While I agree that it's frustrating to have to examine everything in the context of Demo, that sort of thing is really kind of inevitable as discussion of any game gets to a high level of competition. We're talking here specifically in the context of preparing fleets for Regionals+ level competition, which is bringing most of the best players in the world out together.

Certainly, there is a place for playing fleets because they're fun to play or based on a canon-historical battle; there's a place for non-standard fleet construction rules, asymmetric games, scenarios, juggling Star Destroyers, or whatever. But in the context of most of these discussions, how competitive the fleet is takes a pretty substantial priority, particularly for players who think they might actually have a chance of doing well in these competitions.

So, I certainly feel the same way about Demo. Just, don't misinterpret this (at least my) ad nauseam nitpicking to mean you shouldn't ever play anything that's not tuned to a razor's edge. Play stuff because it's fun, it's a game after all. Most of my lists that I consider competitive, have started by just playing something that sounded like fun.

Plotting against me I see...

You will NOT prevail!

Some thoughts:

DeMSU IS very difficult to play against.

I took MM (3TRC90s, AF, MC30) for a spin vs. clon yesterday, and I felt I did pretty well. There were a couple of things I could have done differently, which should have improved my final MoV a bit. But I don't see how I can reliably turn his into anything better than 7-3 or 6-4. Which isn't half bad, mind you, but hardly the score to get me to the top table.

That said, I thing clon's "clonisher" is about as bad as these lists get. It's those **** Exp launcher raiders (2 of them to boot) that makes it so dangerous. Demo can be neutered or retaliated against, but clon has so many other threat sources that killing Demo won't help you too much.

What would have helped me was going first. I could have left Leia at home and gone to 380, enough to give me first. Not good enough vs. those lists in the 370s, but naked raiders don't scare me as much.

Rieekan also helps - or possibly Ackbar, but he makes a good bid harder. Sorry MM, but your evades just aren't good enough

Plotting against me I see...

You will NOT prevail!

Rieekan also helps - or possibly Ackbar, but he makes a good bid harder. Sorry MM, but your evades just aren't good enough

Not sure Mon Mothma stuck around long enough for any real assessment

Bleh. . . I hate the fact that we are being pigeon holed into Rieekan.

This does well against squadron heavy lists. They usually don't have a high bid so you can go first take a few lumps from the squadrons (I do usually go in with 1 MC30 at a time and let the other and the CR90's snipe) and pummel that Carrier. You will lost ships but just make sure that your trade off was worth it.

I dont see how Rieekan helps against DeMSU unless you can protect him. So if you dont have an MC80 then it matters little.

I am building my list to work without an admiral as its to easy to fall apart when the flagship dies.

Rieekan let's you block with ships that can still activate and punish Demolisher or other ships. This means that you have a turn to lower your opponents activation count so that you are not behind.

Rieekan let's you block with ships that can still activate and punish Demolisher or other ships. This means that you have a turn to lower your opponents activation count so that you are not behind.

^This.

Do not underestimate the power of an exposed and dying TRC90 - it can block you for an entire round, and shoot you in the face for loads of damage. With any other admiral you are so much more limited (and predictable) in your activation order.

Plotting against me I see...

You will NOT prevail!

Rieekan also helps - or possibly Ackbar, but he makes a good bid harder. Sorry MM, but your evades just aren't good enough

Not sure Mon Mothma stuck around long enough for any real assessment

True. I misdeployed her by a few inches initially - she was supposed to go behind the station - and then further out, either dying one round later and drawing Demo out of the fight completely OR be ignored to look back around Demo and TRC it. As it was I fumbled that a bit.

But the point is this: at the ranges DeMSUs operate, MM doesn't do much good. She does SOME good, but not enough. And she's powerless to do anything meaningful about super-Demo strikes (and I'm not talking pure tripple-tap, the single front-attack can be bad enough).

I would hate to lose Dodonna that way. One reason I would watch my deployment and take ample measurements. Which is one downside to Vassal. It is hard to check such measurements at times.

Every scenario in my head that I run has me losing far too much far too fast.

I lost at Vancouver. . . Won game 1 with an 8-2 (149 MOV), then a 10-0 (354 mov) then lost 10-0.. . It was against a 4 glad list (something I don't have experience with) who had 2 Aggressors, IG88, Boask and TIE Vader.

I played it all wrong. . . It. . . Was just wrong.

Today, I'm running a variation, based on Cards and Ships I actually -own-...

Rieekan-the-not-quite-as-ruthless-an-Oppressor-as-that-bastard-Dodonna....

[ REBEL FLEET (389 points)
1 • MC30c Torpedo Frigate - Assault Proton Torpedoes - Foresight (76)
2 • MC30c Torpedo Frigate - Assault Proton Torpedoes - Admonition (76)
3 • Nebulon-B Support Refit - General Rieekan - Intel Officer - Salvation (95)
4 • CR90 Corellian Corvette A - Intel Officer - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (58)
5 • CR90 Corellian Corvette A - Intel Officer - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (58)
6 • Han Solo Millennium Falcon (26)
7 • Objectives - Advanced Gunnery - Hyperspace Assault - Intel Sweep (0)

I only have 3 Intel officers and 2 Turbolaser Reroutes... And 2 of each ship, so compromise with the Neb-B and Rieekan... Because, I've never used Rieekan so far.

Calgary Bids are usually more measured. 11 points should put me at the choice of first more often than not, and Rieekan gives me a bit of a pillow should I be second...

So, Thanks Lyraeus - for inspiring me to do things I've never done before:

Multiple MC30s

Rieekan and Dodonna (he comes next)

Intel Officers

Generally all small ships.

Today, I'm running a variation, based on Cards and Ships I actually -own-...

Rieekan-the-not-quite-as-ruthless-an-Oppressor-as-that-bastard-Dodonna....

[ REBEL FLEET (389 points)1 • MC30c Torpedo Frigate - Assault Proton Torpedoes - Foresight (76)2 • MC30c Torpedo Frigate - Assault Proton Torpedoes - Admonition (76)3 • Nebulon-B Support Refit - General Rieekan - Intel Officer - Salvation (95)4 • CR90 Corellian Corvette A - Intel Officer - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (58)5 • CR90 Corellian Corvette A - Intel Officer - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (58)6 • Han Solo Millennium Falcon (26)7 • Objectives - Advanced Gunnery - Hyperspace Assault - Intel Sweep (0)

I only have 3 Intel officers and 2 Turbolaser Reroutes... And 2 of each ship, so compromise with the Neb-B and Rieekan... Because, I've never used Rieekan so far.

Calgary Bids are usually more measured. 11 points should put me at the choice of first more often than not, and Rieekan gives me a bit of a pillow should I be second...

So, Thanks Lyraeus - for inspiring me to do things I've never done before:

Multiple MC30s

Rieekan and Dodonna (he comes next)

Intel Officers

Generally all small ships.

These are very demanding lists. You always have to have an open mind when playing them and you can't, can't, CANNOT, tilt. Once you do it will likely be game over.

Well, I had two games today against a list that was essentially:

ISD-1
Tarkin

Boosted Comms
Hangar

Raider
Instigator

Raider

Rhymer

Dengar

4x Bombers

2x Firesprays

2x Advanced

...

So, game one, I took Rieekan-the-not-quite-as-ruthless-an-Oppressor-as-that-bastard-Dodonna...

Deployment was faceoff - His ISD in the middle of the deployment zone, as far back as possible, flanked by both raiders and the Ball scattered about in front of them all.

I had both Corvettes pointed directly at the ISD, and each Corvette was flanked on the outside by an MC30. Admo on the Right, Foresight on the left.

Salvation was on the Far right, looking at his flanking raider, and Han was on the left, with that raider, who had the 2 firesprays.

He only had 380 points, bidding hard, so took first player and chose Advanced Gunnery from my list... He took the ISD, I chose Admonition.

I flew the four ships who were capable of it in at Speed 4... Both Corvettes moving to block the Raider and the ISD, with the two Frigates moving to pincer the ISD... Salvation trundled across the table, aiming for the center of it, like it was Take the Station or something.

He moved all of his forward at speed 1, hoping I'd over extend.

Over extend I did in round 2. Corvettes screamed in, Frigates Pincered. Admonition lost some shields to part of the Rhymer Ball, and one Corvette was stripped but alive as well... In return, Han had locked down both Firesprays and drawn Dengar over to that fight.

Turn 3, he activated the ISD for Squadrons - doing more pepper damage, and forcing me to essentially exhaust everything on Corvette 1. Corvette one then Died-and-Rose Again from the front arc shot... Corvette 2 Soakedup the Front Arc of the ISD and lived due to poor rolling and little dice manipulation on his end.

ZombieCorvette1 then concentrated its fire and put HIT-HIT, ACC, HIT, CRIT into the ISD's front... Which became 6 Damage and an ACC after TRCs... Thumping through almost all of the shields despite the redirect... Then a Ram on it...

His Raider Zombified Corvette 2, who was blocking it... And Returned with its fire, killing the Raider....

His third Raider smacked Han around a bit... But had nothing shoot at it...

Then Admonition unloaded into the ISD's side Arc, Twice, with its own Side Arc... Pouring on 12 damage over the two shots, including only a single APT - as my second attack was Four-Hits on the blacks without OE...

Needless to say, the ISD folded when Foresight hit with a Double-Arc on the Other Side...

Rieekan unfortunately was still taken out by a combination of the Rhymer Ball, Firesprays and the Raider as he shot diagonally across the Table - His death in turn 5 was my lowest point, which really, wasn't that low...

Game ended with most of his Squadrons Alive (I'd killed Rhymer and both advanced with anti-squadron fire).

I'd lost both Corvettes and Rieekan's Nebulon, as well as Han.

But the bonus points from taking out his Advanced Gunnery Target, while mine was still alive (it never slowed down from Speed 4 and was hooking slowly around the board to make an attack on his Raider at approximately turn 11.... ) meant it was a hefty victory.

I was surprised at just how quickly I went through that ISD...

Big ships fold under 2 TRC30's. Even normal MC30's will chew up a big ship

Going to have WWPDSteven try this variation out.

I would like him to fly it against a Rhymerball if at all possible.