I'd agree to a certain extent but the chances of surviving dedicated attention still seems slim to me, especially if you can land shots on them by turn 2 you can probably finish them off by turn 3, even more so with damage spike pieces rolling around like Ackbar (still very popular in my area). Most builds I've seen are either carriers or commander mobiles, all of which push the cost close to 40+ points which is enough to warrant a bulls-eye. With Cracken on Bright Hope you almost don't give your opponent a choice. It's either take the shots on him or have your firepower drastically reduced on every shot you take, granted that could be good or bad depending on how you capitalize on that.

Taking you examples the correct move with a TRC90 is to fire two 1 red die shots (CF on the side arc). Each do double hits. Scatter 1 and evade the other. Follow up either does 2 damage or you throw away two tokens. Repeat and the ship dies. Ackbar makes it simpler, can make it happen in one turn, and it really comes down to the dice roll itself since rolling more double hits/accuracies becomes more likely. My play experience is almost exclusively rebels so I won;t comment on the raiders.

From tactical standpoint I'm not sure I agree either with your last point. Taking 110 points (102 with 2 TRC90's) to kill 46 points isn't a bad move. Taking 102 points to kill a 46 point model and losing a 51 point model in return may be but without any offensive power the danger of losing a TRC90 has to come from another attack vector which then layers on the "what if's". People have been shooting at corvettes with Star Destroyers and it's never really been considered a bad move unless you put the Star Destroyer way out of position so it only has an opportunity to kill 1 corvette. The difference in our case it that the a CR90 is fast/maneuverable enough to take out some support and get back into the fight proper.

Just to be clear, I don't necessarily disagree that the Crack-scooter isn't a good idea, I was just skeptical of how easily it could be brought down. Sort of thinking out loud.

Just a couple of points. Remember, you're obstructed, so the CR90 at long range can't CF to get that single side arc die, because the attack is cancelled before you get the opportunity to CF. This dramatically hampers the TRC90's effectiveness against the Crack-scooter at long range.

Secondly, I agree that it's very "what-iffy" to determine whether it's worth it to dedicate a pair of corvettes to run down the admiral, but there's definitely an opportunity cost there. If Cracken is really trying to run away, chances are you're spending at least two turns running him down, and then another two getting your CR90's back into the fight after you've tagged him. Four turns could easily be enough time to leverage the absence of 1/4 of the enemy fleet in exchange for 1/8 of your own, if you've built to do so.

I thought obstructed just took away dice right before you rolled your attacks?

Normal:

Check Battery Armament at Range.
Collect those Dice.

Roll those Dice.

Add Dice to the Dice Pool (such as Concentrate Fire).

Obstructed:
Check Battery Armament at Range.

Collect Those Dice.

Remove a Die due to Obstruction.

Roll Remaining Dice. (If that is 0, the attack is cancelled,right here, right now).

Add Dice to the Dice Pool (Such as Concentrate Fire)

Normal:

Check Battery Armament at Range.

Collect those Dice.

Roll those Dice.

Add Dice to the Dice Pool (such as Concentrate Fire).

Obstructed:

Check Battery Armament at Range.

Collect Those Dice.

Remove a Die due to Obstruction.

Roll Remaining Dice. (If that is 0, the attack is cancelled,right here, right now).

Add Dice to the Dice Pool (Such as Concentrate Fire)

Ah. Normal play around here has everyone just rolling the dice at once. i should of known this considering how often I have to explain Defiance.

^ what he said

The first time i play somebody with their admiral on their gr-75 I'm just hoping i have a plain raider to ram the damned thing three times to death!

Seriously, though, I agree that this is all situational and really depends on both fleets. If Rieekan is on one with a fleet full of GR-75s, then of course I'm hunting for it. and who in the hell is paying $200 for that stupid fleet?)

On a somewhat related note, I think Ackbar might be a bad match up for Cracken. Obstructed changed up the mantra of normally trying to make a bunch of smaller attacks and the speed 3 requirements mean you need to make the attacks that you can make against Cracken as big as possible. Just a random thought.

I see that logic there,too... But I also know where the enemy is going to be aiming their Anti-Tank Rounds

Oh I agree. But I have more faith in my tank to survive than your greenhouse. Like I say, I get the logic. It also comes down to the way I prefer to fly, and the way I know I've struggled to fly in the past.

I see that logic there,too... But I also know where the enemy is going to be aiming their Anti-Tank Rounds

Oh I agree. But I have more faith in my tank to survive than your greenhouse. Like I say, I get the logic. It also comes down to the way I prefer to fly, and the way I know I've struggled to fly in the past.

Faith is Irrelevant where Dice Fly.

I've recently had to change that. I switched out Double Pickle for 2 Shrims, 2 Vettes and a Neb... It was literally the first time I ran Vettes in over 12 months...

An enemy can have all the guns in the world. If they can't get range, you're invulnerable.

But then, the world most effective Lockpick is Dynamite... Sooo... There's always the counter Argument.

It is going to be dependant on how you fly. And on how I fly.

In that essence, we are both correct.

The first time i play somebody with their admiral on their gr-75 I'm just hoping i have a plain raider to ram the damned thing three times to death!

Seriously, though, I agree that this is all situational and really depends on both fleets. If Rieekan is on one with a fleet full of GR-75s, then of course I'm hunting for it. and who in the hell is paying $200 for that stupid fleet?)

There are people with THAT MUCH disposable income who are THAT MUCH of an a*****e who will do such a thing....

The first time i play somebody with their admiral on their gr-75 I'm just hoping i have a plain raider to ram the damned thing three times to death!

Seriously, though, I agree that this is all situational and really depends on both fleets. If Rieekan is on one with a fleet full of GR-75s, then of course I'm hunting for it. and who in the hell is paying $200 for that stupid fleet?)

There are people with THAT MUCH disposable income who are THAT MUCH of an a*****e who will do such a thing....

I won't believe it until you provide at least a Venn diagram.

The first time i play somebody with their admiral on their gr-75 I'm just hoping i have a plain raider to ram the damned thing three times to death!

Seriously, though, I agree that this is all situational and really depends on both fleets. If Rieekan is on one with a fleet full of GR-75s, then of course I'm hunting for it. and who in the hell is paying $200 for that stupid fleet?)

There are people with THAT MUCH disposable income who are THAT MUCH of an a*****e who will do such a thing....

I won't believe it until you provide at least a Venn diagram.

I don't need one, I've been around the miniature wargaming scene long enough to know there is that ONE GUY who loves hordes...and will spend stupid money to get them.

Imagine a swarm of GR75's....15 of them...with Rieeken.

I don't need one, I've been around the miniature wargaming scene long enough to know there is that ONE GUY who loves hordes...and will spend stupid money to get them.

Imagine a swarm of GR75's....15 of them...with Rieeken.

You don't need one. That's cool.

But I said I wouldn't believe you until you provided at least that.

If I could possibly imagine a scenario in which I might want that many GR-75's...

... and they were on sale for $5 a pop like my CR90's were...

... nah, even then. Maybe 10 of them, at the very outside.

I am quite fond of replacing my MC80 CMD with exp hangar GR75 and taking another MC30 or TRC90 + other stuff with the difference. You could also roughly swap one TRC90 with a GR75 + 2 OR 1x/1y, BCC, which yields you either 2 red and a 8 AS dice or 1 red, 1 black 6 AS dice at greater than long range. Not too shabby, IMO!

I'm having trouble fitting two in!

The more we talk about flotillas around the gaming table, the more we realize how screwed the VSD and MC80 are.

The VSD is just slow, easy to nuke and outside of corruptor...has no place really on the table anymore when some Gonzo's and Tarkin can do the job cheaply. The MC80 well...well the MC80 just doesn't bring the tactical flexibility the rebels need. Their fighters are expensive, more so are the upgrades and you're putting alot of faith into a single activation that can do what...4 maybe 5 fighter commands at most? Firepower is great on the MC80...but the assault frigate does the job just as effectively, if not better with some flotillas.

This game is going to shift, I think more so in the way of medium capital ships for the rebels with high squadron count...cheap carriers = more rebel fighters.

I for one see the MC80 and the VSD becoming rarer...and fighter swarms becoming very popular again.

Now I for one long the space turd, but I see activations as more vital, flotillas + spacewhales + cr90s with TRC. The rebel fleet is going to get larger, but with smaller ships.

Unless the MC80 Liberty comes on the scene and gives the Rebels a slightly more expensive assault frigate (capability wise)...

The first time i play somebody with their admiral on their gr-75 I'm just hoping i have a plain raider to ram the damned thing three times to death!

Seriously, though, I agree that this is all situational and really depends on both fleets. If Rieekan is on one with a fleet full of GR-75s, then of course I'm hunting for it. and who in the hell is paying $200 for that stupid fleet?)

There are people with THAT MUCH disposable income who are THAT MUCH of an a*****e who will do such a thing....

I won't believe it until you provide at least a Venn diagram.

I don't need one, I've been around the miniature wargaming scene long enough to know there is that ONE GUY who loves hordes...and will spend stupid money to get them.

Imagine a swarm of GR75's....15 of them...with Rieeken.

Vassal means you can try it for free.

The simple solution is the new Rebel Commander, General Cracken. What is the Flotilla player going for now? He can't shoot or ram, so it comes down to his squadrons.

The first time i play somebody with their admiral on their gr-75 I'm just hoping i have a plain raider to ram the damned thing three times to death!

Seriously, though, I agree that this is all situational and really depends on both fleets. If Rieekan is on one with a fleet full of GR-75s, then of course I'm hunting for it. and who in the hell is paying $200 for that stupid fleet?)

There are people with THAT MUCH disposable income who are THAT MUCH of an a*****e who will do such a thing....

I won't believe it until you provide at least a Venn diagram.

I don't need one, I've been around the miniature wargaming scene long enough to know there is that ONE GUY who loves hordes...and will spend stupid money to get them.

Imagine a swarm of GR75's....15 of them...with Rieeken.

Vassal means you can try it for free.

The simple solution is the new Rebel Commander, General Cracken. What is the Flotilla player going for now? He can't shoot or ram, so it comes down to his squadrons.

15 combat retrofit's can shoot a blue dice. 2 if he uses CF tokens.

The more we talk about flotillas around the gaming table, the more we realize how screwed the VSD and MC80 are.

I think because the opposite. The little Flotillas bring enhancements that work with the big ships and make them more capable at resisting a horde of small ships and tough it out against a similar large ship.

The more we talk about flotillas around the gaming table, the more we realize how screwed the VSD and MC80 are.

I think because the opposite. The little Flotillas bring enhancements that work with the big ships and make them more capable at resisting a horde of small ships and tough it out against a similar large ship.

And I love me some Defiance. The Big D hasn't let me down yet. (insert double entendre)

Honestly, I think you might see a resurgence in Home One at the very least. Accuracies on demand is going to be pretty powerful against flotillas.

The first time i play somebody with their admiral on their gr-75 I'm just hoping i have a plain raider to ram the damned thing three times to death!

Seriously, though, I agree that this is all situational and really depends on both fleets. If Rieekan is on one with a fleet full of GR-75s, then of course I'm hunting for it. and who in the hell is paying $200 for that stupid fleet?)

There are people with THAT MUCH disposable income who are THAT MUCH of an a*****e who will do such a thing....

I won't believe it until you provide at least a Venn diagram.

I don't need one, I've been around the miniature wargaming scene long enough to know there is that ONE GUY who loves hordes...and will spend stupid money to get them.

Imagine a swarm of GR75's....15 of them...with Rieeken.

Vassal means you can try it for free.

The simple solution is the new Rebel Commander, General Cracken. What is the Flotilla player going for now? He can't shoot or ram, so it comes down to his squadrons.

15 combat retrofit's can shoot a blue dice. 2 if he uses CF tokens.

Or none if you are going speed 3 with General Cracken leading your fleet. Even with the CF Commands, tokens don't help at all, you only add a dice after forming a pool.

So with out anything else in your fleet you get locked out and are unable to deal damage.

15 Combat Refits' are therefore just targets.

The first time i play somebody with their admiral on their gr-75 I'm just hoping i have a plain raider to ram the damned thing three times to death!

Seriously, though, I agree that this is all situational and really depends on both fleets. If Rieekan is on one with a fleet full of GR-75s, then of course I'm hunting for it. and who in the hell is paying $200 for that stupid fleet?)

There are people with THAT MUCH disposable income who are THAT MUCH of an a*****e who will do such a thing....

I won't believe it until you provide at least a Venn diagram.

I don't need one, I've been around the miniature wargaming scene long enough to know there is that ONE GUY who loves hordes...and will spend stupid money to get them.

Imagine a swarm of GR75's....15 of them...with Rieeken.

Vassal means you can try it for free.

The simple solution is the new Rebel Commander, General Cracken. What is the Flotilla player going for now? He can't shoot or ram, so it comes down to his squadrons.

15 combat retrofit's can shoot a blue dice. 2 if he uses CF tokens.

Or none if you are going speed 3 with General Cracken leading your fleet. Even with the CF Commands, tokens don't help at all, you only add a dice after forming a pool.

So with out anything else in your fleet you get locked out and are unable to deal damage.

15 Combat Refits' are therefore just targets.

Right but what about the fleets that don't have Cracken?

Then it is a race of attrition between your fleet and the GR75 fleet, like it is with a CR90/Raider Fleet. You have 45 hull and 15 blue dice and they have 20+ hull and 20+ coloured dice and a free ram or two per activation. So you are trying to burn them down faster than they can burn you down, a race of attrition. Home One, Intel Officer and Sensor Teams, can also stop the Scatter with ease.

Squadrons of your own mostly gets around the scatter defense token and with "-" to the sides you can't shoot at them with everything and using the scatter on a squadrons 1-2 damage isn't efficient at all.

Mon Montha and 8 Corvettes with SW-7's can do far better than 15 Blue dice for the fleet, that is more likely to be seen in play and probably far better to play, so other than a silly game or two the idea just doesn't scare me. There are better fleets and at $32au each GR75, better ways of spending my money.

Even if I am terribly wrong, and these do become a thing. The solution, General Cracken, isn't terrible and works quite well regardless of the other fleets. So if you are worried you'll see these fleets ante up the 26 points and don't worry.

Back to the main point, how do you incorporate Flotillas? Slicer tools and pocket carrier are the two most obvious. But what about activation advantage?

First thing to remember is that ships take up area and there's only so many you can pack into one area. This creates effects like fronts, layers(reserves), and "the tip of the spear". A force that is uniformly strong wants all their ships engaging at once. Say the AFM2 line or the lesser used VSD line. The tactics required mean all ships of the fleet are meant to engage all at once and the combined firepower outmatches the opponent.

The alternative is the tip of the spear. Here there is one or two ships that outclass most others and the goal is to get the spear matched up with a beatable subsection of the opponent. This is epitomized in Armada by the Demolisher lists. The Demolisher desperately wants the back to back activations and when it gets them can take down larger targets.

The use of flotillas then suggest "tip of the spear" type engagement fleets. The activation and deployment advantages they create are better than (or need to be better than) the raw gun power of the opponent. The VSDs are point for point some of the best ships around. But they don't get used as much because people have trouble getting them on target to make their points effective. But flotillas aren't point effective for guns. It comes as no surprise that people may have trouble using them in pure list building. The lists are BOUND to look anemic because it's hard to appreciate the ships impact in a vacuum.

Instead, the way to build flotilla lists starts with imagining a typical engagement. Particularly, what ship or two is the tip of the spear and how do you get those ships to an ideal encounter with the enemy (and have to do this vs common enemy types). Then you add ships until that engagement is realized.

Say you commonly face 5 activation Demolisher. Start with the ship you want to take on as your tip, say an MC30, and realize you need five activations yourself (or an absurd initiative bid). So write down the MC30, then "purchase" 4 GR-75s. Then continue building the list by intelligently buying squadrons, upgrades, and replacing GR-75s with better ships. But only do so with the full battle in mind. No point in replacing the GR-75 with a Neb if that ship is unlikely to see considerable action. Instead, what can be done to improve the lead MC30 and its immediate contingent of the tip of the spear.

this was some great insight and shop talk!