Disengage is definitely not damned good. It isn't even good. Whether it triggers is entirely in the Imperial's control which pretty much makes it garbage right there, and the fact that it doesn't trigger during Mak's own turn usually makes the movement relatively worthless. If you are playing a mission called "Flee!" where the Imperials lose after so many turns of not wounding the Rebels, it would be an awesome ability, but as it is, it's probably his worst ability.

Execute is okay if you're using the die removal ability or you have Gideon giving you extra attacks, otherwise it will rarely be as good as Get Cocky so I've never been terribly impressed. 2 strain + positioning to get rid of the white die is usually sorta meh, but if the Imps are using Cloaking Device on their troopers it's very worthwhile as the 2 pierce won't be wasted since they're still rolling black.

Cheap Shot is probably better than Sidewinder, especially since it costs half as much. The extra wound can often mean the difference between killing a trooper or not, and having a stun for uniques or vehicles is always good. I definitely get Sidewinder, but I get Cheap Shot first.

Disengage is definitely not damned good. It isn't even good. Whether it triggers is entirely in the Imperial's control which pretty much makes it garbage right there, and the fact that it doesn't trigger during Mak's own turn usually makes the movement relatively worthless. If you are playing a mission called "Flee!" where the Imperials lose after so many turns of not wounding the Rebels, it would be an awesome ability, but as it is, it's probably his worst ability.

Execute is okay if you're using the die removal ability or you have Gideon giving you extra attacks, otherwise it will rarely be as good as Get Cocky so I've never been terribly impressed. 2 strain + positioning to get rid of the white die is usually sorta meh, but if the Imps are using Cloaking Device on their troopers it's very worthwhile as the 2 pierce won't be wasted since they're still rolling black.

Cheap Shot is probably better than Sidewinder, especially since it costs half as much. The extra wound can often mean the difference between killing a trooper or not, and having a stun for uniques or vehicles is always good. I definitely get Sidewinder, but I get Cheap Shot first.

When you're opponent doesn't move within 3 spaces of Mak because they'd rather not trigger disengage, that's value (I also don't see any merit in the claim that out of turn movement lacks value).

"As good as Get Cocky" is incredible, being only a bit short of that is still nice.

The extra damage from cheap shot can also often be overkill and thus worthless, going the other way if a trooper is on 1 health instead of 2 that may also be irrelevant depending on comp. And this is better than something that means you never* need to spend an action to move again?

*Okay not never, but I wouldn't be surprised if it averaged less than once a mission

I also think Disengage is quite good. Free movement is great, even if it happens on your opponent's turn. And most missions have wounding all the heroes as one of their victory conditions, and wounding Mak is very difficult if you can't get within 3 spaces of him. Unfortunately for this group, Nexus are one of the few units that actually don't have that much trouble with disengage, because they have a large amount of movement, mobile, and pounce.

Sidewinder is much better than Cheap Shot, in my opinion. You get 6 spaces of movement that ignores movement point costs if you attack twice (assuming you deal damage each time), which is incredible. And that's not even including when you use Quick Draw.

Cheap shot having +1 damage and ~Stun is nice, but it's often too easy for the Imperials to block LOS to valuable targets, so it doesn't see as much use as you want it to.

Disengage and Execute are fantastic abilities. Disengage being able to use on the Imperials turn makes it even better (movement not on your turn helps with action economy) and plays much more into Mak's Glass cannon traits. Word for word yes, Cheap shot is better than Execute, however, both are triggered by defeating enemies and Mak over the course of a mission is going to kill more enemies than Jyn, so the value of that skill is higher in his hands. Mak has better range, is the easiest of all characters to get focused, pierces defense, has better variety in items he can use, and can perform insane amounts of concentrated damage on a single target.

There really is not a comparison between Mak and Jyn in my mind. Mak is much stronger offensively, has better survivability, and more ways to improve action economy than Jyn. Yes, Jyn has speed, and thats about it, she only has one defensive ability that costs strain and is pretty bad overall. Her interrupt is straight forward to counter for any experienced Imperial players, and she gets wounded fast. The only chance she has to pack any punch is if you are lucky enough to get the DL-44, then Gunslinger, and then the Sporting Blaster. I will admit, this is a powerful combo, but it relies on chance and having enough credits to make her competitive vs other heroes. And as mentioned above, the DL-44 is not that effective vs ST because the gun relies on surges for damage.

My experience with Jyn is she is one of the worst if not the worst (Loku is up for this merit as well) hero in the game. Quite surprised she is being compared to Mak, who is clearly an all star.

My experience with Jyn is she is one of the worst if not the worst (Loku is up for this merit as well) hero in the game. Quite surprised she is being compared to Mak, who is clearly an all star.

They're not being compared (aside from two cards), they're just being talked about in the same post. As for Jyn being terrible I've always had great success with her (though I do agree she's dependent on specific items which is becoming more and more of a handicap) even without getting attacks off from quick shot. If she gets the stuff we've talked about then she doesn't need to spend actions to move, doesn't need to spend actions to rest has the strongest attacks in the game (not including that she doesn't focus as easily as Mak). She doesn't care that she's squishy because she doesn't rest or move.

When you're opponent doesn't move within 3 spaces of Mak because they'd rather not trigger disengage, that's value (I also don't see any merit in the claim that out of turn movement lacks value).

"As good as Get Cocky" is incredible, being only a bit short of that is still nice.

The extra damage from cheap shot can also often be overkill and thus worthless, going the other way if a trooper is on 1 health instead of 2 that may also be irrelevant depending on comp. And this is better than something that means you never* need to spend an action to move again?

*Okay not never, but I wouldn't be surprised if it averaged less than once a mission

Value is getting focus out of Jeswandi Training for free rather than pissing away a strain to move 3 then another strain for 2 pierce. I'll take a green for no strain rather than 2 pierce for 2 + getting pushed 3 squares away from the objective so wasting a further action just to catch up. Disengage is not at all good.

As I said, Sidewinder is good, but Jynn already has 2 other movement abilities, 1 of them she comes with. Pistol damage however is meh. Upping her low damage rather than tack on a 2nd movement ability should be the priority. Being able to stun is a pretty big bonus as it's fairly rare for Rebels and one of the people that can do it, Gideon, shouldn't even be shooting.

Value is getting focus out of Jeswandi Training for free rather than pissing away a strain to move 3 then another strain for 2 pierce. I'll take a green for no strain rather than 2 pierce for 2 + getting pushed 3 squares away from the objective so wasting a further action just to catch up. Disengage is not at all good.

As I said, Sidewinder is good, but Jynn already has 2 other movement abilities, 1 of them she comes with. Pistol damage however is meh. Upping her low damage rather than tack on a 2nd movement ability should be the priority. Being able to stun is a pretty big bonus as it's fairly rare for Rebels and one of the people that can do it, Gideon, shouldn't even be shooting.

It's not an either or with Jeswandi training or disengage. Also more importantly: you can move where you want with disengage, it doesn't need to take you away from the triggering enemy.

Jyn's other two movement abilites, even combined, don't put her in the "no move actions" range; sidewinder does, alone. That's a much bigger deal than +1 damage and the option to stun on (at the absolute most absurdly optimistic) half your attacks.

I think you need to rethink how to use Disengage.

Also, if Diala is present you can trigger it on the Rebel's turn by using Force Throw and putting an Imperial within 4 spaces of Mak.

With Jyn I feel like you have to run with QAAW, Sidewinder and Gunslinger. Smuggler's Luck helps her get the equipment she needs to be truely effective. You want DL-44 and Tac Display in tier I, then get Sporting Blaster in tier III. A Combat Coat or Laminate Armor is great too. Cheap Shot is fun, but not necessary. The right guns and Gunslinger are a much better way to maximize her offensive abilities.

(Within 3 spaces.)

Yeah, nothing says you have to use disengage to move 3 spaces AWAY from the objective. You can just move toward it and take the hit from the enemy unit if you don't get far enough away from them.

I think you need to rethink how to use Disengage.

Also, if Diala is present you can trigger it on the Rebel's turn by using Force Throw and putting an Imperial within 4 spaces of Mak.

I've thought about Disengage. Not being able to use a movement ability unless the Imperials allow me to makes it pretty worthless. Using it to set up a shot during the opponent's turn when they can still move and ruin the shot makes it very frequently a waste of a strain.

Triggering it with Force Throw is generally pretty dumb. Team Rebel has then spent 3 strain to move 3 spaces and do 1 wound, which is a pretty huge waste. You could just Force Throw Mak without costing him a strain, and still have Disengage available, allowing him to potentially move 6 for 3 strain rather than 3 for 3. I'd only trigger with Force Throw if that 1 wound would kill something and I'd very badly positioned Mak and needed him moved during Diala's action... a situation that will practically never come up.

I think you need to rethink how to use Disengage.

Also, if Diala is present you can trigger it on the Rebel's turn by using Force Throw and putting an Imperial within 4 spaces of Mak.

I've thought about Disengage. Not being able to use a movement ability unless the Imperials allow me to makes it pretty worthless. Using it to set up a shot during the opponent's turn when they can still move and ruin the shot makes it very frequently a waste of a strain.

Triggering it with Force Throw is generally pretty dumb. Team Rebel has then spent 3 strain to move 3 spaces and do 1 wound, which is a pretty huge waste. You could just Force Throw Mak without costing him a strain, and still have Disengage available, allowing him to potentially move 6 for 3 strain rather than 3 for 3. I'd only trigger with Force Throw if that 1 wound would kill something and I'd very badly positioned Mak and needed him moved during Diala's action... a situation that will practically never come up.

In the majority of missions the rebels need to get somewhere, moving 3 spaces closer to that somewhere isn't meaningfully worse when it's not your turn. (I do agree with you that force throwing an enemy to trigger disengage is very situational and wouldn't make make disengage worthwhile if it wasn't already).

Just a follow up here, After losing "Fire in the Sky" horribly (we played for 3 hours again and killed 4 total imperial figures -- oh and Boba Fett showed up to utterly laugh at our offense) even without the Imperial Player taking any Nexus (disallowed by the mission) we literally gave up on playing against Subversive Tactics and the Imperial player agreed to switch to a new class deck. Hopefully we can at least have some fun if not actually win a mission.

Sidenote: After all these discussions and more on Facebook I'm thoroughly convinced that this game was not playtested very well in the Campaign arena. Perhaps it is great in Skirmish but we've never tried it that way.

There are just too many variables in the campaign. Combinations of heroes, skills and items and player skill and style and missing some small rules can tilt the results quickly. However, I count 5 rebel wins and 2 imperial wins in the finished Play by Forum campaigns, so it must not be totally one-sided to either direction. ( see https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/SWIA_PBF )

I played against Subversive Tactics in SWIA008, and it took us (relatively experienced players) just too long to learn to play against it. We did fight valiantly in the finale, but the gap was too big by then. It was still fun in the end (I like the struggle).

There are just too many variables in the campaign. Combinations of heroes, skills and items and player skill and style and missing some small rules can tilt the results quickly. However, I count 5 rebel wins and 2 imperial wins in the finished Play by Forum campaigns, so it must not be totally one-sided to either direction. ( see https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/SWIA_PBF )

I played against Subversive Tactics in SWIA008, and it took us (relatively experienced players) just too long to learn to play against it. We did fight valiantly in the finale, but the gap was too big by then. It was still fun in the end (I like the struggle).

With all due respect, using "play by forum" results is -- well, laughable. That's not how the game was designed and I daresay not how it was playtested. Still, I'm more than willing to accept that we are missing a key rule/interaction or just straight up "playing poorly" in our group. We are very casual so that could easily be the case of people not paying attention. The game does not lend itself well to "beer and pretzel" gaming you almost have to focus on it exclusively the entire time to notice things in the proper timing windows/do your cost-benefit analysis.

I'm hopeful that when our Imperial Player switches classes we will actually have interesting missions again.

I'm glad I could bring you joy.

Maybe the win-stats of first-time players playing each mission of the core campaign would amuse you as well:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1331517/how-balanced-each-scenario

Sidenote: After all these discussions and more on Facebook I'm thoroughly convinced that this game was not playtested very well in the Campaign arena. Perhaps it is great in Skirmish but we've never tried it that way.

I don't have much faith in FFG's playtesting in general (still love their games though).

In case of the IA campaign I think the biggest problem is snowball (where getting the rewards for one mission put one side further ahead and thus they win the next mission etc) (It's very telling that in the poll above the "loosing path" shows more imperial favor than the "winning path" in every case except story mission 1 (400 extra credits is decidedly not as big of a deal as 1 extra xp).

I'm glad I could bring you joy.

Maybe the win-stats of first-time players playing each mission of the core campaign would amuse you as well:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1331517/how-balanced-each-scenario

Huh...looks like a majority of the missions are indeed easier for the Imperials to win. I guess that's "story appropriate" for a game where you're playing Rebels who are NOT main characters? Seems like poor design to me, but perhaps we need to re-evaluate what it means for us to "win" a scenario. True heroes of the Rebellion do seem quite rare based on these results. Next time I play Rebels I'm going to pick the Jedi girl and see if I can do better as far as actually killing Imperials.

There are a few quite imperial-tilted missions in the core campaign, but also rebel-tilted ones. A few are much easier with 3 heroes, while some are easy with 2 heroes. There could be biases as well - such as the owner of the game being the imperial player most of the time and thus being able to learn the game more quickly. Another possibility is group-think about how a certain mission should be played. If there is a 'natural way' and 'the correct way', it may affect the spread.