Why would you need to ban SLAM? No legal ship can take it. Well, except for Burnout SLAM on the Falcon but that can't fire torpedoes.

In Dave's latest update (work in progress) he offers several different options on how to build the squads that will be fighting. Two of these, Open Format and Unlikely Heroes, would allow any ship to join the fight.

I'm getting ready to try some of the changes. Having some issues placing the nodes on the Imperial side, no closer than range 2 to other items.

Yep, SLAM needs to be banned.

I'm getting ready to try some of the changes. Having some issues placing the nodes on the Imperial side, no closer than range 2 to other items.

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/bcdenzerBiffindy/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsv7e7oxce.jpeg

Should probably be "at least Range 1 from any edges, and at least Range 2 from the trench, turbolasers and other power nodes".

Yep, SLAM needs to be banned.

I'm getting ready to try some of the changes. Having some issues placing the nodes on the Imperial side, no closer than range 2 to other items.http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/bcdenzerBiffindy/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsv7e7oxce.jpeg

Should probably be "at least Range 1 from any edges, and at least Range 2 from the trench, turbolasers and other power nodes".

Ah, that is better...

Why would you need to ban SLAM? No legal ship can take it. Well, except for Burnout SLAM on the Falcon but that can't fire torpedoes.

In Dave's latest update (work in progress) he offers several different options on how to build the squads that will be fighting. Two of these, Open Format and Unlikely Heroes, would allow any ship to join the fight.

Would that not also allow ships with native boost?

I think I've got it: "Ships cannot perform boost or SLAM actions within the tight confines of the trench zone."

How about this:

"Limited Mobility in the Trench: A ship may not perform a boost or SLAM action while in the tight confines of the trench zone. Immediately after a ship in the trench zone executes a Koiogran Turn, Segnor’s Loop or Tallon Roll, it is returned to the surface zone. If this results in an overlap with a ship already in the surface zone, the active ship is destroyed."

And how about this for drifting:

How about this:

"Limited Mobility in the Trench: A ship may not perform a boost or SLAM action while in the tight confines of the trench zone. Immediately after a ship in the trench zone executes a Koiogran Turn, Segnor’s Loop or Tallon Roll, it is returned to the surface zone. If this results in an overlap with a ship already in the surface zone, the active ship is destroyed."

And how about this for drifting:

"Any ship in the trench may perform a free drift action immediately after executing a maneuver. To perform a drift, place the long edge of a 1-straight template flush with either the left or right side of your ship base, and not extending beyond its front or back edges. Then move the ship backward and fit the front guides to the rear of the template. You cannot perform this action if it would result in overlapping another ship. After performing a drift action, you may spend an action to gain 1 evade token."

What's the rationale for ship destruction when an overlap occurs on exit of the trench? Is this destruction just limited to overlaps resulting from K-turn, S-Loop or T-roll?

I like the new drift write-up. I'd prefer taking an action to add one defense die over a single evade token. The maneuver's effect is applicable against anyone attempting to shoot at that target, rather than just once. I find this to be more realistic. If a ship jinks, all attackers will be effected, not just one of them.

What's the rationale for ship destruction when an overlap occurs on exit of the trench? Is this destruction just limited to overlaps resulting from K-turn, S-Loop or T-roll?

I like the new drift write-up. I'd prefer taking an action to add one defense die over a single evade token. The maneuver's effect is applicable against anyone attempting to shoot at that target, rather than just once. I find this to be more realistic. If a ship jinks, all attackers will be effected, not just one of them.

How bout:

Have you considered redesigning the map? It strikes me as an easier way of handling the overlap problem and it might be a way of making the scenario more space friendly too.

For example, you could have the surface zone be a 3x3 standard mat (the Death Star mat for example, although a few power nodes and turbolasers would be satellites if you used that). The Rebels set up on one side, the Imperials on the other, and the Trench Entry is in the Imperial setup zone.

It does make the Trench much shorter (it takes longer to reach it through the surface zone however) so it might be worth having a speed penalty of 1 to a minimum of 1 to all maneuvers in the Trench Zone if the runs become too fast. That also stops the Rebels doing 1-speed moves to force the Imperials to overtake them.

Ships that fly off the map through trench entry are removed from play. Ships removed in that way set up at the start of the next round at the bottom of the trench. Imperials set up first, followed by Rebels (so if both factions enter the trench at the same time the Imperials end up behind).

Ships that execute maneuvers that aren't banks or straights in the trench or who fly out of the trench are removed from play in the same way and set up at the start of the next round in their setup areas

An example of what I'm talking about. In this example the Trench Entry is in the Imperial setup area, which makes it very easy for the Empire to get their fighters into the trench and back into the trench as Vader somehow does in the film. The shorter length of the Trench compensates for this: there'll be more runs but they'll be more lethal.

PDF is updated, changes are in red:

http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-v3.pdf

What's the rationale for ship destruction when an overlap occurs on exit of the trench? Is this destruction just limited to overlaps resulting from K-turn, S-Loop or T-roll?

I like the new drift write-up. I'd prefer taking an action to add one defense die over a single evade token. The maneuver's effect is applicable against anyone attempting to shoot at that target, rather than just once. I find this to be more realistic. If a ship jinks, all attackers will be effected, not just one of them.

How bout:

Leaving the Trench: If your ship is in the trench zone, after performing a maneuver or making any other change in position, regardless of the source of that movement, you must check to see if the ship remains in the trench zone. If any part of the ship base is outside of the trench, the ship immediately returns to the surface, receives 1 stress token, and rolls 1 attack die, suffering any [damage] or [critical damage] result.

If your ship base is entirely within the trench during the Perform Action step, you may spend an action to return to the surface.

If a ship leaves the trench zone and this results in an overlap with another ship in the surface zone, resolve this overlap normally.

Immediately after a ship in the trench zone executes a Koiogran Turn, Segnor’s Loop or Tallon Roll, the ship leaves the trench. If this results in an overlap, the acting ship will be rotated back 180°, and its most recent movement will be reversed until no longer overlapping, as usual when these sorts of maneuvers are interrupted by overlaps.

Does that say enough to cover these situations? Initially I thought it would be too complicated to resolve up-from-the-trench zone overlaps resulting from turny-aroundy maneuvers, but I guess it's pretty obvious how to handle it. It seemed safer to just blow up the ship that would need repositioning, especially if there were *weird* repositioning effects that needed to be reversed. If those sorts of problems crop up, I guess we can consider the nuclear option again.

If drifting gives +1 agility, then Y-Wings roll 4 defense dice against trench turbolasers, and X-Wings roll 6. But even at 2 and 3 agility, it makes basic Rebel ships pretty tanky against 2-attack-dice TIE fighters. The overuse of drifting runs the risk of cluttering up the trench, as TIEs can't fly slow enough to avoid bumping, so I don't want to make it too enticing, even if it is free. If it turns out that the Rebels really need more defense, I'd be inclined to increase the number of evade tokens (probably no higher than 2) to avoid having to adjust the turbolaser rules.

Watch the wording on your inter-zone collision procedure - the T-Roll results in a 180 deg facing change by executing a 90 deg facing change at the completion of the maneuver. Your wording might confuse folks. If the intent is to basically follow the rules as if the overlapping ship had begun its turn in the new zone, it might be simpler to basically just say that. "Immediately after a ship in the trench zone executes a Koiogran Turn, Segnor’s Loop or Tallon Roll, the ship leaves the trench. If this results in an overlap, address the overlap as if the ship had started its maneuver in the surface zone using the standard rules for overlapping ships." Otherwise, the full write up looks good.

Regarding the drift adding an agility to the Rebel fighters, keep in mind that the TIEs will most likely have offensive upgrades, making their 2-die attacks stronger. Do the turbos get the single focus flip as part of this update? TIEs are really good at S-Turning down the trench if the Rebels are running slow. It takes a little skill, but it can be done. Also, there is nothing to stop the TIEs from drifting as well. I say play test with the agility, and as you mention it could be adjusted if needed.

Which brings me to another question - in your revised drift maneuver, it is possible to execute the maneuver and finish with no forward progress (execute a 1 forward, followed by drift procedure) - was this intentional? In the 2012 writeup of the drift, I interpreted it to preclude the execution of a 1 drift, as there was no 0 template to use for the movement. This avoided the possibility that the Rebel ships would become stationary and force the Imps to fly past them... You may want to prohibit drift maneuvers following a 1 straight...

Have you considered redesigning the map? It strikes me as an easier way of handling the overlap problem and it might be a way of making the scenario more space friendly too.

For example, you could have the surface zone be a 3x3 standard mat (the Death Star mat for example, although a few power nodes and turbolasers would be satellites if you used that). The Rebels set up on one side, the Imperials on the other, and the Trench Entry is in the Imperial setup zone.

It does make the Trench much shorter (it takes longer to reach it through the surface zone however) so it might be worth having a speed penalty of 1 to a minimum of 1 to all maneuvers in the Trench Zone if the runs become too fast. That also stops the Rebels doing 1-speed moves to force the Imperials to overtake them.

Ships that fly off the map through trench entry are removed from play. Ships removed in that way set up at the start of the next round at the bottom of the trench. Imperials set up first, followed by Rebels (so if both factions enter the trench at the same time the Imperials end up behind).

Ships that execute maneuvers that aren't banks or straights in the trench or who fly out of the trench are removed from play in the same way and set up at the start of the next round in their setup areas

An example of what I'm talking about. In this example the Trench Entry is in the Imperial setup area, which makes it very easy for the Empire to get their fighters into the trench and back into the trench as Vader somehow does in the film. The shorter length of the Trench compensates for this: there'll be more runs but they'll be more lethal.

I like this idea with one possible change. Rather than relocating ships that enter the trench onto the side area, simply consider the trench's entry area (the smaller yellow square in your graphic) as the only trench entry area. Rebels need to fly into this corner to start their run. Not a bad idea...

Drifting: Even with a 1-straight, you end up moving forward from where you started (1 ship base length).

Ah yes, thanks for the graphic... (embarrased sigh...)

So it still leaves open that the Rebels can force most of the Imps to fly past them...

Engine Upgrade is banned. A few variant squad building rules are provided, including a copy of Biff's squads if that's okay. I can just link to Biff's mission PDF instead if that's preferable.

What are your thoughts on SLAM? Should it also be banned?

Personally, I would only ever play the scenario with "historical" forces (but that's the historical wargamer in me rather than the competitive X-wing tournament player who gets off on min/maxing my builds to get the most efficiency from my squad lists). However, if you want to open it up to... whatever... just to see what would happen, then why limit it? It's a "What if?"

If you are trying to limit the ability of Rebel ships from just speeding down the trench by using Boost, then how abou this?

A. Move the Imperial start point closer or move the Rebel start point further,

OR

B. Create some incentive for the Rebels to NOT just speed down the trench. What if there was a penalty for such High speed (ex. +1 target agility if firer moves faster than speed 3)?

OR

C. Allow ships to take Engine Upgrade but not USE Boost in the trench. Justification - in the movie, the trench was not just smooth sides, it had gun towers and other obstructions that need to be avoided by minor course/altitude adjustments, etc... That and the need to do some sort of evasive action to keep from being blasted by the turrets as it should have been pretty simple to hit even a small fighter if you know exactly where it will come from and it is heading straight at you.

C. Allow ships to take Engine Upgrade but not USE Boost in the trench. Justification - in the movie, the trench was not just smooth sides, it had gun towers and other obstructions that need to be avoided by minor course/altitude adjustments, etc... That and the need to do some sort of evasive action to keep from being blasted by the turrets as it should have been pretty simple to hit even a small fighter if you know exactly where it will come from and it is heading straight at you.

That still lets you boost to the trench. That being said, I believe DagobahDave's current update prevents forward repositions (Boost and SLAM) inside the trench rather than banning them outright.

I still just like banning them, but that's me.

Update, with the latest changes in green:

http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-V3.pdf

Notes:

Countdown has been returned to the original 6 full rounds, but it still isn't enough time for the Rebels to win unless they blow up at least one power node.

The map is the big change, running with Blue Fire's idea for moving the trench way over toward the Rebel side. The Rebels can get into the trench on round 1, while the Imperials will be about 1 round behind them and gaining.

I'm not sold on giving +1 agility for drifting, because it makes 3-agility ships too difficult to hit. The Protectorate Starfighter, which is the only small ship in the game with both a torpedo slot and a 5-straight on its dial, can move as fast as any other ship flat-out, but would roll 4 defense dice (not including screens or range) against ships, and 8 defense dice against turrets.

So I'm leaving drift the way it was, where it basically adds evade to a trench-runner's action options for the round. I think a single evade token makes sense thematically because there really isn't that much room to move within the trench, and you can't look forward at turbolasers and backward at enemy ships at the same time. Without any use for boost and almost no use for barrel roll, that leaves just focus and target lock for a lot of ships, so a third option adds just that much more tactical depth.

All turbos fire at PS 10, because having the trench turbos fire at the end of combat wasn't really doing anything great for us.

You can now get more than 3 Rebel ships in the trench at one time, but once 3 ships are in, new ships can't enter if there are any Rebel ships within Range 3 of the entry cutoff line.

Update, with the latest changes in green:

http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-V3.pdf

Notes:

Countdown has been returned to the original 6 full rounds, but it still isn't enough time for the Rebels to win unless they blow up at least one power node.

The map is the big change, running with Blue Fire's idea for moving the trench way over toward the Rebel side. The Rebels can get into the trench on round 1, while the Imperials will be about 1 round behind them and gaining.

I'm not sold on giving +1 agility for drifting, because it makes 3-agility ships too difficult to hit. The Protectorate Starfighter, which is the only small ship in the game with both a torpedo slot and a 5-straight on its dial, can move as fast as any other ship flat-out, but would roll 4 defense dice (not including screens or range) against ships, and 8 defense dice against turrets.

So I'm leaving drift the way it was, where it basically adds evade to a trench-runner's action options for the round. I think a single evade token makes sense thematically because there really isn't that much room to move within the trench, and you can't look forward at turbolasers and backward at enemy ships at the same time. Without any use for boost and almost no use for barrel roll, that leaves just focus and target lock for a lot of ships, so a third option adds just that much more tactical depth.

All turbos fire at PS 10, because having the trench turbos fire at the end of combat wasn't really doing anything great for us.

You can now get more than 3 Rebel ships in the trench at one time, but once 3 ships are in, new ships can't enter if there are any Rebel ships within Range 3 of the entry cutoff line.

Sounds like a good starting point. I will take a look at the updated version and provide any thoughts/comments. I will try and give this a go soon.

Dave,

A few editorial comments/suggestions:

1. I can't find an Agility assignment for the turbolasers or power nodes. I can't find it in previous versions. Is the Agility 0?

2. The Trench Turbolaser section still discusses how these turbos will fire at the end of the combat phase. Please eliminate that reference.

3. The Ionized Structures section indicates that ionized turbolasers and power nodes are completely deactivated. To avoid any confusion or ambiguity, suggest pointedly stating that "While ionized, turbolasers may not attack and power nodes do not generate energy."

4. When you finish developing the Stats Summary section, consider adding a small table that summarizes the energy credits (per node) & expenditures (surface attacks, trench attacks, reinforcements, ion token removal) and reminds players that any remaining energy is discarded during the End Phase. This might be handy the first few times someone plays, before it becomes committed to memory.

Alrighty, we're updated again and I think we're getting close to something playable again.

http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-V3.pdf

I think the only significant change from the last version (the one that was so colorful) is that large ships are now allowed in the more freeform squadbuilding formats.

Would appreciate some proofreading and troubleshooting. I don't want to redesign the trench sheets until I'm pretty sure we're happy with the setup.

Give me a few days to read through and lay out the play area by following the setup instructions. Thanks!

I'd like to give it a shot but it may take a while for me to get to it; I've got a few projects on the table that are demanding attention