Imagine a situation involving a multiplayer computer game. The Base game cost $40. This is all that is needed for someone to play the game. However there is also the $80 premium version, that along with a bunch of bonus skins has a 5% permanent damage boost.

What's the "base game" in X-Wing?

Something is Pay To Win if it provides an advantage over a "base game" player for just money. We're in agreement on that, yes?

What then is our base game player? This is the point on which Rapture and I fundamentally disagreed.

Exactly correct. I agree completely.

There is no base game. No one is at a disadvantage based on what purchases other people made because in order to play you have to make an equal amount of purchases.

Yep. There's no baseline someone can point to, not even the core set. X-Wing is, by design, a collectible game. That means you choose the pieces that you will own. It doesn't mean the person who buys more wins, which is what "pay to win" denotes.

You'd also be real hard pressed to make the argument that FFG obsoletes older SKUs in favor of newer ones. If anything, they work real hard to make everything as viable as they can without watering every ship down in to being the exact same thing with a different skin. You can't even argue that Imperial Veterans is evidence that the game is pay-to-win because it's a fix to a broken ship, not something that obsoletes an otherwise viable ship.

What about stuff that hasn't released yet? I playing a lot of Imperial verts stuff in causal play atm. I will get it when it comes out but I want to see how it handles before I want to commit to tournaments. I do warn my opponent what I have and they are ok with it. never had issues. I also did the same thing with the advance fix before the raider came out but got it the first day it was out!

It's akin to the argument over paying a musical artist for their work or simply copying it from another source without investment.

But if this is what you think this is about then I (and probably some others) have failed to explain ourselves clearly enough.

My personal experience is of a quite new player. I've started with the new starter pack, then played a few games with my son and bought an extension before going to a first store championship.

Then, in a couple of months, I bought the following:

Rebels aces / Imp aces / Falcon / interceptor / hwk / k-wing / Shuttle / Decimator / Tie Phantom / Tie Bomber / Tie advanced / The inquisitor / Dash / tie fighter fo / x-wing t70 / core set

And I probably forgot to mention one or two.

This is just to try to show that I'm not at all expecting to play without buying/paying. And I'm happy to buy a ship that I want to fly.

The discussion for me is not around should we pay ffg to play: that's a given for me. The discussion is why should I need to buy an Epic ship to play the Tie Advanced I already bought. Or why should I need to buy other ships to play the 3 interceptors I bought? I may buy the Epic ship, but I would hope it would be because I want to fly it! Not because of a twisted way to force it on me.

Hopefully this should make my viewpoint a bit clearer (not trying to convince anyone here or stating that I'm right and others are wrong: just trying to explain why I think proxying of certain cards are perfectly OK in this context).

Cheers

When I started playing back around Wave 3 I purchased whatever I needed for the game, I can't recall borrowing cards off people, I was just fortunate that I could just about afford what I wanted to get. A very good friend of mine was interested in getting into the game, and for 6 months, I provided him with the models and cards to play, and I won't lie over the 6 months it annoyed me in the end, it was in casual play I will admit. This is because every time I attended our game night, I couldn't shoot off early if I wanted, because I'd have to wait for him to finish his game before I could leave. Considering I catch a bus to get home that was a timing nightmare. To his credit I always took priority if it came to upgrades and ships and I appreciate that.

Then a second friend wanted to get in and do the same thing, and it started to get a little ridiculous, one of them would forget to pack a dial away, or an ID token would go missing etc. however it wasn't long since the first friend was about to actually start buying into the game.

He was waiting for Scum to come along (no surprise there) and eventually they did come out in Feb of last year and so around December he started to pick up his own core set and other items. The second friend of mine picked up a Rebel aces and YT-2400 and started to run those regularly with proxied cards. Since then the first friend rarely asks me to borrow anything. Over the months my policy of lending ships has gotten stricter and stricter. Mostly its just a tournaments since at casual events, who cares if you have the cards, so long as you have the ship, dial, base card etc, upgrades can very easily be proxied no problem. At tournaments some individuals started to repeatedly ask for the same cards at consecutive tournaments, thats when I started to say "Okay, you can borrow something twice for a tourney, but that's it" my logic being....if you use that upgrade as often as you seemingly need to...then you need to own it and stop using other peoples.

Specifically the player wanted to borrow 3 R7 astromechs off me, and did this at two tournaments, and then asked about the third. I asked him "why don't you buy another couple of E-Wing expansions?" his response "I don't want to buy a ship that I won't use." my response will probably draw backlash, but I stand by it: "Tough ****". We've all had to buy expansions that we may never use to get cards that we do want to use, that is the business model that FFG run on. I purchased my E-Wings so I could field 100 points worth of them, and get more advanced sensor cards for my B-Wings. I ponied up the cash for it when my job doesn't even pay very well. By that time I was feeling like my generosity was being taken advantage of heavily and that people were simply not buying because they could save money by borrowing it from me and not even considering buying the ships for themselves. I felt justified in doing what I did.

I have stopped loaning things out, full stop. In casual it shouldn't matter, just proxy the cards and be done with it. However I don't really do the tournament scene much anymore, I still attend the events because I am doing commentary, but if I am loaning stuff out it means I have to bring my card folders (which are not light) in my satchel (which is not very large) on the bus with me, it is a lot of effort to go through to be worried that a card would go walkabouts, or to add something else I have to think of as well as my responsibilities for the day.

The discussion for me is not around should we pay ffg to play: that's a given for me. The discussion is why should I need to buy an Epic ship to play the Tie Advanced I already bought. Or why should I need to buy other ships to play the 3 interceptors I bought? I may buy the Epic ship, but I would hope it would be because I want to fly it! Not because of a twisted way to force it on me.

The TIE Advanced is not unusable without the Raider, granted it is not a very competitive ship, however I have known someone to run a pre-Raider Vader and do exceptionally well with him. If the TIE Advanced's title and unique upgrade does play into your plans, then you have to get your hands on those cards, and there you have two choices, ebay, or buy a Raider. This ties into your other comment about the interceptors and buying other ships. New upgrades come in new packs, how else would you expect them to get the new upgrades out to you? This is not new to X-Wing at all...most expansions have unique cards that can only be found in one or two expansions, Autothrusters in the StarViper is a classic example. What about BB-8? If you want him you have to but a Force Awakens Core Set, or an original core if you want R2-D2.

This is not a new concept, and I will be cynical; yes it is a way for FFG to make money. FFG from what I have seen have integrity...but they are also a business and they have to make money, not a lot of people were very interested in Epic, some didn't even want to give it a try, I wasn't that interested in it but I still got a Raider so I could get my TIE Adv fix, and it encouraged me to give it a try and I actually enjoyed it. I got access to a new experience and new upgrades.

Is it pay to win? It's pay to play arguably since you need to pay to get the ship or upgrades and thus field them. Pay to Win? Eh...a TIE Advanced can still be played and played well without the title, the title just gives you more options. It doesn't make it pay to win though since the TIE Advanced upgrades aren't uber op or anything, they just give the ship its own unique 'thing' and trick up its sleeve. The TIE Advanced is the only ship in the game that can guarantee a crit with only a 1 point cost increase. It's a bit like how the A-Wings 'unique thing' is its ability to have two elite pilot talents.

One of the most strange aspects about this subject is that many people who argue that new cards and combos are good, and that you moraly need originals even to play casual, are strongly against house made cards. One example.

Last year I posted in this forum than according to RPG background A wing and Defender pilots were among the best. But only PS 1 and 3 generics. So we created PS 6 A wing and Defender generics ( Purple Squadron and Diamond ). It was. horrendous, against the rules, Defender pilots were low PS because the ship is very complex and because of this, low PS. Jajaja.

Now the same players are overexcited because FFG gives us Glaive Squadron.

We need to use our imagination a little more often. If not playing tournament, proxy, adapt, improve.

against house made cards

The reasoning for this is pretty simple. People may complain about the balance but that's because they're comparing it to perfection. Nevertheless, the rules and cards are playtested and designed professionally, and perhaps as importantly by an impartial third party.

What balance assurance do you get with house material? A win or a loss in a game suddenly is no longer one player outplayed the other, the question of how much the untested material affected it is suddenly an elephant in the room. It no longer feels fair.

Playtested and designed profesionally...yes...

Compare ships and do your maths. And adapt and improve.

Is it okay to proxy tokens?

I hear people throwing around things like stealing, bankrupting Fantasy Flight, etc. for proxying a few cards. Aren't we exaggerating a lot here?

Although many have sarcastically called this a card game with miniatures, including me. It truly is, at it's heart, a miniatures game and the cards portion do not even fit the 'collectible' definition. Where does proxies stop? Where ever Fantasy Flight says it stops. If you play Vassal you have co-opped the entire IP of the game even if you don't have the physical pieces. Applied Perspective, Litko, Corsec, etc. all make good products. So where is the line? Again where Fantasy Flight says it is. There are other companies that squash any on-line or reprints of their cards and or rules. Fantasy flight has pngs of most of their cards and pdfs of most of their rules on-line and readily available. If Fantasy Flight didn't want us to proxy they would say so. But for now it is allowing the game to reach far more players using squads they might otherwise not be able to even try than it is restricting it.

So lighted up, chill out and if you don't like proxying don't. But the 'honor' your defending is really some self defined personal preference guised as false righteousness.

I don't mind players proxying cards, but I do expect a proxy. A printed list, or a single card shared between multiple ships starts to break down the mechanics of the game, such as flipping over / covering destroyed upgrades. And how do you handle dual sided cards? Also, it is much more difficult to track your opponents state when all they have is a printed list (shield counts, damage). It's much easier to tell which ships are damaged and which upgrades are on that ship at a glance when they are all represented properly by cards. If you're going to proxy, at least put a little effort into it and proxy accurately. Don't make your shortage of resources into a burden / disadvantage for the person you are playing against.

Imagine a situation involving a multiplayer computer game. The Base game cost $40. This is all that is needed for someone to play the game. However there is also the $80 premium version, that along with a bunch of bonus skins has a 5% permanent damage boost.

What's the "base game" in X-Wing?

Something is Pay To Win if it provides an advantage over a "base game" player for just money. We're in agreement on that, yes?

What then is our base game player? This is the point on which Rapture and I fundamentally disagreed.

Exactly correct. I agree completely.

There is no base game. No one is at a disadvantage based on what purchases other people made because in order to play you have to make an equal amount of purchases.

It costs way less to field 100 points of ships than field a competitive 100 point squad. Therefore people who pay less are at a disadvantage

That is simply untrue.

You can field a competitive 100 point squad for as little as $70. That being a TFA core for Poe and a YT-1300 with Han. You can't put together any other 100 point list for that little.

The worse possible list you could build rebel side is 6 naked HWK's, and that would cost you $130. So the worse list you could build costs more than a fairly competitive one. The most basic list you could make 3 X-Wings or 6 Tie Fighters would cost $120 for 3 core sets.

Anyone who wants to spend as little as possible on this game can be quite careful about what they buy and put together some very good lists. It's not Pay-to-Win when one person spends $150 on random ships with no consideration to what list they're going to build and someone else selectively buys $200 worth of ships that will have good synergy.

But you are apparently so caught up in winning an argument neither if you are capable of critical thinking on this subject.

It costs way less to field 100 points of ships than field a competitive 100 point squad. Therefore people who pay less are at a disadvantage

That is simply untrue.You can field a competitive 100 point squad for as little as $70. That being a TFA core for Poe and a YT-1300 with Han.

And how does a non-regen Poe with non-c-3p0 Han fare against Triple Scout and Palp Aces(the two most common archetypes at the top of the competitive meta nowadays)? I doubt you will winmore than 1 game in 10 unless you are significantly more skilled than your opponent's.

Casual games, proxy and sharing upgrades is alright, but don't be deceived; this is a collecting game and thus you must pay to play. That is fine, we all earn money to enjoy things in life and build up a collection. People who don't have that expectation are only deceiving themselves, FFG games release ships mostly complete and expensive supliments afterwards these days and as long as people buy that is all that matters. I am fine with that, I have brought what I want and snubbed what I don't.

The one thing I said that I wouldn't do is buy ships for cards. Thus I look on the secondary market for those most of the time.

It costs way less to field 100 points of ships than field a competitive 100 point squad. Therefore people who pay less are at a disadvantage

That is simply untrue.

You can field a competitive 100 point squad for as little as $70. That being a TFA core for Poe and a YT-1300 with Han. You can't put together any other 100 point list for that little.

The worse possible list you could build rebel side is 6 naked HWK's, and that would cost you $130. So the worse list you could build costs more than a fairly competitive one. The most basic list you could make 3 X-Wings or 6 Tie Fighters would cost $120 for 3 core sets.

Anyone who wants to spend as little as possible on this game can be quite careful about what they buy and put together some very good lists. It's not Pay-to-Win when one person spends $150 on random ships with no consideration to what list they're going to build and someone else selectively buys $200 worth of ships that will have good synergy.

But you are apparently so caught up in winning an argument neither if you are capable of critical thinking on this subject.

I get that there are varying opinions on what constitutes as pay-to-win, and (especially since it's a Friday) banging our heads against each other probably isn't going to resolve much.

But I guess the reason why I don't see X-wing as pay-to-win is simply because I don't think overall that the chances of a player winning are dependent on how much they spent.

In the games that I play, winning is largely dictated by a combination of skill (precision, predicting, list building), dice (which can include luck), and matchups.

Only in the matchups category would I say spending matters. But even then, if a player chooses to field 4 T65s and doesn't have the cash to pay for 4 Integrated Astromechs; then really their list-building or purchasing priority is more to blame than FFG's design - assuming the goal is to win (over romanticism for example). Said player could just have easily fielded 8 x APs for example.

This is of course assuming that the new player knew that the T65 was underpowered. Let's be honest, most new players won't know that until it's too late. So from that perspective, I can see why they'd think X-wing is P2W. Same with new players who pick up an Interceptor kit without knowing about autothrusters. But the truth is that they are many competitive lists that can be purchased for cheap. It just requires some foresight and research.

Myself, I haven't saved up enough for the Raider. But never have I said "you only won because you spent more money than me" after losing to a Palp list or something else that is Raider-exclusive. That doesn't mean I don't wish I have the option to field Palp, but it doesn't mean I don't have limitless equally competitive options.

Again, it's only my opinion - but that's why I don't consider it pay-to-win.

I doubt you will winmore than 1 game in 10 unless you are significantly more skilled than your opponent's.

You're welcome to your opinion no matter how wrong it is. But again I'm not going to bother actually discussing anything with someone who's closed their mind and whose only point is to try to win a pointless argument.

I pointed out facts and you simply refuse to acknowledge them, and continue to twist things to suit your point of view.

I doubt you will winmore than 1 game in 10 unless you are significantly more skilled than your opponent's.

You're welcome to your opinion no matter how wrong it is. But again I'm not going to bother actually discussing anything with someone who's closed their mind and whose only point is to try to win a pointless argument.I pointed out facts and you simply refuse to acknowledge them, and continue to twist things to suit your point of view.

And I have done the same (pointed put facts that you chose to ignore).

No matter how you try to spin it,a list built from the TFA core and Millennium Falcon is worse than Palp Aces and Triple Scouts. Otherwise, it would be winning regionals and system opens (like Palp Aces and Triple Scouts do).

Also, let's try something easier: do you disagree that adding c-3p0 on Han and R2-D2/R5-P9 on Poe makes the Han/Poe list better?

But I guess the reason why I don't see X-wing as pay-to-win is simply because I don't think overall that the chances of a player winning are dependent on how much they spent.

I think that's why I take exception to the pay-to-claim... Because to me, it's nothing more than an excuse for why someone got beat. It really comes off as the whining of a poor loser. I know that sounds harsh, but I think anyone who acts like the only reason they lose a game is because the other person paid more, rather than played better deserves it.

I simply have no tolerance for bad losers. If someone can't make a list for a reasonable amount of money by selectively buying things that work together, that has a decent chance of beating the current hot meta lets... That's either a failing on their part or a sign something is truly wrong with the game as a whole.

For example LordfBlades claims that Poe without regen and Han without 3PO can't compete. Neither of those are actually true, and the fact that he thinks so says everything that needs to be said.

For example LordfBlades claims that Poe without regen and Han without 3PO can't compete. Neither of those are actually true, and the fact that he thinks so says everything that needs to be said.

Then by all means prove me wrong. Show me a list like that in the cut at a regional or better.

Then by all means prove me wrong. Show me a list like that in the cut at a regional or better.

That'd assume that every possible competitive list is represented.

What's the cheapest competitive list? I don't know, you don't know. Because pretty much nobody's looking for it. High level players have usually been at this for a while and have no qualms about buying a lot of stuff. The only players looking for the cheapest competitive list are the new ones, and they're not likely to be making cuts at regionals because they're new.

Then by all means prove me wrong. Show me a list like that in the cut at a regional or better.

That'd assume that every possible competitive list is represented.

What's the cheapest competitive list? I don't know, you don't know. Because pretty much nobody's looking for it. High level players have usually been at this for a while and have no qualms about buying a lot of stuff. The only players looking for the cheapest competitive list are the new ones, and they're not likely to be making cuts at regionals because they're new.

If Han/Poe is not showing up at the top, it means that either top players aren't fielding it (because they consider it weaker than whatever they decide to field instead) or they are fielding it and losing, proving that the list is weaker than what their opponents are fielding.

Even for experienced players, cost is a factor and can drive what sort of build you see. Triple U-boats costs a lot unless you have a great deal of sets already. Omega Leader is pretty popular because he's good but also a big factor for many people is that you can get all the stuff you need for the optimal build in one expansion pack.

Edit: Obviously top players will play optimised lists, whatever that may require. But for example, for me, I can run a palp aces build quite easily with the nice selection of common ships I already own. Triple U-boats involves a heavy buy-in as it requires spamming some rare cards. If both are reasonably equally competitive, the palp aces is much easier for me to run and doesn't involve buying a bunch of useless ships. They might be equally expensive to a totally new player but for a competitive player on a budget, palp aces is easier to achieve and that might be a factor behind how popular they are in regional results.

The wolf pack has never interested me. Thank goodness. That's a lot of $€£

If you want to play and win competitively X-Wing is an expensive game. It is pay to win in some respects. The more you pay doesn't necessarily mean you'll win more. Sure you can play and win casual games on the cheap but if you go and look at the cheapest list which one a regional it's a BroBots list and you'd need.

IG 2000 x2

Lambda Shuttle (Adv Sensor and HLC)

Starviper (AT)

TIE D x2

Buying these online not including tax or shipping you're looking at $85. This is the minimum rock bottom competitive price and really it's only marginally competitive. Look at a list like A-Wing Swarm and you're into the hundreds of dollars for a single list.

I've got no problem whatsoever with players proxying cards (unless I know them and they're just cheapskates), even at the tournament level.

New argument for P2W. Unlike computer games I compare to, FFG release blocks of expansions rather than a single big one.

So let's consider the waves as single products. Now any wave + the base game is enough to field a good few lists, two waves and you've got a lot of variation.

Now consider that most starting players buy a bunch of wave one and two. Because that's where all of the famous ships are, and for some players that's all they want to buy because they don't like the EU enough. Also lets consider the player that brought in back when wave one and two was all that's available.

Give me a currently viable list you can make from wave 1&2.