Does this mean we need to have lists submitted in advance, so the TO can check lists before game day? I know most TOs are too busy organizing match ups etc to thoroughly vet lists...

Wow that is terrible to here that you lost to an illegal list. Hopefully FFG has a policy that it can be stripped of the player if found cheating after the fact. I still don't understand how 3 people didn't catch an ISD1 using ECM but I guess it can happen in the heat of the moment.

As the thoroughly noobish first round opponent of the player in question, I can confirm that the Raider I using the Raider II card also appeared in our game. The Raider's maneuvering let it unleash a devastating double-arc, at which point I asked, horrified, about its upgrades. Naked in round one. I checked my photo and the ISD I had ECM, but I don't remember it making much difference.

It was my first tournament and I didn't have the time or presence to vet his list, or to know off-hand the upgrade bar on an ISD I. Of my many mistakes made during my first tournament, this was one of them. Needless to say, I got tabled decisively (one damage point away from killing that ISD!) and ended up with the bye during the second round.

FFG has a set of things in place...

Deliberate and Fragrant Cheating will be responded to, with that player being Suspended from Organised Play Events .

Get onto the TO to start the Investigation.

Get onto FFG to start the Investigation.

If it appears to be deliberate, then its a matter for FFG Suspension.

And here's the Link:


https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/spolicy/

It has the link to Report. If the TO does his inventigation and agrees, he can Disqualify - even after the fact - in which case, he should contact...

BUT, you as a Player can also Contact, with evidence, if you believe its warranted, according to the suspension policy.

Regardless, if FFG takes it up, the person in question will have avenue of appeal.

...Fragrant Cheating...

Just wondering, what does fragrant cheating smell like? Does it smell like a trash compactor, or..?

That was incredibly frustrating to read. Particularly:

I realized that after the game when we were totaling points. I asked the TO, but he said it was impossible to roll the game back that far.

No. He doesn't have to roll the game back at all. It should at the very least have been a bye to you and a 0-point loss to the player in question, and should have raised the question of "what was actually supposed to be in the list?" Furthermore, it should have prompted the TO to look into the list as submitted--which brings me to the second point...

Why didn't the TO scrub the lists before the tournament started? Isn't that one of the basic responsibilities of the TO? Seriously asking, because I've never done it before, but that seems like their responsibility to me. Maybe I'm wrong or it's impractical to expect or something. Also sounds like it's possible that he submitted a different list to the TO than the one he was using... Which, in my mind is outright cheating, case closed, strip him of his prizes and title and step everything down to the next places.

Of course, all of this is Monday morning quarterbacking, and with the understanding that there could be some reasonable expansion for this because we're only getting one side of the story. That said, sounds pretty **** shady to me if your understanding of the situation is accurate.

Makes me really appreciate the thoroughness of our TO's here in San Antonio. They not only scrub lists before the tournament (once found an adding error in one of mine even), but we have a paper template we use to check damage decks at the beginning of every major tournament (Sullust, SC's, and Regionals). Really helps to keep everything above board, lots of opportunity to catch inconsistencies--accidental or not--preventing any question of cheating in those regards.

...Fragrant Cheating...

Just wondering, what does fragrant cheating smell like? Does it smell like a trash compactor, or..?

I could tell you.

But you don't want to know.

...

I've smelt some things, man... Stuff... and things... Bad things, man...

I checked my photo and the ISD I had ECM, but I don't remember it making much difference.

...

(one damage point away from killing that ISD!)

This is making me crazy. If that ECM mitigated even one single point of damage during that game.... D:

((Edited my above to include the Link to the Suspension Policy and Reporting))

As it stands now, I'm waiting to hear back from the TO. I reached out because we had discussed getting all of the lists to submit to that madman's spreadsheet (you all know the one I mean). But I did mention the issues I noticed, with a particular note to see the player in question's list to make sure it matches up with what he actually fielded. I'm sort of hemming and hawing over submitting a report, Dras. I wouldn't have considered it at all with the OE, maneuver tool wiggling and Gladiator maneuver, but the ECM and seven points over has me thinking about it. When I get his submitted list, if it's any different, I'll be sending a report immediately. Honestly, as the second place finisher, I wouldn't want to win a bye and a trophy by having the results invalidated after the fact, but I also don't think someone who makes that many mistakes should be rewarded with a potential bye at Nationals.

In reference to the wiggling, it was pretty blatant. I could see the maneuver tool sliding along the table, and when the Gladiator was close to me, there were two instances where the ship's base was several degrees off of the maneuver tool. This is where I started to physically pin the maneuver tool down and move the ship flush against it. And he didn't mention anything about me pinning down the maneuver tool or physically moving his ship.

And the weird thing is, pasewi was talking to him about the Raider during the first round, so you would have thought having the Raider brought up specifically round one would have convinced him to put out the correct card for round two.

I don't know what I would have done as a TO in that situation, to be honest. I mean, it had a potential ly significant impact on the game, but who's to say my squadrons surviving another round or two would have made a serious difference? I just wish I had taken a closer look at his list when he handed it to me. I glanced at it as he gave me a vocal rundown, so I didn't look too closely. And I'm kicking myself for not catching the ECM thing. I'm an Imperial player and make test builds all the **** time . The only thing I can say is that I was feeling pretty defeated by the point the ECMs kicked in, so I wasn't thinking very clearly.

Again, it didn't ruin my day. I fared MUCH better than I expected and played two games against good people. I could tell my last opponent was feeling defeated by about the midway point of our game, but he was still smiling and joking around with me. And I could empathize, because I've been in his position too many times to recall.

First off congratulations on second place, and a well written battle report for us to read, thanks for that.

I just added all his stuff up, and it comes in a 411pts going off of the pictures, and a Raider II gets one blue and one black dice for AA so it can only reroll one of them with his non existent Ordnance Experts.

I had something similar happen to me recently (moving things, changing stuff) and it has made me question whether I can be bothered attending a Regional or another tournament.

So I really feel for you man, you need to do what Dras suggested and get that ball rolling ( I know a lot of effort on your part, when the TO should have been all over it.) but it can't be allowed to stand.

The Raider-II card was down, but he fielded it as a Raider-I in my game, and pasewi thinks it was the same in his game (Raider-II card was definitely down, but fielded as a Raider-I).

.As it stands now, I'm waiting to hear back from the TO. I reached out because we had discussed getting all of the lists to submit to that madman's spreadsheet (you all know the one I mean).

Madman? I'll take it as a compliment.

.As it stands now, I'm waiting to hear back from the TO. I reached out because we had discussed getting all of the lists to submit to that madman's spreadsheet (you all know the one I mean).

Madman? I'll take it as a compliment.

Good, 'cause that's how it was meant.

Also, FINALLY catching up on some earlier comments:

@LTD - Yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't show up with a list prepared. I wonder if some people maybe show up without a prepared list so they can eye what other people brought and make some last minute changes? The TO had us submit hand written lists on the tournament sheets. I will say the opponent in question had a printed list he handed me before the game, so he did come with one prepared, and it looked like it was a Warlords or Fab's printout, but I can't be sure. As I said, I didn't take a close look. You're right, though, it is very easy to cheat. I've thought about that damage deck thing myself. It says you can verify your opponent's deck, but how long will it take to make sure that all, what, 52 cards are there?

@Reinholt - I was surprised you weren't there. I was hoping to test myself against your zombie ships. And yes, maybe the next store champ in CT will see us cross paths again.

@Overdawg - Thanks! I'm definitely a fan of the Vics. You have to be careful about positioning and maneuvering, and I feel like an all-VSD list NEEDS bombers. You'll never come about on ships once they're behind you, but you can always position your bombers to cover the rear, and scoot your Vics away as fast as they'll go. Which isn't exactly fast , but it's fast for them.

@tgall and Sky - Right now, we don't know that the TO didn't audit the lists. It could very well be that the list in front of the TO was legal and 400pts. So I don't know if it was an issue of a legal list being submitted and playing a different one (fault on the player and definitely resulting in a report from me) or if the TO was given the same list and didn't audit it (fault of the TO and also probably deserving a report from me). Honestly, the second one would make me more upset. If I were a TO and the Ordnance Experts issue were pointed out to me, the first thing I would do would be to audit his list for points/legality, and then double check his cards to make sure he was running the proper list. I could see the error getting by in the first place. You've got nineteen lists to look over while people are asking you questions and you're trying to go around to get pictures. Running an event is hectic . But if the submitted list didn't have an error and it wasn't caught after a player complained about something that could have resulted in disqualification anyway? That would definitely kill my confidence in the location hosting the event.

I checked my photo and the ISD I had ECM, but I don't remember it making much difference.

...

(one damage point away from killing that ISD!)

This is making me crazy. If that ECM mitigated even one single point of damage during that game.... D:

That's true. I was not going to win the game, because I was in way over my head at my first tournament, but my MoV could have been a lot better. And unfortunately it could have drastically altered the rest of the event.

The Raider in my game was, I seem to recall, a Raider I but looking at my photo it also used the Raider II card. Reegsk makes the good point that after I asked him about what he had on that ship there shouldn't have been any round 2 question which version of the ship it was supposed to be and what upgrades (easy: none) were on it.

The "cheater" in question was me.

The error was mine, and weather anyone wants to believe it or not I did not realize it until i read this post. I have already notified to OP that I am conceding the tournament win to him and will forward him the prizes he earned.

I love this game and would never disrespect it by accepting a win i did not deserve.

The mistake was due to a last minute change in my list after running the same list with and ISD II and Ord experts on my raider for the last 4 months every week. I changed my list but forgot to pull the ECM card from my bag and set it up

with my ships. I never play ISD Is so it did not strike me as odd that it had a defensive card with it.

Regardless the fact that I played my first game with it, should have had me DQ from the tournament. I deeply apologize to my opponents for the error and really don't know what else to say.

I will say that in no case was I ever trying to cheat. I was nervous as hell, by doing so well at a regional. I had never won a tournament at that level before. I'm sure most on the forum will assume I'm lying, that's cool, this is the internet after all.

But I would say that if you felt my movement template use was not valid, please call me out on the spot, don't smile to my face then slam me on the internet.

In any case, you have the win.

a great post from a honest guy

I commend you for the honesty as it is far more difficult being in your shoes then any of ours

The "cheater" in question was me.

Takes a big man to show up in a thread accusing you of cheating and fess up. You at least get my respect for that, whatever else may have happened notwithstanding.

I still have no idea why they don't have both players share a damage deck in these events.

dude its an amazing FREE builder, how calm down

Seriously this game is so easy to cheat: Its not obvious as to what upgrades are capable for ships. I've definitely seen that flexing the maneuver tool is doable. (Though gladly, the people I play here are really casual and honorable about stuff.)

And the whole bid thing. We basically never actually check if its really the case. We really need like a TEXT printout squadron builder thing.

Would Warlords consider making a no-pictures version of their thing? Its really really distracting to those of us who want to see everything on the screen in one go!!!! I can't even see how many points I have yet to spend unless i scroll back up! Hello! Am I doing something wrong? This is crazy!

Hey man, I do appreciate you posting here. I got your message as well, but would say the same thing in PM, so I'll just keep it here. I do appreciate you coming forward and apologizing. I realize that my first few posts were harshly worded, and I apologize for that as well. As I was originally writing my second post, I was going to mention the Ordnance Experts debacle, but since I looked at your list and didn't catch it, my original draft had the onus on me for that one. And as I said earlier, that may have had an impact on the game, but also may not have. I positioned my squadrons perfectly into the Raider/Glad kill box, and up until I was writing that post, I took it as an honest mistake and was kicking myself over failing to notice the mistake earlier and playing the squadron game so poorly. But as I was finishing up the post, I zoomed in to check the upgrades on your ships to include them in the post, and that's when I noticed the ECMs on the ISD-I. So I totaled the points, and saw 407. Now I'm in front of my computer, thinking back over the game. The maneuver tool wiggling was something I had noticed, but didn't think was important enough to speak up about at the time. But in the light of having faced a list that was over on points AND had an illegal upgrade AND the mistake with Ordnance Experts AND the illegal Glad maneuver, well, it colored my opinion.

Again, my wording was very harsh, which is also why I did not include your name. And as I mentioned earlier, when discussing the submission of a report, I don't want to win like this. Your list without ECMs is exactly 400pts, which was the stated bid. So I'm willing to grant that was oversight and the OE thing was oversight. The maneuver tool wiggling could just be playing a bit faster and looser than I'm used to, and the Glad maneuver at the end could just be nervousness and overeagerness due to the stress of the situation (I forgot I had XI-7s on my ships at the last tournament all day). However, the combination of everything casted a pall of doubt.

The one question I have is this - did you notice the ECM mistake before the end of the day? Your round three opponent says you did not have ECMs on your ISD-I. If that's true, then you either had another oversight and forgot to put it out after having it for the first two rounds, or noticed your mistake before the end of the tournament and neglected to tell anyone.

I did have ECM on my ISD in game 3, it just never came up as he never fired on my isd with anything that would have required me to use it. He was playing for the squadron win and kept his raiders out of range of the isd until the very end.

I understand your posts and in your shoes I would have assumed cheating as well, you don't know me I'm just some ******* you played at a tournament, I get it.

I also realize now that I played all three practice games last Tuesday with the goddamned ECM as well, I just never cross checked my bag with my printed list and did not realize it was a card that should have been pulled from the bag.

That's what I get for changing a list I could play in my sleep before a big regional.

In any case, I played an illegal list all day, so by definition I am disqualified. Its crushing to loose my best ever tournament performance because of an idiotic brain fart, but an illegal list is an illegal list so let me know where to ship your trophy and I apologize for any snippyiness, I have no right to be upset here, im the one in the wrong.

Props to bigtmac68 - it is a huge thing to turn down a Regional win. You have my respect.

I'm pretty sure I've done something similar in some games, though never in a tourney of that magnitude. I've long since learned the lesson that last minute changes to my hard-practiced lists never turn out well.

I did have ECM on my ISD in game 3, it just never came up as he never fired on my isd with anything that would have required me to use it. He was playing for the squadron win and kept his raiders out of range of the isd until the very end.

I understand your posts and in your shoes I would have assumed cheating as well, you don't know me I'm just some ******* you played at a tournament, I get it.

I also realize now that I played all three practice games last Tuesday with the goddamned ECM as well, I just never cross checked my bag with my printed list and did not realize it was a card that should have been pulled from the bag.

That's what I get for changing a list I could play in my sleep before a big regional.

In any case, I played an illegal list all day, so by definition I am disqualified. Its crushing to loose my best ever tournament performance because of an idiotic brain fart, but an illegal list is an illegal list so let me know where to ship your trophy and I apologize for any snippyiness, I have no right to be upset here, im the one in the wrong.

Let me just say that it is really great that you have the character to own up to your mistakes. It seems like you played a hell of a tournament. It is a shame about the disqualification but I think everyone makes mistakes. At the very least you played well and have a great story!

I've never played a miniature game before Armada but I think that 99% of the players out there are great people just looking to push these little Star Wars ships around. I think it helps to stay positive and expect the best from your opponents. You have lived up to this in my mind.