If they are only throwing a few dice at me per activation I will just have to see what I can take. I fully expect to kill the main carrier and if the carriers are flotillas than I will have to rush in, Intel Officer the scatter and do what I can as best as I can. Slicer Tools and Tractor Beams help to slow down enemy flotillas.

One thing I will have to get used to is moving a Flotilla in last or near last, so that it can Slicer tool the bigger carrier. When people start taking Wing Commander ok them, I will have won an important battle. Forcing my opponents to spend 6 points per carrier which is no Lando, Intel Officer, Engineering Captain, and less squadrons

Oh! One more thing along this track. I have AA dice. Let them send their squadrons. If I have not set up a run yet and they want to send squadrons into 6 ships worth of AA they can go ahead. The GR75's have back dice and the rest have blue. I will whittle bombers away.

Oh! One more thing along this track. I have AA dice. Let them send their squadrons. If I have not set up a run yet and they want to send squadrons into 6 ships worth of AA they can go ahead. The GR75's have back dice and the rest have blue. I will whittle bombers away.

I think you are really overestimating your AA fire and vastly underestimating the power of an unfettered Rhymerball. Also every AA shot is one that isn't going at a ship. I think your list is pretty cool, and I am a big fan of Dodonna, but the idea that you won't have trouble with big bomber swarms is unrealistic.

Oh! One more thing along this track. I have AA dice. Let them send their squadrons. If I have not set up a run yet and they want to send squadrons into 6 ships worth of AA they can go ahead. The GR75's have back dice and the rest have blue. I will whittle bombers away.

I think you are really overestimating your AA fire and vastly underestimating the power of an unfettered Rhymerball. Also every AA shot is one that isn't going at a ship. I think your list is pretty cool, and I am a big fan of Dodonna, but the idea that you won't have trouble with big bomber swarms is unrealistic.

Not really. I have done this to several players with wave 2 DtO. When you get 3-4 ships wih an arc on squadrons, they will start taking damage fast. Now sure, I won't kill them in a turn but if my opponent is just using Squadron Commands that means he is not dodging me. If he is not dodging me I can kill his ships.

Yes every shot at a squadron is not going at a ship and you are right that I prioritize ship kills over squadrons but there are many times where I just don't have a shot at a ship or my shot is pointless (1 red die at a ship with multiple evades and I don't have another Intel Officer to use or like situations).

Anytime I face a squadron heavy list, I expect to lose 1-3 ships. So the dilemma is how I make those points back.

Every game is a new one and so the challenges are new. You as a player, has to be flexible in your planning and execution

Ideas on any tweaks? I am planning on playing this in the next Vassal Tournament.

Ideas on any tweaks? I am planning on playing this in the next Vassal Tournament.

I'd say it is time to test. We can always go back and forth on tweaks. I just think you've been through enough iterations of the list to know its strengths and weaknesses and tweaks at this point count as second-guessing. After you see how the tournament went, you'll have a good idea on where to tweak and we can read that list and your commentary on what worked and didn't.

Now, get out there and win!

Ideas on any tweaks? I am planning on playing this in the next Vassal Tournament.

I'd say it is time to test. We can always go back and forth on tweaks. I just think you've been through enough iterations of the list to know its strengths and weaknesses and tweaks at this point count as second-guessing. After you see how the tournament went, you'll have a good idea on where to tweak and we can read that list and your commentary on what worked and didn't.

Now, get out there and win!

Thank you for your faith it is galvanizing

I like the list a lot Lyr, my only concern is if the flotilla utility is worth sacrificing firepower. I believe it is though, so it should do well.

Here is my Dodonna the Oppressor list for wave 3!

Wave 3 Dodonna the Oppressor

Author: Lyraeus

Faction: Rebel Alliance

Points: 383/400

Commander: General Dodonna

Assault Objective: Most Wanted

Defense Objective: Fire Lanes

Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep [ flagship ] CR90 Corvette A (44 points)

- General Dodonna ( 20 points)

- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)CR90 Corvette A (44 points)

- Intel Officer ( 7 points)

- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points) MC30c Scout Frigate (69 points)

- Intel Officer ( 7 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points) MC30c Scout Frigate (69 points)

- Admonition ( 8 points)

- Intel Officer ( 7 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points) GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)

- Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points)

- Slicer Tools ( 7 points) GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)

- Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points)

- Slicer Tools ( 7 points)

I think you're going to struggle with the squadron lists in early W3. I too have been having success with the Slicer Tools neutering the carriers in my own W3 MC30 list, but i also bring a cloud of X-wings to push that advantage. Without any squadron support at all you're going to run into problems dealing with squadrons prepositioned along your MC30s' attack vector.

With even just a token squadron screen, you could shut down the carriers, charge the MC30's in, and then pin the threatening bombers with your own squadrons for the one turn before the MC30 strike hits.

Where to get the points for the squadrons? No idea. I know you like Scouts, otherwise that would be the obvious choice for me--drop to Torpedo/H9 instead of Scout/TRC. The flagship is another option: since it has no IO anyway, you'd lose less--relatively speaking--by stripping it down to a naked B model, or even slap him on Bright Hope and call it a day.

Other than the squadron thing, though, I love it. And if you get a good matchup where you don't have to deal with a heavy fighter presence, you'll do great. If I ever get over my loathing of the Scouts, this is how I'll likely run them.

Edit: formatting is stupid and I hate it. Too lazy to fix it.

Squadrons along the route ofy MC30's done really bother me much. I am getting real artistic with speed 3 and 4 on the MC30's. I don't know how they will stand up to bomber command center though. . .

Squadrons along the route ofy MC30's done really bother me much. I am getting real artistic with speed 3 and 4 on the MC30's. I don't know how they will stand up to bomber command center though. . .

I agree with this absolutely. So I have a different question:

Which title would you take on a GR75 slicer tool flotilla as they are susceptible to squads and likely to be under fire as they go near the carrier to switch out the squadron commands? I cant decide, Quantum storm gives the extra move to maybe escape, but maybe bright hope just dodges all but double hits!

Squadrons along the route ofy MC30's done really bother me much. I am getting real artistic with speed 3 and 4 on the MC30's. I don't know how they will stand up to bomber command center though. . .

I agree with this absolutely. So I have a different question:

Which title would you take on a GR75 slicer tool flotilla as they are susceptible to squads and likely to be under fire as they go near the carrier to switch out the squadron commands? I cant decide, Quantum storm gives the extra move to maybe escape, but maybe bright hope just dodges all but double hits!

Quantum Storm if you are going to play arc dodger or plan on getting out of a squadrons range (happens less often though), Bright Hope if you expect heavy squadrons and learn how to cut inside into what could be dangerous territory.

Cool fleet! I'm pretty new to Armada. What do you mean by "Dodonna the Oppressor"? I'm probably missing something really obvious...

Its just his nickname....

Utilising Dodonna as an Admiral, and then basing the intended tactics of the list around brutally oppressing the enemy's defense tokens with Intel Officers...

So consider it an "Archtype"...

Cool fleet! I'm pretty new to Armada. What do you mean by "Dodonna the Oppressor"? I'm probably missing something really obvious...

Its just his nickname....

Utilising Dodonna as an Admiral, and then basing the intended tactics of the list around brutally oppressing the enemy's defense tokens with Intel Officers...

So consider it an "Archtype"...

It is as Drasnighta said. The list originated from me wanting to make Dodonna come back as a good Admiral. He was on the decline becuase he did nothing for your fleet. So I built a list with 3x CR90's with Turbolaser Reroute Circuits, 2x MC30's with Assault Proton Torpedoes, Ordnance Experts, Turbolaser Reroute Circuits, and all five ships had Intel Officer (which is where the Oppressor part comes from)

The Intel officers showed me that I could come in and just strip a ship of its defense tokens in the Spam of a turn. It did not matter if it was an ISD or a MC80. It's tokens disappeared fast. From there my MC30's helped bolster he Oppressor title by allowing Dodonna to run roughshod over people with Assault Proton Torpedoes which allowed me to choose their crit.

The list is high maintenance though, fly it wrong and it will be over for you. My most memorable near loss was due to 2 mistakes where I won by 1 MoV due to a Structural Damage on an MC30 and me ramming a ship when I plotted an Engineering Command and not a navigate.

This list is strong and we shall see if it can handle wave 3. This could be the end of DtO, but I hope not.

I wanted my list to be considered an Archetype. Sadly most lump it into Rebel Many Small Units (MSU) which while it is a part of that group it functions a bit differently from the classic due to how aggressive it plays.

Now that we have Flotillas coming out, it is further diverting from the Rebel MSU while adding in a controlling aspect via Slicer Tools and Tractor Beams. Thus becoming more oppressive

Sadly most lump it into Rebel Many Small Units (MSU) which while it is a part of that group it functions a bit differently from the classic due to how aggressive it plays.

Meh... every list has unique things about it. And, hell, my own 30/30/90/90/90 probably requires even more aggressive play than this. Same with the Rieekan SW90B swarm. It's hardly a feature that distinguishes DtO from every other Rebel swarm list.

Rebel MSU is a pretty broad category, just like Rhymerball is. If there were lots of people out there playing variations of the "maximize two MC30's with activations" list, it would probably be recognized as an archetype for referential convenience.

And as it is, I am seeing more and more people stretching their shrimpin' legs, so comparable builds may grow in popularity until people refer to them as a group. It's probably not going to be referred to as DtO, though, because neither Dodonna nor IO "oppression" is the only way to make it tick, so it would be a misnomer for pretty much anything that's not exactly your list. You wouldn't see people calling it a DeMSU if you could use either Demo or Insidious to make it the same build work well. Similarly, you won't see people referring to swarms with MC30's as "DtO" when you can replace Dodonna with almost any other admiral, or IOs with H9's or (according to some...) Sensor Teams, or whatever, for comparable results.

It's not a slam against your list. This list is very good. But until others start varying it and it gets popular enough that there are many of them out there, there's just no reason to refer to it as anything but itself. That would be like building a CH-47 and hoping people categorize it as a "Chinook" instead of a "helicopter" because it uses tandem rotors instead of a tail rotor.

Sadly most lump it into Rebel Many Small Units (MSU) which while it is a part of that group it functions a bit differently from the classic due to how aggressive it plays.

Meh... every list has unique things about it. And, hell, my own 30/30/90/90/90 probably requires even more aggressive play than this. Same with the Rieekan SW90B swarm. It's hardly a feature that distinguishes DtO from every other Rebel swarm list.

Rebel MSU is a pretty broad category, just like Rhymerball is. If there were lots of people out there playing variations of the "maximize two MC30's with activations" list, it would probably be recognized as an archetype for referential convenience.

And as it is, I am seeing more and more people stretching their shrimpin' legs, so comparable builds may grow in popularity until people refer to them as a group. It's probably not going to be referred to as DtO, though, because neither Dodonna nor IO "oppression" is the only way to make it tick, so it would be a misnomer for pretty much anything that's not exactly your list. You wouldn't see people calling it a DeMSU if you could use either Demo or Insidious to make it the same build work well. Similarly, you won't see people referring to swarms with MC30's as "DtO" when you can replace Dodonna with almost any other admiral, or IOs with H9's or (according to some...) Sensor Teams, or whatever, for comparable results.

It's not a slam against your list. This list is very good. But until others start varying it and it gets popular enough that there are many of them out there, there's just no reason to refer to it as anything but itself. That would be like building a CH-47 and hoping people categorize it as a "Chinook" instead of a "helicopter" because it uses tandem rotors instead of a tail rotor.

To be fair, the Chinook is in a subclass of Helicopter. . .

True, the blue dice list variants do require a lot more aggression but to me they just don't pan out as well. It is like sword fighting, if you lean too far forward you will expose your back to an attack.

If anything I would classify lists like your list and mine as a 30Swarm. Rebel MSU is TOO broad a category, there are Neb Swarms, 90 swarms, Rieekan Swarms (90b's), Yavaris swarm, and even an Ackbar Swarm.

So yes, this list is a subclass of Rebel Swarm called a 30swarm. If we broke it down to another subclass it would be a TRC30 swarm.

To be a 30swarm, you have to have at least 4 activations and 2x MC30's.

Ah, but at the moment there arent different rebel swarms! Ards corvettes is very rare and has a varied history of success.

What you need is wave 4, and someone to turn Neb swarms into a real thing of beauty.

THEN we will get subclasses. Until then Rebel MSU generally is 2 MC30 3 CR90s.

That was a challenge I faced with the regionals data collection. Initially I wanted to have smaller groupings, but it didn't work out well for displaying the data in a meaningful way. Part of that was due to sample size.

The trouble really came when I started comparing some of the categories. Either the differences weren't meaningful or they were exaggerated. Initially I had 4 and 5 ship Demolisher lists separated, but then it appeared that Rhymerballs were completely dominating everything. When I aggregated the Demolisher based categories together, it was much closer.

So, I had to work with more broad archetypes to get the sample size up and make the data more meaningful on a large scale.

As I was inputting the lists I definitely kept an eye out for patterns and had I noticed one that appeared significant I would have likely teased it out.

So you are right to tier the archetypes. Your fleet is very much a part of the broad group I called Rebel Swarm. From there it could fit into a group of either Dodonna, MC-30, or Intel Officer swarms. Even at that level though, the sample size becomes so small it is hard to make meaning from on a large level.

If I do this again I will probably have people nominate archetypes for me to track.

That was a challenge I faced with the regionals data collection. Initially I wanted to have smaller groupings, but it didn't work out well for displaying the data in a meaningful way. Part of that was due to sample size.

The trouble really came when I started comparing some of the categories. Either the differences weren't meaningful or they were exaggerated. Initially I had 4 and 5 ship Demolisher lists separated, but then it appeared that Rhymerballs were completely dominating everything. When I aggregated the Demolisher based categories together, it was much closer.

So, I had to work with more broad archetypes to get the sample size up and make the data more meaningful on a large scale.

As I was inputting the lists I definitely kept an eye out for patterns and had I noticed one that appeared significant I would have likely teased it out.

So you are right to tier the archetypes. Your fleet is very much a part of the broad group I called Rebel Swarm. From there it could fit into a group of either Dodonna, MC-30, or Intel Officer swarms. Even at that level though, the sample size becomes so small it is hard to make meaning from on a large level.

If I do this again I will probably have people nominate archetypes for me to track.

I think the ones you're using are pretty useful. I assume you're manually flagging fleets by archetype? I wonder if it would be more valuable to define your categories rigorously and flag their type automatically: DeMSU is 5+ activations with Demo; Rhymer is Rhymer with (TIE/sa + Firespray) > 3; MC30 MSU is 2X MC30 and activations >= 4; "other" is anything that doesn't match any existing archetype. Then you could define additional archetypes later as they emerge, which might reclassify older ones that grew in popularity and carried out into their own archetypes (for example, the MC80 + corvettes that I think is currently classified as "rebel swarm").

Anyway, I'm just kind of spitballing ideas here. I thought your classifications were generally pretty spot-on. The only two that were *really* topics of discussion at the time you were classifying were DeMSU and Rhymerball, and I think you captured both of those well.

I'd like to get things a bit more automated if I do this again next Regionals season. Manually sorting fleets into archetypes was at times a real challenge. Your suggestions does fit with something I was considering. At one point I was seeing a lot of 80-30-30 buidls and 3x Vics. I initially made them their own archetypes, but really they were often just sub-types of existing archetypes.

What might be interesting is to sort fleets into a few broad categories like I have been and then have them automatically flagged based on composition. It would take quite the script to look for all of the permutations of Rebel Swarms and I worry too many would get sorted into the 'Other' category. But, I could see using that to pull out some common configurations. Of course, my Excel skills are limited. So maybe I will recruit someone better than me to help next time.

See, I don't know. Let's take DtO. If I removed the Intel Officers this list would function differently. On top of having points for 2 A-Wings or such, it would changey list dynamic and it's strategy. It would still need to focus fire a ship down but it would lose the capacity to utterly strip a ship of its capacity to defend itself properly. This would mean extra turns of that brace, it would also limit the decisions of my opponents which means less pressure and thus they can formulate a plan better.

This list works on that set of theory. To destabilize my opponent by forcing hard choices, by stripping my opponent of the concept of defense, and to control my opponents actions through the use of movement and critical effects.

If any of that is lost, it is no longer DtO.

A Rhymerball has a function like that. It pressures your opponents with medium range shots that they don't have many options to deal with. The ships are support in a list like that. (triple VSD usually falls here)

Then there is the other style of Rhymerball which is a Support Rhymer, where the player uses a smaller Rhymerball to weaken a ship before his ships deliver a Knockout attack (ISD and Demolisher Rhymerballs usually fall here)

Here are many archetypes out there and each has it own methodology. This is one reason I prefer Armada to X-Wing. Sure both have "archetypes" in heir lists but in X-Wing if someone I playing Twin Laser Turrets you know how to deal with it since it's methodology is not that different between lists.

In Armada, a Rebel Swarm could be 10 different methodologies and each will require a different approach in order to take them on.

Lyraeus, if we break archetypes down to that degree, we will have over 100 archetypes and an insufficient data to learn anything.

I agree with everything you say, but its more the argument that netlisting doesnt work in armada, rather than that there should be more archetypes.

For the purposes of classification, fewer is better. For most customizable games, there usually aren't more 7 or 8 real archetypes. I've seen as few as three. It is also possible to justly speak of "hybrid" fleets that cross boundaries between archetypes. Armada is a bit more difficult to classify than most because there is so much customization of individual ships possible, from which those two fleets will play very differently. Furthermore, there's a lot of fluidity across archetypes. Where another game might have a hard "swarm" archetype and a hard "big gun" archetype, playing something in between is perfectly doable in Armada. In some games, if you try to split the difference in its archetypes, you just end up with a build that is jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, and it doesn't do anything well enough. It might be worth having a good conversation on what is an archetype and why in the general discussion. Lyraeus, you've been a great contributor of ideas to the community, and I'd hate to derail discussion of DTO with more discussion of archetypes.