Basic question: What is an average samurai, in terms of schoold rank, rings, and skill level?

Context:

4e core isn't super helpful in figuring this out. The general rules my group used were 1) that most samurai get to school rank 2 or 3; 2) A "professional" skill level was 3 (beginner sensei was 5); 3) "professional" level ring was 3.

But I've read that some people here are under the impression that most samurai live in the boonies and aren't even trained in their family schools. PCs trained in the family school are the exception.

Can anyone explain this to me/cite sources that explain it?

If Unexpected Allies 2 is any measure then getting School Ranks above 1 is considered to be "something" and reserved for people who have been through some sh*t and not your rank-and-file samurai. The same book also says that an IR 1 samurai has two Rings at Rank 3 and every other Ring at Rank 2 (while an IR 2 samurai has every Ring at Rank 3).

Their are two main views on this that I'm aware of

1) All Samurai are Rank 1 unless otherwise noted (anyone in a leadership position, or otherwise important in the story you're telling) This is the view I ascribe to. If I'm fighting Crane-san the bushi, I expect to be dealing with the first rank of one of the Crane schools.

2) Even having a rank in a school makes you special and important. This places the PC's a step above most of their peers, and if you face someone with a school rank it lets you know immediately that your opponent is a 'big deal'.

That's my take on it at least, someone else feel free to correct me if I missed anything.

If Unexpected Allies 2 [...] The same book also says that an IR 1 samurai has two Rings at Rank 3 and every other Ring at Rank 2 (while an IR 2 samurai has every Ring at Rank 3).

Their are two main views on this that I'm aware of

[...]

2) Even having a rank in a school makes you special and important. This places the PC's a step above most of their peers, and if you face someone with a school rank it lets you know immediately that your opponent is a 'big deal'.

That's my take on it at least, someone else feel free to correct me if I missed anything.

From the NPC stats and description all over the editions, basically, something like 50% of the samurai population is rank 1 and will never go over that. Talented warriors and officers will reach 2, and higher rank will reach 3. When it come to 4 you start to have it down and it trickles down and down more and more as rank rises. PC are exceptional in that they'll be able to climb in rank and just getting to rank 2 make them special.

This has been of moderately good use for my campaign in regards to average rank and all that. I only heavily disagree with the Crab Shugenja numbers though, Cannot imagine the wall surviving with the pitiful numbers given.

https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/legend-of-the-five-rings-demographics-of-rokugan/

Super helpful link! Thanks.

No Problemo man. I had a similar question ages ago on the AEG forums and someone passed that link along to me, just pay it forward and use it's power wisely.

Specifically, I have used the following rubric when figuring out how to stat my stock NPCs (non-named, non-numbered).

The Rabble - Unskilled warriors, bandits, peasants with spears (these guys are designed to die by the dozens)

All Attributes at 2, Void 1, relevant Skills at 2, no emphases

The Rank and File - Average Samurai of Rokugan (trained soldier / competent samurai of Rokugan; 40% of the armies and population)

Four Rings at 2, one Ring at 3 (usually Earth), one Attribute at 3 (usually Agility); Rank 1 Technique of appropriate School; Rank 2 in all School Skills, Rank 3 in two Primary Skills (Weapon, Courtier, Stealth, Etc)

Example: Crab Thug (Hida Bushi Rank 1, Earth 3, Strength 3, Heavy Weapons 3 (Tetsubo), Athletics 3); Bandit Leader (Forest Killer Bushi 1, Earth 3, Agility 3, Kenjutsu 3 (Parangu), Stealth 3), Crane Guard (Daidoji Bushi 1, Earth 3, Reflexes 3, Spears 3 (Yari), Defense 3), Lion Soldier (Matsu Bushi 1, Water 3, Agility 3, Kenjutsu 3 (Katana), Battle 3), Scorpion Diplomat (Bayushi Courtier 1, Air 3, Intelligence 3, Courtier (Manipulation) 3, Sincerity 3), Phoenix Shugenja (Isawa Shugenja 1, Fire 3 (Affinity), Willpower 3, Lore: Theology 3, Spellcraft 3)

The Professionals - These are the guys who have been doing this for a decade, and know what they are up to (30% of the armies)

Three Rings at 2, two Rings at 3, one Attribute at 3; Rank 2 Technique; Rank 2 in all School Skills, Rank 4 in one Primary Skill, Rank 3 in two Secondary skills

Example: Crane Duelist (Kakita Bushi 2, Air 3, Void 3, Agility 3, Iaijutsu 4 (Focus), Kenjutsu 3, Courtier 3); Lion Gunso (Akodo Bushi 2, Fire 3, Earth 3, Perception 3, Kenjutsu 4 (Katana), Battle 3, Lore: Bushido 3), Bandit Lord (Ronin Bushi School 2, Earth 3, Fire 3, Reflexes 3, Kenjutsu 4 (Parangu), Knives 3, Intimidation 3)

I generally reserve the presence of Rank 3 and higher characters for named and numbered characters, or for the presence of an "Elite" mook for the PCs to fight. Simple Action Attacks are particularly deadly, as most characters can be crippled or killed with two solid hits. In my experience, players generally enjoy facing greater numbers of unskilled bad guys interspersed with fights against smaller "elite" forces. But your mileage may vary.

Just remember the power of a room of unskilled fighters going to Full Attack.

This has been of moderately good use for my campaign in regards to average rank and all that. I only heavily disagree with the Crab Shugenja numbers though, Cannot imagine the wall surviving with the pitiful numbers given.

https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/legend-of-the-five-rings-demographics-of-rokugan/

I see a few problems with these calculations...

It way overestimates childhood death rate, there is no reason to think it is 40-50%, and I don't think that 85% of samurai would be bushi while 10% would be courtiers. You need a ton of people to administer and run everything, a lot more than you need full time military officers that do nothing productive. Although the problem likely arises in the settings insistence in categorizing them entirely in these separate categories when realistically most people in that class would shift back and forth between the two roles as needed. Given that taxes need to be counted and then distributed, food and aid needs to be directed, patrol routes need to be planned and their reports need to be gathered and considered, buildings need to be designed and approved, etc. There is way too much for the empire to really having 8 educated but ultimately unproductive and non-contributing soldier for every educated person who actually participates in running the society.

Also, the number of shugenja also seems disturbingly low for their general prominence and regular appearances within the story. And who knows how he went about breaking down the population by clan.

But, that is all regarding some false premises this person built his assumptions on when it came to population distribution. I don't necessarily see the same issues in regarding the chance of members advancing in school ranks which is what is being discussed here. Still, given that this person uses some extraordinarily shaky premises resulting in impossibly out-of-whack results in one part of this ought to leave the other parts similarly untrustworthy.

This has been of moderately good use for my campaign in regards to average rank and all that. I only heavily disagree with the Crab Shugenja numbers though, Cannot imagine the wall surviving with the pitiful numbers given.

https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/legend-of-the-five-rings-demographics-of-rokugan/

I see a few problems with these calculations...

It way overestimates childhood death rate, there is no reason to think it is 40-50%, and I don't think that 85% of samurai would be bushi while 10% would be courtiers. You need a ton of people to administer and run everything

I was thinking along similar lines. I figure most people who aren't shugenja, in the military, or important courtiers might as well be Rank 1 courtiers... they don't really need their higher ranks unless they're headed to court (various bureaucrats, scribes, etc.).

I don't know what a historically realistic death rate would for the tech level/time period/a place of similar geography might be... but this is a fantasy game. For me, personally, a high child mortality rate is grim in an un-fun way, while three feet from death is "grim" in a fun way. In my mind, in a fantasy setting, it's perfectly fine to have an inexplicably low child mortality rate and an inexplicably low birth rate so that the population ends up the same without all the sad child mortality. Equally important, egalitarian society needs egalitarian careers.

Also, the number of shugenja also seems disturbingly low for their general prominence and regular appearances within the story. And who knows how he went about breaking down the population by clan.

Both the shugenja ratio (1 shugenja / 1000 samurai) and the population numbers are from the 3rd edition rulebook.

L5R has a spotty record of what is average. The average rank is always rank 1-3. If you look at Enemies of the Empire, the average ronin, Nezumi, and Naga are beyond rank 1 (rank 2-3). Whereas, you get differing opinions in Unexpected Allies and some adventures. Back on the AEG forum, there would be hotly debated arguments with many people presenting their visions and using the books as reference. Unfortunately, the books present both rank 1 and more advanced ranks as the average, since even all the authors don't agree what is normal! Go with what feels right. You will find the system doesn't magical break down if you choose rank 1 or 2. I might be careful about making the average samurai rank 3 though due to the simple action attack. That is a dangerous Rokugan indeed.

Whatever you choose remember this fact, even if your PCs are below the average rank at rank 1 or rank 3, they are still the heroes of your story. This statement includes being rank 0 (my players loved my rank 0 campaign the most) Heroes don't have to better than the average person, they only have to be thrown into an abnormal situation and act heroically. A hero is what you do, rather than what you are capable of. Many experienced people are denied the chance of being heroes by fate rather than their ability.

Note: For full disclosure, I use rank 2 as my average benchmark in my games. My players love the average samurai at rank 2 since it always makes combat dangerous and not a Dynasty Warrior situation at higher ranks. The traits and techniques also helps bushi compete with shugenja at later ranks, since a squad of rank 2 samurai led by a rank 5 bushi can pose a challenge for a loner rank 5 shugenja.

I have previously issued my objection to the way schools work in the L5R RPG and as I have been reviewing them more carefully lately, I really got to say that it reinforced my previous stance even though I was totally open to having my mind changed.

I really don't believe that any clan is without archers, without cavalry, without scouts, without duelists...

And that is what makes L5R RPG schools so problematic. That there was this whole overemphasis on every school at every rank doing something uniquely different and being overly specialized in one particular thing. It wasn't that you follow a school and that means your defenses get enhanced at one rank, your damage abilities at another, your attacks at another, your versatility at yet another....

No, the schools were designed in such that if the school was about enhancing your defenses, that's about all it ever did. If it was about enhancing your initiative, it did so and then gave you insane offensive bonuses for doing so. If it was about offensive, then all ranks were built around offense.

And, again, every school seemed to be desperately reaching to try to be uniquely different. So the schools that were designed first got the most basic, simple, streamlined mechanics to do what they wanted to do-- and then if a school was designed later, it was given some convoluted and over-complicated way of trying to reach the same effect and often failing to do so.

And if, as everything outside of looking at the RPG's mechanical limitations suggests, that every clan actually has people filling all those various necessarily military roles so they are fielding a decent army (not to even begin to mention the courtier schools and how many fill a role a clan only needs a few of while ignoring jobs that need to be done on a more consistent basis) then I really got to wonder.....

Maybe no samurai are meant to have any school ranks at all. It is the only way we can possibly justify anyone but a Kakita ever winning the Topaz championship or **** near any duel for that matter... and unless one is a Tsuruchi, then they cannot possibly be a decent archer if the average school rank was 3. And the Unicorn are the only ones via the rules of the RPG who are ever going to have or be able to afford a horse of any kind ever...

Fundamentally, the reason why this whole "what school rank should the average samurai have" is basically impossible to answer is that the RPG, at least in terms of the way it handles schools, is such an extraordinarily poor representation of the world it is meant to represent that the whole thematic concept of the world as it is supposed to be kind of starts to fall apart once you assume that even rank 1 of these limited number of schools that in no way duplicate each other is common and the more school ranks you assume everyone has, the more the whole world just utterly falls apart under the weight of these exclusive and pigeon-holing overpowered school techniques.

That being said-- it is important that your PCs face actual challenges and so however powerful your PC are, it is important that they face a challenge capable of countering them... that being said, if your PCs have entirely min/maxed their way towards being massively overpowered in one particularly aspect of the game as the poorly constructed schools encourage, if not enforce, your PCs to do-- it usually leaves them with some massively gaping weakness that can be exploited by NPCs with relatively few actual school techniques.