Man, as someone who used to swear by VI & ATC on Vader, this Juke/AC combo is incredibly intriguing.

In this meta, Juke/AC is great against U-Boats (need focus for Deadeye/R4), Kanan VCX (AC ignores ability), Wes (no ATC no problem; he still strips the Evade but at least you can use it).

If the rest of your list is capable of taking on Soontir, it's mighty tempting to go with Juke/AC for the consistent damage, double defensive tokens, and token stripping.

In the case of U-Boats, it feels like Vader is still better off from a damage perspective with a crit added to his results than he is with a U-Boat losing an evade, especially if he is at range one. Defensively, AC is stronger.

Yea I agree. I used an X-wing probability calculator to see what the difference is.

Range 1

ATC = 2.6 dmg, 37% chance of keeping focus for defense

Juke/AC = 2.0 dmg, 100% chance of keeping focus for defense

Range 2

ATC = 1.8 dmg, 54% chance of keeping focus for defense

Juke/AC = 1.9 dmg, 100% chance of keeping focus for defense

Again, this is assuming the U-boat doesn't spend focus on defense. Also this ignores the +2 PS advantage the ATC would inevitably have.

I have had a lot of luck using Juke on Barons of the Empire.

On the Rebel side, it's inefficient as all heck, points-wise, but Red Ace with R2-D6 is a good candidate for Juke.

I have had a lot of luck using Juke on Barons of the Empire.

On the Rebel side, it's inefficient as all heck, points-wise, but Red Ace with R2-D6 is a good candidate for Juke.

For a point more, I think I'd rather have R2-D2 on him.

Man, as someone who used to swear by VI & ATC on Vader, this Juke/AC combo is incredibly intriguing.

In this meta, Juke/AC is great against U-Boats (need focus for Deadeye/R4), Kanan VCX (AC ignores ability), Wes (no ATC no problem; he still strips the Evade but at least you can use it).

If the rest of your list is capable of taking on Soontir, it's mighty tempting to go with Juke/AC for the consistent damage, double defensive tokens, and token stripping.

In the case of U-Boats, it feels like Vader is still better off from a damage perspective with a crit added to his results than he is with a U-Boat losing an evade, especially if he is at range one. Defensively, AC is stronger.

Yea I agree. I used an X-wing probability calculator to see what the difference is.

Range 1

ATC = 2.6 dmg, 37% chance of keeping focus for defense

Juke/AC = 2.0 dmg, 100% chance of keeping focus for defense

Range 2

ATC = 1.8 dmg, 54% chance of keeping focus for defense

Juke/AC = 1.9 dmg, 100% chance of keeping focus for defense

Again, this is assuming the U-boat doesn't spend focus on defense. Also this ignores the +2 PS advantage the ATC would inevitably have.

If he's in a list with Palpatine, Vader with ATC at range 1 hits like a U-Boat.

Have been playing with Juke a lot, lately, in a pair of v1s flying alongside Vader, and it just...I dunno.

I mean, it does good but not great. IE., with something like 15 tournament rounds in using the list, I'm sitting at 50/50 wins and losses with it. Which is decent for me, but I did considerably better running AC/DC, for example.

Not sure it's too expensive, per se, but it does kinda feel that way. I mean, if you have the drop on an enemy (they have no return shot on you, so use their focus for just defense rolls), then for all intents and purposes you've bought an EPT that does literally nothing - you convert their evade to a focus, they just spend the focus token and evade anyway. Against higher-skill aces (hi, PS11 Poe), it's again useless, as you tend to have to blow your evade token defensively before you can shoot, leaving your EPT once more doing nothing.

And I guess I have started to see 2 points for an EPT that is only situationally* useful as...kind of expensive.

* And the thing is, it's not "situational" like...you have to know the right place to use it (a la crack shot). No, instead it's "Oh, here I'm facing a list where for the entire game it's going to do literally nothing". For its cost I'm coming to think of crack shot as a better choice, for its ability to force your enemy to overspend defense tokens (including, often enough, a focus - doing the exact same thing Juke would do) for a point less.

I second Juke on Howlrunner.

She needs a defensive boost so she can hand out rerolls, but she's still flying an LN. Juke beats out the usual Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade for me because at least I'm getting an attack mod to go along with my evade token. I ran a list with Howlrunner, 2 Crack Squadrons, and 2 Sigma. I had Juke on Howlie because I had a whopping init bid and was 15 minutes away from registering for a tourney and I could just see that lousy SD failing me so I said screw it and broke out the Juke. I managed my Ion tokens with that list so it must have had some merit. I think if I'd nixed the Sigmas and went for more Crack Squads I'd have won but oh well. The point is Juke on Howlrunner is the best way to run her. Based on my experience anyways, though can you really trust me? I flew 2 generic Phantoms in an SC...

PS: It is sweet sweet candy using Howlrunner rerolls on both your Phantoms though.

No one is mentioning Juke on the V1? Grab that TL and get the Evade for free. Even use it to fire a missile if you want. How about Homing Missile? 4 red dice that you can modify with TL, they can't use Evade token, and you use Juke to reduce their green dice? I'll buy that for a dollar.

because it's not that good

it skews you more towards higher PS by putting more emphasis on the TL, which is more difficult to get on the proper target at lower PS, and ultimately it's just nowhere near as flexible as the Relay FO which can

have juke up after segnors or k-turn

have juke up after bumping

have juke up after focusing (as well as TL)

the two "best", re: most reliable, platforms for juke are the Relay FO and the x7 Tie Defender which simply boast the capability to have an evade up in any game more often than any other ship

Also because the Baron is insanely overpriced IMO.

Also because the Baron is insanely overpriced IMO.

agreed

there's no reason the baron should break the PS scale of 2 points for 2 ps when said scale is already horribly inefficient and the base TAPs profile really isn't that good

I like:

Inquisitor

VI

Title

AT

TIE f/o x3

Juke

Comm Relay

This leaves 5 pts left over for the missile of your choice on Inquisitor and initiative bid (if you'd like). It's fun to fly and hard to kill.

honestly, the biggest problem with juke (apart from the rigidity outside the Tie FO and x7 defender) was that it got hardcountered by Poe and Soonitr's multiple focus benefit

poe's gone; replaced by jumpmasters that never spend their focus on defense

time to shine, perhaps?

Good thing their isn't a way to pass a evade token to a TIE/D title defender, 2 attacks with juke would be a little broken.

If you wanna deny actions of your opponent using Juke, you can really troll them with something like:

Vader, AccCorrector, Juke, TieX1 title

Carnor Jax, PtL

Omega Leader, Juke

Dark Curse

99 Pts

That list isn't annoying...

I ran a tie/fighter trio with Howlrunner, Mauler Mithel, and Scourge all with Juke once. Also had Soontir in there.

Really forced my opponent to pick his poison. The TIE/F trio could do some serious damage, a bit easier to hurt, but had effectively way more hp than Soontir. If they fired at Soontir then my trio juked the hell out of them. No soontir didnt have Juke i know better lol.

Imagine the swarm power if Youngster allowed nearby TIE/F to use his EPT always and not just ones with actions? He'd give 4-6 TIE/Fs a free Juke lol

Sabine - Juke, TLT

To those not convinced of Juke; I've found you need to have 3-4 ships carrying it for it to be worthwhile, which limits the squad choices quite a lot. Omega Leader can get away with running one copy, because his pilot ability pairs naturally with Juke, but other ships need to be able to gang up on an opponent to make the most of Juke. Another option is to have a token Stripper/Denier like Wes or Carnor to stop your opponent modding their dice. That's why I've had the most success with this squad:

34 Carnor w/ PtL, Hull, Royal, AT.

66 (3x) Omega w/ Juke, Comms.

It's a tough list that hits decently hard, and Carnor is a jerk. You also know that 90% of the time your opponent will be gunning for Carnor first, which makes him excellent bait and unlike Soontir, Carnor can still be useful even if he's not shooting.

Even if your list gets whittled down to just one copy of Juke, it still benefits you. Opponents will have to K-turn/reposition sometimes, which Juke will punish them for. If you're shooting first you strip a focus they could use to mod their attack, if you shoot second they need to worry about hanging on to a focus for defence. It's win-win.

Sabine - Juke, TLT

I can vouch for this being incredibly good. I use Jan in the crew slot, because I run Juke + Comms Red Squadron Vets with her, but on her own you could just stick on Crewbacca. Put hull on too if you have the points, for an annoyingly tough ship. Juke and multi-attack weapons like TLT and Cluster Missiles are crazy accurate.

Man, as someone who used to swear by VI & ATC on Vader, this Juke/AC combo is incredibly intriguing.

In this meta, Juke/AC is great against U-Boats (need focus for Deadeye/R4), Kanan VCX (AC ignores ability), Wes (no ATC no problem; he still strips the Evade but at least you can use it).

If the rest of your list is capable of taking on Soontir, it's mighty tempting to go with Juke/AC for the consistent damage, double defensive tokens, and token stripping.

I agree that ATC/VI Vader has a higher average damage output and also combos better with Palp shuttle.

The AC/Juke Vader is better defensively and very consistent on the offense - dice don't hurt you so much even if they're pretty terrible. I think it's a choice to consider for non-palp builds.

However, what really makes the difference is the alpha strike meta. The standard ATC Vader does not really alpha strike. Prockets are of debatable value (as someone wrote, it's 1 extra dice in exchange for one guaranteed crit on the regular R1 attack), and getting into R1 on the first pass can be risky (blockable). Doesn't really combo with any other munitions.

Conversely, AC/Juke Vader combos GREAT with cluster missiles. After his opening salvo, you will have likely burned the shields off of a Jumpmaster. That really makes a difference for me, as then things like a crackblack miniswarm can reliably finish the damned thing off. Which turns a 50/50 matchup into a decent matchup.

To those not convinced of Juke; I've found you need to have 3-4 ships carrying it for it to be worthwhile, which limits the squad choices quite a lot. Omega Leader can get away with running one copy, because his pilot ability pairs naturally with Juke, but other ships need to be able to gang up on an opponent to make the most of Juke. Another option is to have a token Stripper/Denier like Wes or Carnor to stop your opponent modding their dice. That's why I've had the most success with this squad:

34 Carnor w/ PtL, Hull, Royal, AT.

66 (3x) Omega w/ Juke, Comms.

It's a tough list that hits decently hard, and Carnor is a jerk. You also know that 90% of the time your opponent will be gunning for Carnor first, which makes him excellent bait and unlike Soontir, Carnor can still be useful even if he's not shooting.

Even if your list gets whittled down to just one copy of Juke, it still benefits you. Opponents will have to K-turn/reposition sometimes, which Juke will punish them for. If you're shooting first you strip a focus they could use to mod their attack, if you shoot second they need to worry about hanging on to a focus for defence. It's win-win.

Sabine - Juke, TLT

I can vouch for this being incredibly good. I use Jan in the crew slot, because I run Juke + Comms Red Squadron Vets with her, but on her own you could just stick on Crewbacca. Put hull on too if you have the points, for an annoyingly tough ship. Juke and multi-attack weapons like TLT and Cluster Missiles are crazy accurate.

I'm gonna give the Carnor list a few tries, looks like a lot of fun.

Made a different rebel list to try though:

Sabine with Juke TLT Chewie

2X Green squads Test pilot Juke AT PTL Refit

1X Green squad Test pilot Juke Adaptability Refit

Close as I could get to the Carnor list for rebels, not sure if it would work better than two T 70's though, would be fun to try out. Didn't have points for three of the PTL greens (even without chewie) so the other can be a blocker or more Juke if he can do it without needing to reposition.

Might try Wes in Sabine's place if that list doesn't work well.

I'm gonna give the Carnor list a few tries, looks like a lot of fun.

Made a different rebel list to try though:

Sabine with Juke TLT Chewie

2X Green squads Test pilot Juke AT PTL Refit

1X Green squad Test pilot Juke Adaptability Refit

Close as I could get to the Carnor list for rebels, not sure if it would work better than two T 70's though, would be fun to try out. Didn't have points for three of the PTL greens (even without chewie) so the other can be a blocker or more Juke if he can do it without needing to reposition.

Might try Wes in Sabine's place if that list doesn't work well.

I can vouch that the Carnor list is quite fun to play, those Juke-FOs can take a real beating, with their evade banking and extra shield. They're quite difficult to kill in one pass, after which they have a pseudo-regen with comms. As always, Carnor is a jerk that everyone hates.

For the rebel version Wes is an excellent choice in the current meta. Not only will he help you get the most from Juke, but he's also great against all the ordnance currently in the meta. My Rebel version of the Carnor list (that I am yet to try) is pretty similar to yours:

34 Wes w/ VI, BB8, Fletchette, Integrated.

66 (3x) Green w/ PtL, Refit, Test, Juke.

I do like Sabine though, with her TLT, she should be able to knock off a focus anyway, and she's brutal against PS1-4 ships.