Hi there,

This came up during a game this evening, and I am unsure of the correct resolution. I had Admiral Vader, and had reduced the speed of one of my ships to zero, to save it blundering into a Neb execution line, thinking that at speed zero I cannot spend a def token to resolve its effects during an attack, but that was all.

Then I had a thought, ....Doesn't Vader say you made spend a Def Token? me and my friend checked the rules and at the very end of the section detailing how you use Def Tokens when you are attacked, it explicitly states you cannot spend a Def Token if you are at speed zero. Obviously this was all written before Admiral Vader and his spend Def Tokens for Reroll shenanigans.

So the question is, can Vader spend a token for a reroll if the ship is at speed zero, the rules say cannot spend at speed zero, but and it is a big but, it is in the section for spending tokens for defensive effects while under attack, and Vader is not spending the token to generate a defensive effect nor is the ship in question being attacked.

We decided during the game the "cannot" is preventing his ability, with the intent when I got home to post this here.

That one is an interesting question! And I believe, an Interesting Answer from me!

Darth Vader (Admiral) is: "While a friendly ship is attacking a ship, it may spend 1 defense token to reroll any number of dice in its attack pool."

The actual rule in defense tokens that you are quoting is this:


• If the defender’s speed is “0,” it cannot spend defense tokens.

Now, of course, with Darth Vader, it gets even more interesting, because you are not the defender...

Which leads us to the second part, Golden Rule, "Cannot"

The Golden rule is this:

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

However , the Cannot in question here is not a Card Effect. Its a Rule effect...

So, Cannot doesn't actually apply as a Golden Override, so we look at the previous part of the Golden Rule:


Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

So you know what... Based on the most literal interpretations of the Rule, Darth Vader can Spend Defense Tokens while Attacking, even if he is at Speed 0...

I didn't expect to come to this conclusion, but I have !

I would suggest forwarding it to FFG, because of course, the intent may be to prevent it, because as you pointed out, the Rules were written pre Vader, just the same way they were written pre-Rieekan for those... And without their Direct Input, we cannot comment on their intent ...

Thanks Dras, up to your usual stellar standards.

My natural inclination was he could because it was about being attacked, but rather than a long drawn out discussion we went with he couldn't, till i could come ask.

As I suggest, I honestly didn't expect to come to that conclusion - and I honestly don't expect a lot of people to be comfortable with it, or believe me... I'm not sure I believe me

So when the rules say cannot, it's not golden? Lol

That one is an interesting question! And I believe, an Interesting Answer from me!

Darth Vader (Admiral) is: "While a friendly ship is attacking a ship, it may spend 1 defense token to reroll any number of dice in its attack pool."

The actual rule in defense tokens that you are quoting is this:

• If the defender’s speed is “0,” it cannot spend defense tokens.

Now, of course, with Darth Vader, it gets even more interesting, because you are not the defender...

Which leads us to the second part, Golden Rule, "Cannot"

The Golden rule is this:

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

However , the Cannot in question here is not a Card Effect. Its a Rule effect...

So, Cannot doesn't actually apply as a Golden Override, so we look at the previous part of the Golden Rule:

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

So you know what... Based on the most literal interpretations of the Rule, Darth Vader can Spend Defense Tokens while Attacking, even if he is at Speed 0...

I didn't expect to come to this conclusion, but I have !

I would suggest forwarding it to FFG, because of course, the intent may be to prevent it, because as you pointed out, the Rules were written pre Vader, just the same way they were written pre-Rieekan for those... And without their Direct Input, we cannot comment on their intent ...

Dras, thanks for looking through the whole thing. I've been doing experiments lately with Devastator, and hadn't noticed the critical wording regarding the "defender" portion of the rule. While I would like FFG to clarify it better, it hadn't even occurred to me that it might be possible. And something I'm realizing about Devastator is that using it correctly involves a lot of weird little bylines like this in the rules and stacking them into a sudden wall of mass-spends with zero warning to get the timing right when your opponent isn't ready for it.

So when the rules say cannot, it's not golden? Lol

No, its not. Card Effects Overwrite Rules, that is part of the Golden Rule.

But a CARD EFFECT that says Cannot, is Golden as well...

There are many parts to the Golden Rule.

The rule specifically states while a ship is defending at speed 0 it cannot us defense tokens. If Vader is attacking the rule does not apply. MHO

So when the rules say cannot, it's not golden? Lol

No, its not. Card Effects Overwrite Rules, that is part of the Golden Rule.

But a CARD EFFECT that says Cannot, is Golden as well...

There are many parts to the Golden Rule.

So a golden rule is a golden rule unless it's overriden by a golden-er rule. I get what you're saying and 100% agree, it just sounds funny.

I also agree with the ruling here. To me, the concept of no Defense Tokens at speed zero is to more reflect the fact that you're easier to hit. So instead of giving bonus dice or figuring out some confusing buff to the attack, they simply remove the ability to defend yourself. If it's a Vader token, how easy you are to hit doesn't effect your ability to spend ship resources when shooting at someone else.

Also, the rules clearly state "If the defender's speed. . ." You are not the defender, you may spend tokens.

So when the rules say cannot, it's not golden? Lol

No, its not. Card Effects Overwrite Rules, that is part of the Golden Rule.

But a CARD EFFECT that says Cannot, is Golden as well...

There are many parts to the Golden Rule.

Yes, I realize. It's quite funny though, that there is a golden rule of rule-breaking :-)

So does this mean that if the defender is at speed zero that Vader can't spend tokens on an attack? Because that's what it looks like. Of course that would be silly.

Yeah, it's defender cannot spend defense tokens, when you use Vader you are attacking. If a card or commander in the future allows you to spend a token for an alternate effect while defending, that would be a different argument.

So does this mean that if the defender is at speed zero that Vader can't spend tokens on an attack? Because that's what it looks like. Of course that would be silly.

No it does not mean that.

If Vader is attacking a ship that is at speed zero, the defending ship cannot spend Def Tokens, Vader is not on the defending ship, Vader is on the attacking ship.

Vader can always spend def tokens to resolve his reroll.