledge on how a Military organization functions.

I hate to say it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope.

Have you met the Skywalker family?

I hate to say it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope.

Have you met the Skywalker family?

I like that a majority of people's complaints about the new movie are ones that could apply to the originals in the exact same way.

I had a similar reaction for having a purchasable lightsaber, but I guess it makes sense.

There are lots more lightsabers in the universe than Jedi at this point. Also doesn't make a lot of sense that Diala doesn't have one, Jedi can make them, hell even Ezra made his own gunsword.

As for anyone else wielding it... Well I guess it might be good on Loku, and considering he's easily the worst character that isn't a bad thing. Anyone else isn't going to want it.

You wanna talk worst character, it's Jyn by a mile. (At least out of the core set. I haven't played enough with/against Verena or the engineer chick from Twin Shadows to know if they're even worse.) Nifty ability she's got; too bad it can be completely neutralized by any halfway competent IP.

"Oh, you lined up an overwatch shot against Fett? Cool story bro, I'll just move this trooper in between them from out of her line of sight before he goes."

I like Jyn. Her extra shot ability is situational, but so is a lot of other hero abilities. I think her biggest strenght are all those movement skills she can pick up - move when you're shot, move after you shoot and hit, move after you shoot regardless of hitting... Properly built and positioned, Jyn almost never has to take movement actions, which is a tremendous boon for the action economy you mentioned.

If I had to choose a "worst hero", It would have to be Saska. We never figured her out in the campaign she was part of and we felt she dragged the entire team down. But then again, I am certain there is someone else here who could go "Ur drunk go home, Saska is gr8, it's XXX that is the worst", and that in itself speaks to the strenght of the game design in my opinion.

I hate to say it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope. A trope I really don't like. He did it in the star trek reboot too. In star trek tos, Kirk was portrayed as a great captain, with natural skill, but he spent years honing his skills and was about mid thirties with years of experience before being given command. In the reboot, a nihilistic self centered loner manages to become a good commander and leader because reasons and is given command if the flagship of the federation right out of school because that was what the script said.

Star Trek discussion on a Star Wars board feels like gross offtopic, but I think you might have seen a different version of the reboot than was shown in cinemas. He never got command of the ship right of school. I'm not even sure he ever finished school. What I distinctly remember is him stowaway in the ship and go pester the captain, who then gave him a kick because he was fed up with his antics. He only assumed command when the captain was out and apparently there wasn't anyone else to pick up the job, which I admit was slightly deus ex machina, but it was kinda sorta needed for you know, the movie to happen. I liked what they did with Kirk in the reboot, and it was necessary to shake the character up a bit, similar to Spock. The original characters were too one-dimensional to fit into modern cinema, because times and storytelling conventions change over the decades.

Besides, it's not like TOS Kirk wasn't a self-centred ****** that couldn't recognize authority. He basically spent most of his time flying around and showing Starfleet where they can stick that Prime Directive of theirs.

Don, I often like your posts, but you are reading far to much into the bad writing.

That is most certainly possible. However, with that university degree in literature studies, I feel qualified to do so and will continue doing so just to make the **** thing worth anything

I still think I'm at least partailly correct though and the writing wasn't as bad as many people say taking it at face value. Star Wars has a long standing tradition of not saying everything out loud and clear and leaving you to figure stuff for yourself when it comes to the more spiritual and cosmological side of things, and I think Force Awakens dials that to 11 because Abrams loves that sort of stuff. You are of course free to disagree with my ideas, as I imagine many would, and I won't continue trying to convince you. In all honesty, we'll see how it pans out - TBF we'll be able to tell who's more right only once ep9 hits the cinemas.

Okay everyone, lets go over this again and now say it with me one more time...

"A lightsaber does not make one a Jedi..."

To that point, neither does using the Force.

Simply put, what makes you a Jedi is getting inducted into the Jedi Order by another member. Same with Sith.

This is what enables you to have a bunch of Force Users on both sides despite the official line being "Luke is the last Jedi" and "The Rule of Two is in effect". It's a bit of a cop out wrapped in creative book keeping with a side of rules lawyering, but that's how it works now in the franchise (and in fact was the same with the old EU, there was just a bit less Force Users running around in the more mainstream Rebellion Era material, because unlike now, Rebellion Era wasn't the focus) which is why any complaints along the lines "Diala can't be a Jedi because Luke is the last Jedi and that offends me" or "Inquisitors are dumb because only Palpatine and Vader were Sith" are in fact moot.

TFA.... Almost convinced myself that movie didn't happen, just like Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. I beat this dead horse in other forums, so I'll only make one comment here. Several people have stated that Kylo Ren's abilities (or lack thereof) are limited due to his incomplete training, youth, impetuousness, etc. This completely ignores two factors:

1.) Every piece of promotional content for TFA references Ren as being 'extremely powerful,' 'terrifying', and such. They obviously wanted him to come off as being very powerful, which doesn't make sense when he is defeated by a couple of noobs (bowcaster wound is a lame excuse, IMO). He does things which no other force user has been shown to do, such as stopping blaster bolts indefinitely in mid-flight. He's meant to be powerful, they just sucked at making that consistent and coherent. There was no subliminal meaning behind his character, he was written one-dimensionally and predictably, he just wasn't a very good character.

2.) Kylo Ren is 'powerful' enough to kill Luke's students who were also 'incompletely trained', eradicating the next generation of Jedi a la Vader. He is nicknamed 'the Jedi Killer'. He is viewed as a threat to Luke. The intention was for him to be powerful. They just needed Rey to be more powerful, so they suddenly made him less powerful.

Seriously, read some of the interviews with Abrams and Kasdan. They admit that they made Luke go into exile so that there could be more of a focus on their main characters rather than Luke (not because that was the story, but so they wouldn't have to deal with him while they told their story). They made Ren's lightsaber 'crackle with energy' because they wanted him to appear unstable (not for any story purpose, only to 'look cool'). They made Ren's helmet to be 'a nod to Vader's'(not because he wanted to hide his identity or had trouble breathing, actually necessitating a mask). Everything they did was just as superficial as it appears, and they did a very poor job IMO of providing any good justification for their choices in-universe.

I had a similar reaction for having a purchasable lightsaber, but I guess it makes sense.

There are lots more lightsabers in the universe than Jedi at this point. Also doesn't make a lot of sense that Diala doesn't have one, Jedi can make them, hell even Ezra made his own gunsword.

As for anyone else wielding it... Well I guess it might be good on Loku, and considering he's easily the worst character that isn't a bad thing. Anyone else isn't going to want it.

You wanna talk worst character, it's Jyn by a mile. (At least out of the core set. I haven't played enough with/against Verena or the engineer chick from Twin Shadows to know if they're even worse.) Nifty ability she's got; too bad it can be completely neutralized by any halfway competent IP.

"Oh, you lined up an overwatch shot against Fett? Cool story bro, I'll just move this trooper in between them from out of her line of sight before he goes."

I like Jyn. Her extra shot ability is situational, but so is a lot of other hero abilities. I think her biggest strenght are all those movement skills she can pick up - move when you're shot, move after you shoot and hit, move after you shoot regardless of hitting... Properly built and positioned, Jyn almost never has to take movement actions, which is a tremendous boon for the action economy you mentioned.

If I had to choose a "worst hero", It would have to be Saska. We never figured her out in the campaign she was part of and we felt she dragged the entire team down. But then again, I am certain there is someone else here who could go "Ur drunk go home, Saska is gr8, it's XXX that is the worst", and that in itself speaks to the strenght of the game design in my opinion.

Exactly it's the movement which makes her great. I read lot's of people argue that Gunslinger is her best ability, but I think Sidewinder is awesome too. With two shots you're getting 4-6 spaces worth of movement that ignores movement restrictions (well only partly but you know what I mean). With a Quickdraw that is 3 attacks and up to 9 points of movement in one round. That's awesome. You're right she will not always be able to pull that off. BUt in the same way a good Imperial Player can negate some of your Quick Draws, Jyn's player can ensure that she get's to shoot by careful positioning.

I agree there are better characters, mostly because there more versatile (Diala, Fenn). But since because of round restrictions movement is often key it's awesome to have a character which can move and attack at the same time.

But Don is right, I've read a lot about people claiming this character is good and this one is awesome but except for some exceptions (again I'm looking at Fenn and Diala) there doesn't seem to be a consensus, which is great.

I hate to say it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope.

Have you met the Skywalker family?

I like that a majority of people's complaints about the new movie are ones that could apply to the originals in the exact same way.

I guess if you don't listen to any of the many reasons why they're nothing alike, sure. Luke was a hero that came to the show with a particular skill set, received training, still lost and still needed rescuing. Rey had never seen a force power, never shot a gun, never flew a ship, never swung a light saber, but did all of that better than experts and (of course) rescued herself.

TFA was like watching a cartoon made for little children, that is exactly how most of them deal with heroes. The hero will be a child who tries hard and is better than everyone else at everything because they're the hero and because children can of course beat expert adults because that is what the children watching the show want to believe. Rey was like the kid from Home Alone, only no one was laughing.

I hate to say it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope. A trope I really don't like. He did it in the star trek reboot too. In star trek tos, Kirk was portrayed as a great captain, with natural skill, but he spent years honing his skills and was about mid thirties with years of experience before being given command. In the reboot, a nihilistic self centered loner manages to become a good commander and leader because reasons and is given command if the flagship of the federation right out of school because that was what the script said.

Star Trek discussion on a Star Wars board feels like gross offtopic, but I think you might have seen a different version of the reboot than was shown in cinemas. He never got command of the ship right of school. I'm not even sure he ever finished school. What I distinctly remember is him stowaway in the ship and go pester the captain, who then gave him a kick because he was fed up with his antics. He only assumed command when the captain was out and apparently there wasn't anyone else to pick up the job, which I admit was slightly deus ex machina, but it was kinda sorta needed for you know, the movie to happen. I liked what they did with Kirk in the reboot, and it was necessary to shake the character up a bit, similar to Spock. The original characters were too one-dimensional to fit into modern cinema, because times and storytelling conventions change over the decades.

Besides, it's not like TOS Kirk wasn't a self-centred ****** that couldn't recognize authority. He basically spent most of his time flying around and showing Starfleet where they can stick that Prime Directive of theirs.

Star Trek is off topic, but we are discussing JJ Abrams. It wasn't really Deus ex, it was just silly. As a person who retired from U.S. Navy after 20 years, let me tell you the people who procede taking over the ship prior to a Mid-shipman. Every officer and enlisted man. In the immediate chain of command you have the XO (executive offficer) Then the operations officer, chief engineer, then any other department head based on seniority, then every division officer based on seniority. I could go on. Rather than have Kirk be an hard charging up and coming officer, they had him be a punk and a caricature of a Kirk that really never existed in TOS.

When you say TOS Kirk was self-centered ****** that couldn't recognize authority, you are completely wrong. That isn't the Kirk of the TOS, that is the cartoon caricature built around him. Most of Kirk's decisions to violate the Prime Directive, or any Star Fleet directive, were based on consultation with Bones and Spock at a minimum, and often Sulu and Scotty as well. They were contemplative decisions where logic and prudence trumped bureaucracy. In some cases his violation was because he was dealing with a corrupt Star Fleet official who was trying to hijack his vessel. Whenever there was danger to Kirk's crew he put himself out for sacrifice before them. He regularly tried to get his subordinates to safety before himself.

Okay everyone, lets go over this again and now say it with me one more time...

"A lightsaber does not make one a Jedi..."

To that point, neither does using the Force.

Simply put, what makes you a Jedi is getting inducted into the Jedi Order by another member. Same with Sith.

This is what enables you to have a bunch of Force Users on both sides despite the official line being "Luke is the last Jedi" and "The Rule of Two is in effect". It's a bit of a cop out wrapped in creative book keeping with a side of rules lawyering, but that's how it works now in the franchise (and in fact was the same with the old EU, there was just a bit less Force Users running around in the more mainstream Rebellion Era material, because unlike now, Rebellion Era wasn't the focus) which is why any complaints along the lines "Diala can't be a Jedi because Luke is the last Jedi and that offends me" or "Inquisitors are dumb because only Palpatine and Vader were Sith" are in fact moot.

Inquisitors are dumb because they crap all over the lore. If yo don't have some basic rules about the universe then what's the point? Han Solo said he didn't believe in the Force, yet if you look at Chewbacca, who keeps showing up, he's had more contact with Jedi than Luke ever had, once you include ROTS, The Clone Wars, and Rebels. The word Sith only appears once in the Star Wars novelization. It is never uttered onscreen. It is expanded on in the EU and then Lucas takes the expanded data and caters it to the Phantom Menace, the first time the term is heard in official canon. So despite tons of Inquisitors and Jedi running around just before TBY, Tarkin, who is shown completely involved in the affair sates to Vader in Star Wars, rather flippantly, "The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." This is after Vader says "...a tremor in the force. The last time i felt it was in the presence of my old master."

For the longest time this, and Obi Wan's comments were respected by novels, comics, and games who did their level best to limit Jedi until after Luke started the new Jedi academy, or to keep it 4000 years in the past. Then along comes Rebels. No longer taking place in the Clone Wars time period, but now taking place just a few years before ANH, is peppering the galaxy with good and bad force users that Darth Vader and Tarkin are fully aware of.

For the longest time this, and Obi Wan's comments were respected by novels, comics, and games who did their level best to limit Jedi until after Luke started the new Jedi academy, or to keep it 4000 years in the past. Then along comes Rebels. No longer taking place in the Clone Wars time period, but now taking place just a few years before ANH, is peppering the galaxy with good and bad force users that Darth Vader and Tarkin are fully aware of.

But if you watch Rebels and see what theyve uncovered with Kanan as character development, then you understand that #1 he is never a true Jedi. His master was killed in the clone wars while he was just a padawan. #2 He never reached full status as a knight. He even admits this several times in his confrontations. He IS strong in the force, but so are a lot of people, he has just happened to have formal training. Thats why he cant even beat an Inquisitor one on one. In the meantime while training Ezra, he has honed his skills more and has Ahsoka start training him more.

Then you look at Ahsoka, she has declared shes not a jedi anymore. She tells this to Vader in several confrontations. And with S2 ending, with Kanan losing his sight and Ahsoka possibly dead now (which is why I like Rebels, there is a very good chance she remains dead, Kanan dies, and even Ezra dies) bc then why wouldnt they be in ANH.

Also you want to crap on the Inquisitors, theyre basically force sensitive assassians. Theyre not Sith. Heck Ashoka takes on 2 with ease in one battle and Kanan and Ezra beat the Grand Inquisitor so he cant be that tough.

Again, just bc someone uses the force or a lightsaber doesnt put them on par with Luke/Obi/Vader.

And yes it makes sense when Vader says he feels a Tremor in the force with Obis presence. Compare it to Dragonball Z. Sure a lot of fighters have a high power level, more so compared to the "average" human. But only the highest leveled ones when they release their power make the wind blow hard and the ground shake. Its the same here, sure Kanan, Ashoka, and Ezra can push things and jump far, but Obis aura alone can make the force ground shake and only someone as Force trained as Vader, can feel his presence.

~D

The entire "forgotten religion" angle and people dismissing the Force as an old myth in the original trilogy already made no sense if you can do basic math to figure out it's been around twenty years since hundreds of Jedi fought on hundreds of battlefields in the entire galaxy doing spectacular space ninja wizard stuff all over the place. You can't tell me with a straight face that suddenly stopped and everyone in the entire galaxy collectively forgot about them and there has never been anyone in the entire galaxy becoming Force sensitive in the following two decade period.

Han Solo going all "hokey religion" and "it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense" and "there's no all-powerful force controlling everything" was dumb in the first place. It's not an ancient religion, it's a religion that was alive, practiced and outlawed literally during his lifetime. He's 29 by ANH, so had to be in his pre-teens and therefore old enough to be aware of what's going on by time the Jedi got their backsides whooped. We know that because Luke is 19 and we know his father was involved in said whooping and had to have him before or during that whooping. And that's even before the prequels were ever a gleam in anyone's eye, it's stuff you could figure out while waiting in line to the toilet at the cinema after seeing the movie in 1977.

Rebels didn't invalidate what Han and Vader and Tarkin and Motti said about the Jedi and the Force, because it didn't have any logical validity the very moment they even said it.

Inquisitors didn't change anything. They didn't spoil the lore, because the lore was already spoiled a multitude of times by the time Rebels ever got produced.

I'm not married to either the old EU or the new cartoon stuff. I enjoyed bits of both and found other bits of both lackluster to say the least. But I'm really tired of people specifically throwing buckets of garbage at Rebels for breaking all the stuff that was already broken a long time ago or for doing dumb kids crap in a franchise that was already full to the brim with dumb kids crap from the very beginning.

The problem is that people can't distance themselves for a moment from all of their presumably childhood memories of Star Wars to notice that.

I'm the first in line to admit that most of the Star Wars "lore", both "old" and "new", is dumb-as-a-brick childish nonsense. I can do that and still enjoy all of it, and I consider that a much healthier arrangement than getting angry over a cartoon.

I guess I missed the episode of Rebels where Ezra, Kannan and Ahsohka became Jedi...

Driving this back onto topic, I've been squinting at the cards and deciphering what I can make out of the cards they've yet to showcase. Everything in parentheses is stuff I'm not sure of, or assumed based on surrounding letters. Everything covered by anther card is marked by ellipses (...)

Obi Wan Kenobi

...(something)
<Force User>
Cost ...

Abilities -
+1 Evade
~: +3 Damage
~: Pierce 3

I hate to say it but I think Rik is right. Abrams reboots seem to gravitate toward the basically super powerful novice trope.

Have you met the Skywalker family?

I like that a majority of people's complaints about the new movie are ones that could apply to the originals in the exact same way.

Not really. Well sorta. Luke's use the force was promoted by Ben, after a bit of training, and *shudder* young Anakin used it (with practice it should bee noted) at a very instinctive survival level. I could buy Rey resisting that mind probe, but turning it around?

Understand I get that the excesses can be justified, but they shouldn't have to be. Yes you could make the argument that a lot of the tropes in tfa are in other star wars, but in those it was more subdued. Tfa took everything and magnified it. You destroy a planet, we destroy a solar system. You stop debris, we stop blaster bolts. You can sense the surface fears of your son, we can tear complex knowledge from guarded sections of your mind.

I didn't hate the movie, and I enjoyed watching it but... And I can't believe I'm saying this...It gave me an appreciation of the prequels because, as awful a derivative as they were, with more continuity incest than a European royal family, they at least tried to do some new things. Tfa just mashed up elements of other star wars movies, then injected steroids. The force Is strong with this one became the force is a lottery and rey just won it.

The talented but inexperienced newbie is a time honored trope, and it's fine, I don't mind it. I do mind it when it enters Mary sue levels and is used as a deus ex machina. Moderation is key to such things.

Luke Skywalker was an ace pilot that saved Wedge and Biggs from trouble after growing up in a farm but one time we see him play with a model of a ship so it's assumed he can pilot?

Luke Skywalker took down more Stormies than Han on the Death Star, but we saw him one time with a rifle on the farm (which he never shot)

Luke Skywalker didn't know what the force was at all when he first grabbed his lightsaber in Hoth, honestly did not have that concept.

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Rey is shown to have a pilot helmet and spend most of her life going through wreckage so we feel she understands mechanics and ship design even if she's never flown.

Rey is shown to carry a pole arm around, you assume she's used it.

Here's a key though:

Rey has memories of The island Luke is on before we ever see it, that Kylo "finds" when digging in her mind. If you don't think she has some unexplained past or connection to the force that allows her a greater understanding of how things she encounters works, then you ignored all the scripts obvoius signs:

She find the compressor on the Falcon, then figure out how to bypass it.

She understands BB-8 and Chewie instantly

She figures out her gun after the first shot

She figures out the force when being probed by it

She figures out lightsaber a half way through the fight

You can say these things happening is bad writing and nothing more, except for the fact that the script itself calls attention to her cognitive ability most times it appears. If it ignored it, it means they wanted you to as well. It drew attention to it because it wanted to hint something.

Or it's just bad writing and all new ideas suck.