--edit--
I know my situation is only my situation and there are places where the game is booming. Not disputing that. But my situation isn't isolated either, as several posts in this thread have shown.
--end edit--
No, but you to insinuate that your area is indicative of the trend.
Otherwise you wouldn't give it the importance that you do.
And insinuate that those who are counter to you are isolated.
The biggest issue I find is the cost. And the FFG model of not selling upgrade card packs is a real killer as well. I'd like to run 3 TRC90s in a list. Definitely don't have the extra cash for 2 more mc30s. Unlike their other two games, the cost of the models here makes it so much tougher to just buy tons of extras
--edit--
I know my situation is only my situation and there are places where the game is booming. Not disputing that. But my situation isn't isolated either, as several posts in this thread have shown.
--end edit--
No, but you to insinuate that your area is indicative of the trend.
Otherwise you wouldn't give it the importance that you do.
And insinuate that those who are counter to you are isolated.
Et tu Dras? 
I apologize if you think my stating the lines being dropped in my area is insinuation that the game is being dropped all over the planet? I don't recall stating a trend, per se, but yes in my first post it sort of feels like what happened before other games faded away. Didn't say it was, just shared the sigh of being left out. I did, after others reacted with what seemed a sort of "nothing to see here" take (essentially dismissing the issues I and others shared), speculate on if the game would continue to stay strong, and pointed out signs of folks selling their collections, posts of others who have found price an issue (which was contested as even being a thing), as well as the posts of folks who also can't find any other local players.
On second thought, yeah. I'd say there is a trend there. But still won't call it a "the game is going away" trend. It's a "the game has some growing pains, a few issues, and has room to grow" trend. Which was something I believe I said more than once.
As to giving it importance, I was merely countering what seemed a dismissal of what I and others had posted, and then speculated (I think reasonably) on if the sales numbers are even an accurate way to measure the game at this point.
I certainly never "insinuated" that the world is an Armada void except for isolated pockets. I have no idea how you got that. 
Nothing wrong with opinions - we all have them, after all 
I'm just doing what I can to point out that Negativity seems to be carried further, and repeated more often... Even when the Positive is in the majority.
I guess I'm just wistful for more positivity on the Armada forums these days...
Nothing wrong with opinions - we all have them, after all
I'm just doing what I can to point out that Negativity seems to be carried further, and repeated more often... Even when the Positive is in the majority.
I guess I'm just wistful for more positivity on the Armada forums these days...
Does feel like since wave 3 things have been more negative.
Maybe we should start a new thread on happy thoughts like sunshine, rainbows and Liberty-class MC80s....
I guess I'm just wistful for more positivity on the Armada forums these days...
With the reputation the internet has for being such a positive, encouraging place filled happy souls sitting eagerly at their keyboards to type uplifting messages to each other I am surprised this even comes up.
"I have observed that not the man who hopes when others despair, but the man who despairs when others hope, is admired by a large class of persons as a sage." -John Stuart Mill
"Only pessimism sounds profound. Optimism sounds superficial," -Teresa Amabile
One of the great tragedies of our world is that positivism is scorned while negativity is rewarded again and again. It costs nothing to tear something down, but a great deal to invest in building something up.
It should also be mentioned that the core set is ridiculously overpriced. There are MANY $100 games that come with piles of high detail minis and comparable components. The pre painted minis are just ok, but 1 tiny cr90, a neb and a vsd just dont cut it for $100.
The starter set should be reasknbly priced.
It should also be mentioned that the core set is ridiculously overpriced. There are MANY $100 games that come with piles of high detail minis and comparable components. The pre painted minis are just ok, but 1 tiny cr90, a neb and a vsd just dont cut it for $100.
The starter set should be reasknbly priced.
The entire game needs to be more reasonably priced.
The game is very reasonably priced. Or you could try buying some Warmachine or 40K figures?
The game is very reasonably priced. Or you could try buying some Warmachine or 40K figures?
Its not just the price of the individual figures, it's the price of what is required to play competitively. To be competitive in 40k you need at least 3,000 points of stuff, more likely 5,000.
The price / fun ratio of FFG is so much better than GW products. I bought a complete run of IA in February, and it has entertained 5 people for 1-2 evenings a week for 3 months. Seriously, how much fun do you get out of 300 quid of GW goods? I enjoy painting them, but it is really hard to get people to have the time and space to play warhammer.
IA is a good replacement for the 40k style grand battle game. It is more expensive than X-wing, and takes up more time and space, but it is in competition with 40k, not X-wing. FFG would never have made it if it would cannibalise their own sales. It has been created as a more space, time and cost efficient strategy game than 40k, and they have done a marvellous job.
The only thing I don't like about IA is that, like a lot of FFG games it's a touch too complicated (in game design, complication is always bad. Complexity is good, but is a different thing to complication) and relies on the flat terrain boards.
If it was a 3D skirmish game like Infinity or Warmachine or SAGA then I'd be much happier with it. I bought the core set and a couple of expansions to paint, and I'm sure I'll get a couple of games in at some point, but I'll be looking to adapt the rules to use normal 3D wargames terrain.
But your overall point I 100% agree with. Armada and Imperial Assault are great value. Like I've said earlier, people used to playing board games and card games might balk at the cost of some expansions, but those people are not very likely to pick up the game anyway. People used to paying wargames prices for units and armies will see Armada as great value.
If it was a 3D skirmish game like Infinity or Warmachine or SAGA then I'd be much happier with it.
Which is... unconventional.
Generally, its the transition from a Grid/Board to Measurements and True LOS Mechanics that Complicates matters, rather than simplifying them
If it was a 3D skirmish game like Infinity or Warmachine or SAGA then I'd be much happier with it.
Which is... unconventional.
Generally, its the transition from a Grid/Board to Measurements and True LOS Mechanics that Complicates matters, rather than simplifying them
Maybe, but I tend to find it just encourages a more co-operative attitude between opponents. Of all the rules debates I've had in wargaming, very few of them have been about whether or not something was in range or LOS.
For me, the visual impact of a game is extremely important. Playing with unpainted figures on flat cardboard terrain is NOT what Star Wars is about, IMO.
If it was a 3D skirmish game like Infinity or Warmachine or SAGA then I'd be much happier with it.
Which is... unconventional.
Generally, its the transition from a Grid/Board to Measurements and True LOS Mechanics that Complicates matters, rather than simplifying them
Maybe, but I tend to find it just encourages a more co-operative attitude between opponents. Of all the rules debates I've had in wargaming, very few of them have been about whether or not something was in range or LOS.
For me, the visual impact of a game is extremely important. Playing with unpainted figures on flat cardboard terrain is NOT what Star Wars is about, IMO.
See, with that background, I understand the point of view much clearer
Sadly, my experience is the opposite... True LOS, in its opening months, was Hell at the GW Store I worked at, when it was introduced... Including Physical Altercations that ended with me threatening Size-13 GP Boot marks on arses unless they took it outside...
BattleTech has had a very rocky relationship with Board Game vs Miniature Game, and its only just recently that it seems they've sorted it with Alpha Strike...
So yes, in my experience - totally the opposite...
But for me, its the Models. I'll accept a flat Grid System if I get to push nice Miniatures around, one way or another...
* Also, we are totally spoiled with Infinity and its total reciprocal and true LOS... But even that gets boiled down with Minutae such as "Slicing the Pie" and the now semi-infamous "The Samaritan is S2"...
The game is very reasonably priced. Or you could try buying some Warmachine or 40K figures?
I stopped buying for that reason. I don't mind paying $ 15 for an extra x wing ship. I'll probably test it out in a list some day. With armada I'm spending $30-$50+ for a ship I may never use. That I mind.
The spread out cards model works at the x wing but not the armada price point. It adds $200 of extra ships to ever list I build...
The game is very reasonably priced. Or you could try buying some Warmachine or 40K figures?
I stopped buying for that reason. I don't mind paying $ 15 for an extra x wing ship. I'll probably test it out in a list some day. With armada I'm spending $30-$50+ for a ship I may never use. That I mind.
The spread out cards model works at the x wing but not the armada price point. It adds $200 of extra ships to ever list I build...
Stop playing in tournaments and you can proxy to your hearts content!
Edited by ArttemisI stopped buying for that reason. I don't mind paying $ 15 for an extra x wing ship. I'll probably test it out in a list some day. With armada I'm spending $30-$50+ for a ship I may never use. That I mind.
The spread out cards model works at the x wing but not the armada price point. It adds $200 of extra ships to ever list I build...
Stop playing in tournaments and you can proxy to your hearts content!
Why they aren't throwing in duplicates of the unique cards within each ship expansion escapes me. Would it really cannibalize that much of their sales? I wish they'd create and sell fleet upgrade cards packs.
I stopped buying for that reason. I don't mind paying $ 15 for an extra x wing ship. I'll probably test it out in a list some day. With armada I'm spending $30-$50+ for a ship I may never use. That I mind.
The spread out cards model works at the x wing but not the armada price point. It adds $200 of extra ships to ever list I build...
Stop playing in tournaments and you can proxy to your hearts content!
It's an artificial problem created by their rules. I don't need multiple copies of the X17 card or the TRC card on the table in order to actually play the game. They're there purely for reference. I can keep my entire list on a fleet-builder app on my phone or tablet and play just fine without ANY upgrade cards on the table.
FFG has decreed that you need the physical cards on the table though, and the only reason they've done this is to boost sales. They're not about to turn around and shoot themselves in the foot by offering those mandatory upgrades for cheap or even for free.
mandatory
This Word.
I have issues with it in this context.
I guess I'm just wistful for more positivity on the Armada forums these days...
Positive enough for ya, Dras?
Why they aren't throwing in duplicates of the unique cards within each ship expansion escapes me. Would it really cannibalize that much of their sales? I wish they'd create and sell fleet upgrade cards packs.I stopped buying for that reason. I don't mind paying $ 15 for an extra x wing ship. I'll probably test it out in a list some day. With armada I'm spending $30-$50+ for a ship I may never use. That I mind.
The spread out cards model works at the x wing but not the armada price point. It adds $200 of extra ships to ever list I build...
Stop playing in tournaments and you can proxy to your hearts content!
It's an artificial problem created by their rules. I don't need multiple copies of the X17 card or the TRC card on the table in order to actually play the game. They're there purely for reference. I can keep my entire list on a fleet-builder app on my phone or tablet and play just fine without ANY upgrade cards on the table.
FFG has decreed that you need the physical cards on the table though, and the only reason they've done this is to boost sales. They're not about to turn around and shoot themselves in the foot by offering those mandatory upgrades for cheap or even for free.
mandatory
This Word.
I have issues with it in this context.
I don't mean that including TRCs or X17s is mandatory, I mean that if you want to include them, then it's mandatory to have the cards on the table. Which I think is silly, especially for second and subsequent instances of that upgrade. Apart from boosting FFGs profit margin, there's no reason I would need seven TRC cards to use them on seven ships.
You mean like every other competitive game that uses cards? Just because you don't like the system does not mean it's broken.
Why they aren't throwing in duplicates of the unique cards within each ship expansion escapes me. Would it really cannibalize that much of their sales? I wish they'd create and sell fleet upgrade cards packs.
I stopped buying for that reason. I don't mind paying $ 15 for an extra x wing ship. I'll probably test it out in a list some day. With armada I'm spending $30-$50+ for a ship I may never use. That I mind.
The spread out cards model works at the x wing but not the armada price point. It adds $200 of extra ships to ever list I build...
Stop playing in tournaments and you can proxy to your hearts content!
It's an artificial problem created by their rules. I don't need multiple copies of the X17 card or the TRC card on the table in order to actually play the game. They're there purely for reference. I can keep my entire list on a fleet-builder app on my phone or tablet and play just fine without ANY upgrade cards on the table.
FFG has decreed that you need the physical cards on the table though, and the only reason they've done this is to boost sales. They're not about to turn around and shoot themselves in the foot by offering those mandatory upgrades for cheap or even for free.
Well, the thing is I can play a great game of Armada without ever laying an upgrade card on the table. If ever my opponent needs to know which upgrades are on which ships, I can verbally indicated where they are or I can show him my printed roster or I can show him a digital copy on my screen. If I need to refer to a cards text then I think it's important to have at least one copy of the card available for perusal since sometimes the digital versions don't get it right (although it's very rare) but, for a casual game, there is no need to actually put all those upgrade cards on the table.
The same is true for a tournament game EXCEPT that FFG requires those cards on the table. Why? For their own profit, no other reason.
You mean like every other competitive game that uses cards? Just because you don't like the system does not mean it's broken.
Why they aren't throwing in duplicates of the unique cards within each ship expansion escapes me. Would it really cannibalize that much of their sales? I wish they'd create and sell fleet upgrade cards packs.
I stopped buying for that reason. I don't mind paying $ 15 for an extra x wing ship. I'll probably test it out in a list some day. With armada I'm spending $30-$50+ for a ship I may never use. That I mind.
The spread out cards model works at the x wing but not the armada price point. It adds $200 of extra ships to ever list I build...
Stop playing in tournaments and you can proxy to your hearts content!
It's an artificial problem created by their rules. I don't need multiple copies of the X17 card or the TRC card on the table in order to actually play the game. They're there purely for reference. I can keep my entire list on a fleet-builder app on my phone or tablet and play just fine without ANY upgrade cards on the table.
FFG has decreed that you need the physical cards on the table though, and the only reason they've done this is to boost sales. They're not about to turn around and shoot themselves in the foot by offering those mandatory upgrades for cheap or even for free.
Well, the thing is I can play a great game of Armada without ever laying an upgrade card on the table. If ever my opponent needs to know which upgrades are on which ships, I can verbally indicated where they are or I can show him my printed roster or I can show him a digital copy on my screen. If I need to refer to a cards text then I think it's important to have at least one copy of the card available for perusal since sometimes the digital versions don't get it right (although it's very rare) but, for a casual game, there is no need to actually put all those upgrade cards on the table.
The same is true for a tournament game EXCEPT that FFG requires those cards on the table. Why? For their own profit, no other reason.
I think you misunderstand what Lyraeus is saying; this is not unique to Armada, but is completely normal for this style of game, and to expect Armada to buck that trend would make them a less profitable company. First and foremost, FFG is a business. I'm sure that they want their players to enjoy the game, but of course their primary goal is profit. If they made it so you didn't have to have the physical cards, they would be writing off thousands in income. I don't really see that as something we can criticise. Yes, it might be an altruistic move, but it would run the company into the ground, and then we wouldn't have a game to play at all.
As you point out, this only goes for tournaments. My local store is happy for me to use cards I don't physically have for practice. But I don't think it's unreasonable of them to expect that, in official tournament play, you have all the parts required. It's not just about profit; it makes it easier for judges to see clearly what's going on, and for your opponent to verify things. You might bring it on a screen, an opponent might not be able to. This standardises the system.
For the regionals, I just borrowed what I needed off a mate, with the offer that he could borrow what he needed from me. Even on that, FFG could have been stricter, requiring you to have your proof of purchase for the ship any cards you take come from, regardless of whether you take the ship itself. But they were relaxed on that.
You mean like every other competitive game that uses cards? Just because you don't like the system does not mean it's broken.Why they aren't throwing in duplicates of the unique cards within each ship expansion escapes me. Would it really cannibalize that much of their sales? I wish they'd create and sell fleet upgrade cards packs.I stopped buying for that reason. I don't mind paying $ 15 for an extra x wing ship. I'll probably test it out in a list some day. With armada I'm spending $30-$50+ for a ship I may never use. That I mind.
The spread out cards model works at the x wing but not the armada price point. It adds $200 of extra ships to ever list I build...
Stop playing in tournaments and you can proxy to your hearts content!
It's an artificial problem created by their rules. I don't need multiple copies of the X17 card or the TRC card on the table in order to actually play the game. They're there purely for reference. I can keep my entire list on a fleet-builder app on my phone or tablet and play just fine without ANY upgrade cards on the table.
FFG has decreed that you need the physical cards on the table though, and the only reason they've done this is to boost sales. They're not about to turn around and shoot themselves in the foot by offering those mandatory upgrades for cheap or even for free.
Well, the thing is I can play a great game of Armada without ever laying an upgrade card on the table. If ever my opponent needs to know which upgrades are on which ships, I can verbally indicated where they are or I can show him my printed roster or I can show him a digital copy on my screen. If I need to refer to a cards text then I think it's important to have at least one copy of the card available for perusal since sometimes the digital versions don't get it right (although it's very rare) but, for a casual game, there is no need to actually put all those upgrade cards on the table.
The same is true for a tournament game EXCEPT that FFG requires those cards on the table. Why? For their own profit, no other reason.
I think you misunderstand what Lyraeus is saying; this is not unique to Armada, but is completely normal for this style of game, and to expect Armada to buck that trend would make them a less profitable company. First and foremost, FFG is a business. I'm sure that they want their players to enjoy the game, but of course their primary goal is profit. If they made it so you didn't have to have the physical cards, they would be writing off thousands in income. I don't really see that as something we can criticise. Yes, it might be an altruistic move, but it would run the company into the ground, and then we wouldn't have a game to play at all.
As you point out, this only goes for tournaments. My local store is happy for me to use cards I don't physically have for practice. But I don't think it's unreasonable of them to expect that, in official tournament play, you have all the parts required. It's not just about profit; it makes it easier for judges to see clearly what's going on, and for your opponent to verify things. You might bring it on a screen, an opponent might not be able to. This standardises the system.
For the regionals, I just borrowed what I needed off a mate, with the offer that he could borrow what he needed from me. Even on that, FFG could have been stricter, requiring you to have your proof of purchase for the ship any cards you take come from, regardless of whether you take the ship itself. But they were relaxed on that.
It is fine not to lay a card down but unless they want their opponents to ask every few minutes what has what (which has occurred when I tried this) or you want to jip your opponent out of some of the basic strategy of the game (being able to just observe an opponents table and make plans vs having to ask a question and potentially giving plans away) than by all means.