b-wings are destroyed by ordnance. 1 plasma torp from a jumpmaster, you're looking at 5 shields gone almost guaranteed. the next torp will kill it.

perhaps if there was a card that countered ordnance. something like countermeasures but better, since countermeasure is expensive, doesn't work against deadeye, and 1 extra agility for one round isn't going to do much.

Are we really discussing the need to nerf ordnance?

A lot has changed in this game in the last 6 months.

As wild as it is, I really do think that ordnance went a bit too far with Uboats. Look at the Uboats without the ordnance fix (Gudiance Chips)- Deadeye, Extra munitions, Agromech of choice, glitterstim...There is a pretty good chance they would still be pretty potent without it, as they have the perfect mix of upgrades to mesh with ordnance. I think it was just the perfect storm that the one ship that could have made ordnance work, was packed in with the ordnance fix.

Oh I dont disagree with you. I just think its funny how we went from ordnance in like 2% of lists and never at the top tables to having regionals with the entire top 4 being all torpedo toting U-Boats.

The JM5K is the perfect storm of being able to use all the new munitions upgrades to almost guarantee 4 hits with every shot. And just in case you dodge the topr arc, they can fall back on a PWT. Other torp carriers got better too but none as good as this beast.

The problem with Bwings and G1 vs Death Croissants Threesome is the contracted scout should be more expensive or not have EPT.

I can´t really understand how a ship with 9 HP, barrel roll, 2 evade dices, EPT, Skill 3, and able to have droid and two torpedoes costs only 25 points. Meanwhile the cheapest Firespray is 33 points, the Outer Rim Smuggler is 27 points and the Wild Space Fringer is 30 points.

Zuckuss seems to be doing more than fine. Hell, I saw a Freelancer doing pretty well in one tournament.

yes ordnance. 5 dmg with plasma torps, your bwing is gone. just to make some examples, dash can only do 4 at most, if he has TL and focus, and costs more than a jumpmaster. aces with full dice mods can only do 3-4 dmg at range 2 at most, still not 5 almost guaranteed shields by simply taking a focus. so yes ordnance, ordnance with guaranteed dice mods like guidance chips is the worst thing for bwings. sure the b-wings may also be not very strong vs other popular choices.

see the dagger with FCS will shoot with full dice mods only in its 2nd turn, by which time it'll probably be dead. the b-wing damage increases in its 2nd turn, but the ordnance hammered you in the first round anyway

G1A's are great. The ace abilities of 4Lom and Zuckuss are very good, and the crew/illicit slots have excellent options.

They got overshadowed by U-boats, but it doesn't mean you can't build a solid squad with these guys.

They-are-fine

YUP... and can kill great. The herd is fickel and forgets the istablished glory in favore of The NEW Hotness... meh.

Glory IS As Glory Does!!!

How are you just so freaking awesome?

yes ordnance. 5 dmg with plasma torps, your bwing is gone. just to make some examples, dash can only do 4 at most, if he has TL and focus, and costs more than a jumpmaster. aces with full dice mods can only do 3-4 dmg at range 2 at most, still not 5 almost guaranteed shields by simply taking a focus. so yes ordnance, ordnance with guaranteed dice mods like guidance chips is the worst thing for bwings. sure the b-wings may also be not very strong vs other popular choices.

see the dagger with FCS will shoot with full dice mods only in its 2nd turn, by which time it'll probably be dead. the b-wing damage increases in its 2nd turn, but the ordnance hammered you in the first round anyway

It's not ordnance that's the problem, its the undercosted Jumpmasters with the perfect storm of ordnance upgrades that are the problem.

The problem with Bwings and G1 vs Death Croissants Threesome is the contracted scout should be more expensive or not have EPT.

I can´t really understand how a ship with 9 HP, barrel roll, 2 evade dices, EPT, Skill 3, and able to have droid and two torpedoes costs only 25 points. Meanwhile the cheapest Firespray is 33 points, the Outer Rim Smuggler is 27 points and the Wild Space Fringer is 30 points.

I can't really understand how a ship that rolls blank blank focus on 3 agility dice should be able to pull 4 evade results out of its ass either.

Make bank boost red. This way they have a chance against Acewings.

That's interesting...

I think I like that idea. I'm trying to see the downside and not having much luck.

The downside is that the game's balance is very fragile. And it hasn't been until the past year that arc dodging aces are even considered viable. Such a VAST nerf would destroy the balance, completely eliminating an entire aspect of the game.

Then, with arc dodgers no longer a thing, turrets are no longer required, and they will fall to jousting efficient squads. And then with jousting efficient squads being dominate, ordnance would fall off.

And you would be left with W1-esque meta. We've come so far since then to throw it all away on a knee jerk reaction that boost (of all things!) is overpowered.

Only bank boost would be red.

Imagine for a second that when barrel rolling, you have the choice to do a bank barrel roll. Would that be stupid and annoying on every ship? Yes. Bank boost is similarly broken. You shouldn't be able to do freebie 1 banks constantly.

A meta without turrets and Acewings. Oh no what a horrible game that would be where you have to actually account for your opponent's maneuvers instead of just having a higher pilot skill and boosting.

The problem with Bwings and G1 vs Death Croissants Threesome is the contracted scout should be more expensive or not have EPT.

I can´t really understand how a ship with 9 HP, barrel roll, 2 evade dices, EPT, Skill 3, and able to have droid and two torpedoes costs only 25 points. Meanwhile the cheapest Firespray is 33 points, the Outer Rim Smuggler is 27 points and the Wild Space Fringer is 30 points.

Dear sweet God, can we PLEASE stop comparing the Scouts to the Fringer and ORS! That's sorta like saying that the TIE fighter is overpowered because it has the same total health as a Scyk but costs two points less. Just because one ship sucks, that doesn't mean that all others should suck equally.

As for G-1A's -- they're fine. They're not great, but they're fine. Zuckuss won the Steele Open after all, didn't he? The generics aren't very well-suited to this meta, but that will change. The B-Wings are also in a weird place of being good in general but bad in the meta. If their unique pilots were good, they might see some play; but as it is, the only good B-Wings are generics, and they're not exactly thriving in a meta where even TLT Y-Wings have troubles.

They-are-fine

YUP... and can kill great. The herd is fickel and forgets the istablished glory in favore of The NEW Hotness... meh.

Glory IS As Glory Does!!!

How are you just so freaking awesome?

Thanks Brah!

I care and try real hard to be real, ... and I have been around long enough to know what is important in life.

They-are-fine

YUP... and can kill great. The herd is fickel and forgets the istablished glory in favore of The NEW Hotness... meh.

Glory IS As Glory Does!!!

How are you just so freaking awesome?

Thanks Brah!

I care and try real hard to be real, ... and I have been around long enough to know what is important in life.

To destroy your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women?

A meta without turrets and Acewings. Oh no what a horrible game that would be where you have to actually account for your opponent's maneuvers instead of just having a higher pilot skill and boosting.

And back to the usual whine.

B-Wings are still good, but somewhat overshadowed these days.

They-are-fine

YUP... and can kill great. The herd is fickel and forgets the istablished glory in favore of The NEW Hotness... meh.

Glory IS As Glory Does!!!

How are you just so freaking awesome?

Thanks Brah!

I care and try real hard to be real, ... and I have been around long enough to know what is important in life.

To destroy your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women?

I made it to top 32 cut of Hoth with a G1, the Steele open was won by a list with a G1. The ship is fine. How about you all actually play it instead of instantly just announcing it broken. Yeah, if you joust with it against torp boat improperly, you will die, but guess what, don't just fly slowly into them. Starting to think most people don't play this game but just theory craft perposed useless fixes.

They-are-fine

YUP... and can kill great. The herd is fickel and forgets the istablished glory in favore of The NEW Hotness... meh.

Glory IS As Glory Does!!!

How are you just so freaking awesome?

Thanks Brah!

I care and try real hard to be real, ... and I have been around long enough to know what is important in life.

To destroy your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women?

That is good! That is good!

B-wings are not more prone to ordnance fire.

X-wings (both types), HWK, Y-wikgs, etc are not more stable under concentrated ordnance fire. That should not be an argument. I rather prefer to loose a 22 point ship during opponents alpha strike than Poe or Palob or other big players.

We need a really amazing crew/system combo that can only exist in a small ship.

Love all chatter about "fixes" and things of the sort; it's what helps this forum be entertaining!

I am a super-novice, I'll admit; and I have but 1 B-wing from the Reb. Aces, but when I fly Rebs, I almost always use it; it is a solid ship when you fly her where she needs to be (like arc-dodgers I think). However, I don't have any, nor played against any U-boats. From average threads in this forum, it seems they're the "new hotness" as Will Smith would say. Maybe I'll understand the "what can help ship X" threads of distress better when I do. Or, maybe, just maybe, I'll learn from you guys how to best them with setups from my current fleet.

"The B-wing is just fine," said me, the super-novice, haha!

Make bank boost red. This way they have a chance against Acewings.

That's interesting...

I think I like that idea. I'm trying to see the downside and not having much luck.

The downside is that the game's balance is very fragile. And it hasn't been until the past year that arc dodging aces are even considered viable. Such a VAST nerf would destroy the balance, completely eliminating an entire aspect of the game.

Then, with arc dodgers no longer a thing, turrets are no longer required, and they will fall to jousting efficient squads. And then with jousting efficient squads being dominate, ordnance would fall off.

And you would be left with W1-esque meta. We've come so far since then to throw it all away on a knee jerk reaction that boost (of all things!) is overpowered.

Only bank boost would be red.

Imagine for a second that when barrel rolling, you have the choice to do a bank barrel roll. Would that be stupid and annoying on every ship? Yes. Bank boost is similarly broken. You shouldn't be able to do freebie 1 banks constantly.

A meta without turrets and Acewings. Oh no what a horrible game that would be where you have to actually account for your opponent's maneuvers instead of just having a higher pilot skill and boosting.

Oh no what a horrible game where you can't even use Vader... you know one of the main characters in all of Star Wars... see this works both ways.

Boost is fine where it is. Really would not like to just play swarms as an Empire player.

Make bank boost red. This way they have a chance against Acewings.

That's interesting...

I think I like that idea. I'm trying to see the downside and not having much luck.

The downside is that the game's balance is very fragile. And it hasn't been until the past year that arc dodging aces are even considered viable. Such a VAST nerf would destroy the balance, completely eliminating an entire aspect of the game.

Then, with arc dodgers no longer a thing, turrets are no longer required, and they will fall to jousting efficient squads. And then with jousting efficient squads being dominate, ordnance would fall off.

And you would be left with W1-esque meta. We've come so far since then to throw it all away on a knee jerk reaction that boost (of all things!) is overpowered.

Only bank boost would be red.

Imagine for a second that when barrel rolling, you have the choice to do a bank barrel roll. Would that be stupid and annoying on every ship? Yes. Bank boost is similarly broken. You shouldn't be able to do freebie 1 banks constantly.

A meta without turrets and Acewings. Oh no what a horrible game that would be where you have to actually account for your opponent's maneuvers instead of just having a higher pilot skill and boosting.

Oh no what a horrible game where you can't even use Vader... you know one of the main characters in all of Star Wars... see this works both ways.

Boost is fine where it is. Really would not like to just play swarms as an Empire player.

You could still play Vader, just when you bank boost you'll get a stress. This way it takes actual thought to play instead of just boosting always at a higher pilot skill.

Can't nerf the Phantom, just get good and throw dice at it. If we nerfed the Phantom we'd just go back to swarms!

Fat turrets aren't broken, we need them to counter arc dodgers.

Quad TLT is busted! This list takes no skill, turrets ruin the game!

Soontir isn't overpowered, he only has 3 health. Just block him bro. Palpatine only works once per turn, and autothrusters /only/ works at range 3.

Triple Jumpmaster is broken! How did FFG not see this? Why do they have EPT slots, they're too good for their points! And if you arc dodge him they have PWT's!

I think some of you got too used to non-playing the game with fat turrets and Boostwings, and anything that rises to that level of shenanigans and can compete with them you guys hate. The game seemed to rise in popularity during wave 5, so makes sense that when the training wheels are taken away everyone gets mad.

I dunno, BBBBZ seems like it would be pretty solid against Potty Time, I mean Triple Toilet Seats. You got two more ships than they do, you can block em and screw up their Deadeye focus for the Torps, you can focus them down one at a time, even if they do have PWTs, just engage them at R3 when you can or range one in their arc if you must. Do what ever it take to win. Don't let the Toilets flush you down the drain.

I think had the Reinforced Deflectors been available to small ships one would probably already see B-wings back on the table as counter to alpha-strike lists (25 points for 11 health if triggered each time).

That said, the main problem for both ships has less to do with the ships themselves and more to do with their preferred prey not being currently in fashion whilst their primary predators are. While not guaranteed, the quickest way to bring them back would probably be to undo the MoV adjustment in regards to large ship scoring so people will feel more comfortable bringing large ships again. I don't think the current meta is entirely friendly towards the traditional "fat" turret" archetype as before (functional ordnance, more ways around once-a-turn mitigation, TLTs, etc.) but it would need testing.

Only bank boost would be red.

Assuming it worked as per your intent, it would actually make Soontir even better since he could get his full focus token stack even after fully committing to repositioning (BR + your stress boost = 2 stress and 2 focus) vs now where he has to choose to turtle or reposition. Also incidentally it would make Tractor Beams even more potent...

I don't know. Ultimately, such a change would hammer a lot of ships unfairly (Punishers, A-wings, non-Soontir Interceptors) and not really impact the ships that seem to cause grief.

A meta without turrets and Acewings. Oh no what a horrible game that would be where you have to actually account for your opponent's maneuvers instead of just having a higher pilot skill and boosting.

Yeah if you take out aces and turrets its pretty much pure math.

Fat turrets aren't broken, we need them to counter arc dodgers.

*sheds a manly nostalgic tear for the days of glorious past, when Turrets beat Dodgers and Dodgers couldn't soak up BBBB firepower and not warp out of existance

teh good ol' times!