I find it strange that the main core book (not the beginner box) cites that a specialization can only increase the force rating once or twice, which by the way replaces the "raise any one attribute by one" talent from Edge of the Empire. Considering how many different ways one can spend rolled force points and at best a single die will yield 2 points. This system obviously moves the Force Rating back to attributes. Can it be raised during character creation or can you only raise it by the talent? If you can raise it in chargen, how much would it cost?

Also, I noticed that not every specialization gets that increase Force Rating talent. Is this an oversight? Strangely enough it is the Sage (and not the Healer) that gets 2 of these talents. The specializations that does not get it are the Guardian: Soresu Defender, the Mystic: Makashi Duelist; the Seeker: Ataru Striker, Sentinel: Shien Expert, and the Warrior: Shii-Cho Knight. So according to the mechanics, these types would have to cross specialize, (20 points) and follow the most direct path, the cheapest being 50 or 75 points worth of progression, so any of these classes will have to spend 70 - 95 points before seeing their next raise in Force Rating.

The way this mechanic is set up, it is difficult to have "force dice to commit" let alone have that player be an exception to their class, no "The Force is strong with this one." It certainly forestalls any Force Power with a prerequisite of 2+.

So is my understanding correct or am I missing something?

Thank you.

Since there are so many questions, I broke down my response with headings...

Getting a higher Force Rating and specializations

The Increase Force Rating talent and Dedication talent are two different things. Force Rating is not at ability like Brawn, Agility, etc, so it need not follow the same rules, and by extension, Dedication can't give you a higher Force Rating. Nor can you buy a higher Force Rating during character creation, except buying the talent during that time. The Increase Force Rating talent is the only way to do so, but you can take it as many times as you can access the talent (0-2 times per tree).

Some specializations do indeed get two of the Increase Force Rating talent, but the ones that are shorted in that aspect have Dedication in the tree. The only exceptions are yes, the Lightsaber-related trees. No talent tree represents a complete character, but a facet of a character, and learning to use a lightsaber well means you're not studying the Force as much, so yes, you'll have to get a new specialization if you want more than Force Rating 1. This helps balance out the power that comes with wielding a lightsaber, since even an unmodded saber will cut through minions like butter.

Options to be better with the Force

Yes, this does make the Force seem a bit weak, but you have options:

--Sage and Seer (Consular & Mystic, respectively) put Force Rating 2 within reach at character creation, costing 60 and 70 XP to acquire it. Expensive, but feasible, and you'll get some nice talents along the way. This will allow you to have Force dice to commit here and there, and reflects "The Force is strong with this one" idea just fine. It's just going to cost you in other areas, just as getting Brawn up to 5 will cost you too...

--Additionally, the Force is powerful, even with just Force Rating 1, as you can always do something with it, if you're willing to call on the Dark Side on a botched roll. Force Rating 1 is enough to deal 10 damage with the Move power, or you could commit that die on Sense to upgrade the difficulty of the first two attacks made against you each round.

The Feel

Force Rating 2 means the Dark Side is less of a temptation, so you can pull of moderate Force stunts pretty often, and major feats of power are accessible, especially if you use the Dark Side. Really, you just have to think about it a bit. Luke Skywalker is pretty much at Force Rating 1 until maybe Return of the Jedi, but the fanciest thing he does with the Force is lift 3PO, so he might not even have Force Rating 2 at that point. He does pretty well on just committing his one die wisely, and when his powers fizzle out, it's because he chose not to call on the Dark Side.

The thing to bear in mind is that F&D is not designed for creating the Jedi of the Prequels - it creates characters akin to Luke and Rey (Rey arguably having Force Rating 2, what with how quickly her powers grow). If you, however, wanted to totally master the Force, you could, in the course of a campaign, take both Force Rating increases from Sage and Seer, getting up to Force Rating 5 (AKA Godlike), at which point you'll never have to worry about Force powers fizzling or the Dark Side. You'll pretty much be Yoda, minus the saber combat.

Healer

And to address your question about the Healer, the Heal power lets you spend one pip to heal wounds equal to Intellect (eventually Intellect + Medicine), but you can't buy that multiple times, so you only need the one pip. Two pips could activate a really lackluster +1 wound healed with the Strength upgrade, where Dedication used on Intellect, or just more ranks in Medicine for cheaper, is a much faster, more efficient way to become a good healer.

There is no talent in Edge of the Empire, or anywhere else, that reads "raise any one attribute by one." You're probably thinking of Dedication, which raises any one characteristic by +1; the language in the game is quite clear and open in that characteristics are Brawn, Agility, Intellect, Cunning, Willpower and Presence, and never have they called a character's Force rating a characteristic. The Force Rating talent, which raises your Force rating by +1, has been in every book (found in the Force-Sensitive Exile spec in Edge of the Empire, the Force-Sensitive Emergent spec in Age of Rebellion, and X number of specializations in Force and Destiny). I guess you could say Force rating is and has always been an attribute, in the same way wounds, strain, soak, encumbrance, and defense are, but it is not a characteristic .

Pretty sure those 5 specializations that lack Force Rating were deliberate. I'm not sure why the Sage having 2 Force Rating talents is weird (Seer has 2 as well).

So is my understanding correct or am I missing something?

Yes.

MuttonchopMac pretty much hit all the nails on the head.

The main reason the LS Form specs don't have a Force Rating increase is because they offer the very useful and quite powerful "bonk" talents that can allow a PC to inflict some hefty damage on their opponent's turn. I've played an Ataru Striker that did some pretty hefty damage with his tricked-out lightsaber (fully-modded Dantari crystal with superior hilt customization) thanks to Improved Parry, since he could easily have an opponent rolling at least two challenge dice on an attack, and frequently got a free shot in thanks to the attacker rolling a Despair. Niman Disciple has a Force Rating talent, but no Improved Parry or Improved Reflect, but then Niman's focus is on employing the Force in combat.

Another thing to remember is that the Jedi of the Prequels are not starting XP characters. Even Ahsoka Tano of TCW likely entered play as a Knight Level PC, just so that she could keep up with the vastly more experienced Anakin and Obi-Wan. Kenobi of TPM and Kanan of Rebels' "Spark of Resistance" could be shoehorned into being Knight Level, but more likely they're both highly experienced characters.

The PCs in Force and Destiny also don't have the benefit of having spent their entire childhood and adolescence training as a Jedi that vast majority of the Jedi seen in the Prequel era have. In many cases, the PCs have very little knowledge of the Jedi or the Force, being only slightly better informed than Luke was at the start of ANH.

As for Sage and Seer, as noted both specs lack a Dedication talent, but both of them are intended to be akin to "Force wizards" in that their big focus is on using the Force, where most other specs have a more balanced approach, with five of the LS Form specs taking more of a physical approach due to their focus on lightsaber combat.

The Increase Force Rating talent is the only way to do so, but you can take it as many times as you can access the talent (0-2 times per tree).

Just to make it extra clear: You can only buy each Force Rating Talent a single time (you cannot buy the same one more than once) so you must take at least two Specializations to get to a Force Rating of four (4).

One of the bigger complaints about WotC's Star Wars Saga Edition was that Force user PCs (especially those that began with their first level in the Jedi class) were far more powerful than other PCs, due in large part to how skill checks interacted with defense scores. And it was a concern with all the prior Star Wars RPGs as well, that at some point the "Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards" trope came into play, and the Jedi PCs wound up stealing the show because they were vastly more powerful than the muggles in the group.

FFG has done an excellent job of avoiding this problem, largely by making the players earn their power in the Force, invariably by having to take multiple specializations to get to the higher end of the spectrum. But at the same time, while you won't doing jaw-dropping displays of Force ability with Force Rating 1, you can still use it effectively, especially if you commit that Force die to power effects like Sense's defensive Control upgrade or various talents that allow to commit a Force die to gain an effect. Plus, you have to be willing to occasionally take some Conflict and strain in order to use those dark side pips, making it a question of "how badly do I want this Force effect to go off?" Which itself ties nicely into the concept that frivolous use of the Force can be a temptation to the dark side, as the Force user comes to really on it more and more until the see the Force as simply a tool to be used, a point of view that's very much in line with Sith doctrines.

The way this mechanic is set up, it is difficult to have "force dice to commit" let alone have that player be an exception to their class, no "The Force is strong with this one." It certainly forestalls any Force Power with a prerequisite of 2+.

Patience, Youngling Don't underestimate the power of that Commit. I would argue that the game does a great job of embodying the "Luke path", which would seem the most natural path to learning the Force imho. You spend your first years building Sense and Enhance, committing Force dice or boosting skills instead of rolling Force dice. Enhance is extremely potent, letting the character use the Force in a variety of ways, all of which also have the benefit of staying under the Imperial radar. Once you hit FR2 things start to open up. You can still benefit from the Commit, but also recover your dropped pistol, or roll both dice and ensure a Leap to medium range.

Sure, if you want to be Starkiller out of the gate you'll be disappointed, but personally I'm grateful the game doesn't cater to that by default.

Pretty much what the others above have said. It's really not that bad at FR 1, and really doesn't take very long to get to FR 2. I'm GMing a 2 person game, and the "newb jedi" of the party, who I built for the PC to be less XP invested than the Padawan, got to FR 2 before the Padawan. To give you a comparison from the movies, the Padawan was slightly less powerful than Obi-Wan in Phantom Menace, and the other character was basically like Luke from New Hope. The player just steadily invested XP over a handful of sessions, and bought down to FR 2. And boom, the character was now able to do some **** impressive stuff with Move, and was consistently able to roll sufficient Light Side pips to not risk much in the way of Conflict. Sure it still came up, but not much.

And this was in the Artisan tree. One that isn't super built to be a Force powerhouse like Sage or Seer. So yeah, I wouldn't worry about it much.

The big issue is that most players think they will be playing Obi-Wan from Phantom Menace when they make their character. The reality is they are more akin to the kids waving saber sticks around, while Yoda talks to them. Yes, I could say "Like Luke from New Hope", but I get more enjoyment out of comparing the player characters to 4 year old children playing with sticks.

Mutton and Dono pretty much covered it.

Just to add an additional point though: In this system "the force" isn't just force dice and powers, there's also those force talents . A lot of things other systems would turn into a power FFG just made into an always on talent.

So a maxed out lightsaber master with an FR of 1 is still technically "Strong in the Force" he just doesn't have to roll force dice to prove it. He gets his Forceness in the form of a blue die here, removed black dice there, reflect so high he can actually ignore damage often, and special moves that no other character can do.

Great responses, thank you all.

I just hope they start targeting the Old Republic for future releases. I like having the established Jedi and other force using traditions around but I also enjoy playing out the slow decline of the Jedi Council (mind you, I run more often then I play). While I am not looking at Starkiller level of play, I am certainly looking at the Old Republic timeline, including the Mandalorean war.

Thanks again for all the helpful advice!

Great responses, thank you all.

I just hope they start targeting the Old Republic for future releases. I like having the established Jedi and other force using traditions around but I also enjoy playing out the slow decline of the Jedi Council (mind you, I run more often then I play). While I am not looking at Starkiller level of play, I am certainly looking at the Old Republic timeline, including the Mandalorean war.

Thanks again for all the helpful advice!

Don't count on it.

FFG is to some degree beholden to the license owners, and Disney is intent on focusing very heavily on the classic era of the original films and TFA/sequel era, to the point of brushing a lot of the prequel-era and earlier material out of the way, if not entirely under the carpet.

That may change in a few years, especially once the sequel film trilogy is finished, but odds are that "Old Republic" material that Disney does will look nothing like the MMO, which itself is really just a re-hash of the original trilogy's Rebels vs. Empire, only with the Rebels on a more equal footing.

As KungFuFerret noted, the game as-is is very easy to adapt to that time frame without needing much (if anything) in terms of official rules support. You've just got to dial down your preconceptions of how "powerful" a Jedi or Sith should be by the time they hit the galactic scene, which in many cases means dispatching of the MMO's notions of how the Force works, which bears more similarity to fantasy spellcasting than anything else.

I just hope they start targeting the Old Republic for future releases. I like having the established Jedi and other force using traditions around but I also enjoy playing out the slow decline of the Jedi Council (mind you, I run more often then I play). While I am not looking at Starkiller level of play, I am certainly looking at the Old Republic timeline, including the Mandalorean war.

Once you're comfortable with the rules, you can always start a new campaign at a higher level of XP. "Knight Level" gives you +150 after chargen, but you really can set it to any amount you want.

Also, I noticed that not every specialization gets that increase Force Rating talent. Is this an oversight? Strangely enough it is the Sage (and not the Healer) that gets 2 of these talents. The specializations that does not get it are the Guardian: Soresu Defender, the Mystic: Makashi Duelist; the Seeker: Ataru Striker, Sentinel: Shien Expert, and the Warrior: Shii-Cho Knight. So according to the mechanics, these types would have to cross specialize, (20 points) and follow the most direct path, the cheapest being 50 or 75 points worth of progression, so any of these classes will have to spend 70 - 95 points before seeing their next raise in Force Rating.

It's worth pointing out that in this system no character is meant to be 100% one specialization. Everyone is expected and encouraged to cross specialize. Whether we're talking about F&D, AoR or EotE the entire system is set up with the idea that you're not sticking to just one specialization or just one career type.

Also, I noticed that not every specialization gets that increase Force Rating talent. Is this an oversight? Strangely enough it is the Sage (and not the Healer) that gets 2 of these talents. The specializations that does not get it are the Guardian: Soresu Defender, the Mystic: Makashi Duelist; the Seeker: Ataru Striker, Sentinel: Shien Expert, and the Warrior: Shii-Cho Knight. So according to the mechanics, these types would have to cross specialize, (20 points) and follow the most direct path, the cheapest being 50 or 75 points worth of progression, so any of these classes will have to spend 70 - 95 points before seeing their next raise in Force Rating.

It's worth pointing out that in this system no character is meant to be 100% one specialization. Everyone is expected and encouraged to cross specialize. Whether we're talking about F&D, AoR or EotE the entire system is set up with the idea that you're not sticking to just one specialization or just one career type.

If you look at the heroes of the original films, you can see this quite clearly.

Han Solo is both a Pilot and a Scoundrel. Lando is a Gambler, Charmer, and maybe a dash of Pilot. Luke himself is some bizarre mish-mash of specs, either starting as an Explorer/Fringer or Ace/Pilot while also picking up Force Emergent (my best guess since it generally makes him tougher in combat) before moving into a LS Form spec (possibly Shien Expert and/or Shii-Cho Knight). Jango Fett is a blend of Bounty Hunter's Gadgeteer and Smuggler's Gunslinger.

That said, it is possible for a PC to stay with a single specialization (Leia probably just stuck to Figurehead based upon what we see in the films) and just focus on boosting their skill ranks, but you're going to loose out on a lot of the flourishes that additional specializations can provide with the talents they offer.

Great responses, thank you all.

I just hope they start targeting the Old Republic for future releases. I like having the established Jedi and other force using traditions around but I also enjoy playing out the slow decline of the Jedi Council (mind you, I run more often then I play). While I am not looking at Starkiller level of play, I am certainly looking at the Old Republic timeline, including the Mandalorean war.

Thanks again for all the helpful advice!

FaD offers the option of "Knight Level" play, starting with 150xp extra to allow for more trained force users right from the start, and imo that is still just decent Padawan level (and way below Asoka in the clone wars), so you might increase this furthermore if you want not just freshly promoted jedi knights and instead some experienced once. Though with the usually xp between 5 and 15 xp per hour … you get quite fast to that anyway. As long as XP comes in bucks you can reach those higher force ratings fast enough, it usually takes around 75 to 100 xp to reach the next force update and the first specs are cheap as well.

Also, I noticed that not every specialization gets that increase Force Rating talent. Is this an oversight? Strangely enough it is the Sage (and not the Healer) that gets 2 of these talents. The specializations that does not get it are the Guardian: Soresu Defender, the Mystic: Makashi Duelist; the Seeker: Ataru Striker, Sentinel: Shien Expert, and the Warrior: Shii-Cho Knight. So according to the mechanics, these types would have to cross specialize, (20 points) and follow the most direct path, the cheapest being 50 or 75 points worth of progression, so any of these classes will have to spend 70 - 95 points before seeing their next raise in Force Rating.

It's worth pointing out that in this system no character is meant to be 100% one specialization. Everyone is expected and encouraged to cross specialize. Whether we're talking about F&D, AoR or EotE the entire system is set up with the idea that you're not sticking to just one specialization or just one career type.

If you look at the heroes of the original films, you can see this quite clearly.

Han Solo is both a Pilot and a Scoundrel. Lando is a Gambler, Charmer, and maybe a dash of Pilot. Luke himself is some bizarre mish-mash of specs, either starting as an Explorer/Fringer or Ace/Pilot while also picking up Force Emergent (my best guess since it generally makes him tougher in combat) before moving into a LS Form spec (possibly Shien Expert and/or Shii-Cho Knight). Jango Fett is a blend of Bounty Hunter's Gadgeteer and Smuggler's Gunslinger.

That said, it is possible for a PC to stay with a single specialization (Leia probably just stuck to Figurehead based upon what we see in the films) and just focus on boosting their skill ranks, but you're going to loose out on a lot of the flourishes that additional specializations can provide with the talents they offer.

I think it's easier to stay one spec if you are a Force related spec. For example, being a Sage or Seer, you can get up to FR 3 while staying in your starting spec, and can then spend your other XP to buy and upgrade your Force powers. And let your variety of Force powers be your "flourish". Because with an FR of 3, you can be scary capable with the Force. I'm in a PBP currently and that's basically my plan, to just stick to Sage, buy down into the FR talents, and then spend the rest on powers.

Great responses, thank you all.

I just hope they start targeting the Old Republic for future releases. I like having the established Jedi and other force using traditions around but I also enjoy playing out the slow decline of the Jedi Council (mind you, I run more often then I play). While I am not looking at Starkiller level of play, I am certainly looking at the Old Republic timeline, including the Mandalorean war.

Thanks again for all the helpful advice!

There's "support" there for the Old Republic if you look for it. For example, the Nexus of Power book has a bunch of stuff on Old Republic worlds (Old Republic stuff is even in the Jedi And Sith chapter in the F&D core as well as the galactic locations). Even non F&D splat books have Old Republic references thrown in (there's a reference to the Jedi Consular in the Old Republic MMO in the Chandrilla section in Strongholds of Resistance). Nexus of Power also includes the Jedi trials as one of the modular encounters.

Knight Level can create a fairly competent Padawan (in an old create the character contest here I created a nearly Knight Level Asohka Tano - this thread also has a number of other low XP Jedi builds: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/189059-you-build-the-character-9-the-jedi/ ) and if you hand out 25+XP per session the characters will pretty quickly grow into Jedi Knight power level characters. It doesn't take a crazy amount of points to pick up Reflect, Parry, and some basic utility with the standard Jedi force powers to have the basic well-rounded framework of a Jedi Knight character.

Giving the group the Mentor character option reducing the cost of basic force powers is a great way of emulating "You're a member of the Jedi Order".

It makes me feel old when people talk about KOTOR, and ONLY reference the MMO, instead of the games that one is based off of.

Having played other Star Wars games, I can appreciate the effort they've gone through to make us go through the effort of increasing Force potential, as much as Force Rating is, compared to the power upgrades each power has, but I can also understand the chagrin some people feel when they'd rather play in another time frame, and the books do a poor job, perhaps, in letting you play someone who WAS raised in the Jedi Order, and might have slightly more of a Force Rating. It's sort of like playing Rogue Trader. You start the game with a potentially awesome ship, and some of the best gear (your) limitless money can procure, but whatever you build will still have the feel of "just yesterday, your parent died, ending an era of the dynasty, and now, here the Warrant passes to you, Rogue Trader." I suppose there is Knight play, so I'm not really complaining, but I can see where some people's quick look at the book might make one feel like they won't be able to do much of anything, with the Force, while getting good with any weapon, or a tool, is rather easy (any skill is cheapish, compared to having to buy talents up, till you lead to the one you want (Force Training), and hoping you like those talents, over the others on lines that don't lead to FT. Still, I say it's for the best, as it keeps the Jedi-to-be from eclipsing the rest of the party, while they toss transports, deflect fusillades of weapons fire, and wave information out of the BBEG with literally their hand. I LOVE wizards, in D&D, and I hate when they go all nerfy on their spells, but I agree that it's necessary, when the fighter really only ever hits a little harder, and a bit more often (the wizard's spells often auto-hit, and few fighters can roll 6d6 for their damage, even if in limited quantity), and he's as relevant a character concept as the wizard.

It makes me feel old when people talk about KOTOR, and ONLY reference the MMO, instead of the games that one is based off of.

I played KOTOR, but unlike most people, didn't see it as the second coming of video game jesus, so it's not really all that major in my brain

Having played other Star Wars games, I can appreciate the effort they've gone through to make us go through the effort of increasing Force potential, as much as Force Rating is, compared to the power upgrades each power has, but I can also understand the chagrin some people feel when they'd rather play in another time frame, and the books do a poor job, perhaps, in letting you play someone who WAS raised in the Jedi Order, and might have slightly more of a Force Rating.

In what way does the game system As Is, not let you do exactly this? You can pick one of the careers from the F&D book, like oh, one of the saber specs, and have that be your "Grew up in the Jedi Order" rationale. You want them to have slightly more of a Force Rating? Well do a Knight Level play, and let them spend that XP on boosting their Force Rating. They can even start with a lightsaber and everything! Heck you don't even need to use Knight Play XP to get "slightly more of a Force Rating". Just go Sage/Seer, and with your starting XP, you could buy down to FR 2, no problem.

Basically, what you've described is "a character who is more experienced than a starting PC". Well....give them more XP and they will be exactly this

It makes me feel old when people talk about KOTOR, and ONLY reference the MMO, instead of the games that one is based off of.

I played KOTOR, but unlike most people, didn't see it as the second coming of video game jesus, so it's not really all that major in my brain

I always laugh when people want to focus on the games that inspired the MMO but never make mention of the comic book series that inspired the games themselves.

It makes me feel old when people talk about KOTOR, and ONLY reference the MMO, instead of the games that one is based off of.

I played KOTOR, but unlike most people, didn't see it as the second coming of video game jesus, so it's not really all that major in my brain

I always laugh when people want to focus on the games that inspired the MMO but never make mention of the comic book series that inspired the games themselves.

Eh, I vaguely remember those. Something about some brothers who were both force users, one got his arm chopped off, but he ends up making himself a new one with a box of scraps! in a junkyard! using the Force! *said in Jeff Bridges voice* I think I'm remembering them right. Same answer for that as I have for KOTOR. I remember them, didn't really knock my socks off, didn't maintain them in long term memory.

The Knights of the Old Republic comics (not Tales of the Jedi - about Zayne Carrick, not Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun) were actually amazing, and a great look at Force Rating 1 characters as a primary protagonist.

The Knights of the Old Republic comics (not Tales of the Jedi - about Zayne Carrick, not Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun) were actually amazing, and a great look at Force Rating 1 characters as a primary protagonist.

Personally I did like the Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma ones as well. A diminishing knowledge of the force and constant decline in knowledge thanks to all those wars seems somehow fitting in my book. And we have this in canon as well with Force wielders: the Father, the Son and the Daughter showing how powerful the force can be and how little even the Knights of the late republic knew about it.

The Knights of the Old Republic comics (not Tales of the Jedi - about Zayne Carrick, not Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun) were actually amazing, and a great look at Force Rating 1 characters as a primary protagonist.

Ah, right. Tales of the Jedi. That's what I read. Been like 20 years so forgive my memory. That and I got so burned out on reading comics after working in a comic shop in the 90's, I just can't really bring myself to follow them anymore.