Hey gang, I'm just discovering this thread and have a lot to catch up on. I did listen to the Shuttle Tydirium podcast talking about this scenario, and I'm glad that folks are still interested in playing it and have so many great ideas for improving it.

An update is needed, so let's do that. But first, I'm going to try to read through this thread and steal your ideas.

Hi Dave! So glad you found this! Glad you listened to the episode, as well. Hope you liked it. I had fun making it and I love this scenario. It's just really cool and thematic.

If you do update, it, I do like the 3x6 size. I also like the turrets firing first, but I would probably just put them at PS 10. I'm using turrets in another mission I'm making and had them firing at PS 0 and I don't like it. I like them firing first. I'd also ban Engine Upgrade. I also like the order of battle list. I like having that many ships on the table.

Hey gang, I'm just discovering this thread and have a lot to catch up on. I did listen to the Shuttle Tydirium podcast talking about this scenario, and I'm glad that folks are still interested in playing it and have so many great ideas for improving it.

An update is needed, so let's do that. But first, I'm going to try to read through this thread and steal your ideas.

Hi Dave! So glad you found this! Glad you listened to the episode, as well. Hope you liked it. I had fun making it and I love this scenario. It's just really cool and thematic.

If you do update, it, I do like the 3x6 size. I also like the turrets firing first, but I would probably just put them at PS 10. I'm using turrets in another mission I'm making and had them firing at PS 0 and I don't like it. I like them firing first. I'd also ban Engine Upgrade. I also like the order of battle list. I like having that many ships on the table.

There was a debate in our gaming group about having all Turbos at PS 10, or at least all of them always firing first (if you were playing without a specific order of battle and could upgrade PS values). I very much liked the idea of having one (or two) Rebel fighters that had the ability to fire at the surface turbos before they can shoot. In my order of battle, Wedge and Han will have a chance to shoot at a surface Turbo first. This presents a tactical decision to both players. The Rebels may choose to use Wedge during the game as an effective turbo killer. His ability to reduce his target's agility by one is very effective on the surface and can be a bonus in the trench. The Imperials tend to focus on Wedge because of this, which can present a way for the Rebels to bleed off fighters to a corner of the board if he sees the Imperials focusing allot of resources on Wedge.

Having Han shoot before surface turbos, although not as strong as Wedge, can be helpful if you need to take out a turbo that is threatening a valuable Rebel fighter resource. Han might just take out a surface turbo threatening a fighter making a pass at a node or one that is trying to position itself for a run into the trench.

I like it.

The link to the original rules does not seem to be working for me on my phone. Does it work for everyone else or should I try it on my computer?

You can find both of DD's scenarios here:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/136971/dagobah-daves-trench-run-scenarios

The 0.82 variant of DD's 2012 version is here:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/120061/death-star-trench-run-v082

Hello All,

Enjoying this thread. Thanks to Biff for making me aware of it.

I tried and loved Dagobah Dave's original scenario back in 2012. I was very pleased to discover Biff's revision and thematic list of ships. The change to a 3 x 6 play size is good given this is one of the standard sizes.

I have a very nicely done magnetic warmat from "warmats.com" in this size. I had to tweak Biff's version slightly to match the turret models I had bought from NRM miniatures. I have three super large turbolasers which I ruled to be like the "single turbolasers" from huge ships (IE Range 3-5, 4 dice but defender doubles agility, change 1 focus to hit".

Otherwise, I used Biff's version at GenCon 2016 and was very pleased with the results. If I can eventually figure out how to post a photo I show you all my setup.

I can live with the number of ships restrictions in the trench, and the slight silliness of the countdown clock because of the added gameplay tension. I agree that I'd like a more thematic way of resolving the exhaust port - don't like it having shields either.

Very minor things - I'd like to give Wedge slightly more longevity and am thinking about adding R5-P9. I realized Biff tried to use astromechs following canon, but as far as I can tell Wedge's droid fromYavin isn't in the game yet.

Also tempted to give all X-wings integrated astromech to balance my large turbolasers.

I had the pleasure of meeting Biff at GenCon, and would be delighted to meet you DagobahDave if you attend sometime.

Babaganoosh: It might work, yeah. Might be hard to justify that being Imperial-only, though.

I concur. But I think it gets one closer to a more thematic experience along the lines you were proposing. A more organic limit on trench occupancy and a less attack strength style of assualt on the port. Do you agree? Just looking to confirm that I understand your approach / preferences...

I think that if you made the effect apply to both sides, but organically affect imperials worse, it would be great (but that might be hard to do). I'm thinking of a few different ways to form a collision rule:

1- collisions cause you to suffer a critical damage: This hurts imperials worse than rebels since they don't have any shields to absorb such damage

2- collisions cause you to suffer damage equal to your agility value (3 for imperials, 2/1 for rebels).

I have to admit that I like the 3 ships limit in the trench, even if it is artificial. I feel that it would just become a cluster, even if there are penalties for it.

I have to admit that I like the 3 ships limit in the trench, even if it is artificial. I feel that it would just become a cluster, even if there are penalties for it.

I'm not considering changing it. It's too efficient at preventing logjams, encouraging squads to split up to create a battle on two fronts, and producing three-ship strike groups that remind us of the ones in the movie.

I have to admit that I like the 3 ships limit in the trench, even if it is artificial. I feel that it would just become a cluster, even if there are penalties for it.

I have to agree as well. So far, I am unable to arrive at an organic ruleset that would limit the number of ships in the trench without becoming an effective "weapon" (e.g., collisions cause damage, collisions result in ejection from trench) that one side would use to an advantage.

I ran a test of this scenario today with my 'Full Throttle' list of X-wings (luke, wedge, biggs) with predator and engine upgrade, escorted by 2 Y-wings with ICTs and facing off against Vader and 6 TIEs, and had a very convincing Rebel victory. All three X-wings made it to the exhaust port and were able to launch torpedoes, handily winning.

The X-wings had a very easy turn 2 entry into the trench with these maneuvers: [4-straight + boost], [3-Turn, enter]

On the other hand the Imperials made it into the trench on turn 4, far too late to intervene.

I played around on vassal after the mission was done and the earliest imperial trench entry i could manage was turn 3, using engine upgrades. But the Imperials had a much harder time lining up their entry because of their deployment zone. It took a lot of time to set up the turn-3 entry approach; I'd say my chances of correctly pulling this off on the tabletop without more practice are about 1 in 5.

If the Imperials make it into the trench on turn three, they can get decent shots on the Rebels.

If the Y-wings were trying to interfere with imperial trench entry, the game could be very difficult for the imperials even if they planned and executed their maneuvers perfectly.

The Trench and surface turrets managed to do some damage, but mostly succumbed to X-wing fire before they could shoot.

So in terms of balance, I'd either prohibit the Engine Upgrade modification in some way (possibly by mandating integrated astromechs on all X-wings and guidance chips on all Y-wings), or adjust the deployment zones, or alter the entry zone or entry rules.

I'd also add a layer or two, so that the Rebels can't immediately start their attack run. With a 6x3 table you can put more ships on the board and also more objectives.

The scenario mechanics and layout seem pretty solid, although I would probably tighten up the 'drift' maneuver. I'm not exactly sure what happens if you program a 1-speed maneuver and drift. I'd go in there and tighten the language a bit.

As of now, I'd say the scenario has a mild case of Suicide Run Syndrome, and has a balance issue with engine upgrade. Could use a tweak, but the bones of the scenario are good.

I have the same experience with Engine upgrades .. the scenario is pointless if the X-vings have them as the rebels will just blast through the trenches.. I have played the scenario 3 times and the rebels won the two of them without EU (one easy victory, one on the brink and one defeat 2/3s down the trench - Trench laser hitting everything) .. The scenario is very well balanced but I have modded it so that the starting Imperial wave starts 2 range bands closer than the original + i have omitted a range 3 wide zone from the rebel set-up closest to the trench entry border. This is so that the sides will clash before the rebels can enter the trench. I have also banned bombs on the Y-wings as well as 360 degree Ion turrets (non BTL) on more than 1 of the Y-wings as they can be very effective in the trenches to stop trailing TIEs.

Hey gang, I'm just discovering this thread and have a lot to catch up on. I did listen to the Shuttle Tydirium podcast talking about this scenario, and I'm glad that folks are still interested in playing it and have so many great ideas for improving it.

A little history: I wrote v1 of this scenario really soon after the game was initially released. This was before there was a competitive scene, and before the 3x3 / 3x6 foot playing areas become the normal way to play. So it was designed to work well with the dimensions of my kitchen table, which were about 42" x 54". I playtested that version a couple of times, considered it good enough for a game that was still pretty obscure at the time, and put it up on my site.

The v2 version that you're probably familiar with was altered to fit a 3x6 playing area sometime in 2014 and was never playtested by me. I'm a horrible person. So I'm surprised that it has worked as well as it has.

An update is needed, so let's do that. But first, I'm going to try to read through this thread and steal your ideas.

Welcome to the thread Dave. It is an honor and pleasure. Yes, please get caught up on thread and the changes I made to the original 2012 version (48"x50"). You will find a link in a previous response to my v0.82 posted on BGG (I think you are familiar with it - you graciously gave me a thumbs up).

If there is a desire to update the 2014 (36"x72") version, I would suggest using my v0.82 rule set with the longer 2014 trench pieces plus the following mods:

1. Offset the trench a little to ensure the Imperials and Rebels meet over the trench on the same turn. The delayed start for the Imperials in the 2012 version and the offset trench, helped to achieve this merge.

2. With the additional map area, considering adding 1or 2 more turbolasers to the 6 extra in v0.82. I don't think a 5th power node is warranted, but would be open to it given some play testing.

3. Extend the Imperial start zone the length of the play map, just like in v0.82.

I need to revise my suggested modifications based on some fiddling I did with the 36"x72" map. Since the Imperials and Rebels can make it to the trench in two turns each (flying straight ahead, max white maneuver), there is no need to offset the trench nor delay the Imperials deployment/play. So, here goes:

If there is a desire to update the 2014 (36"x72") version, I would suggest using my v0.82 rule set (now with the v0.9 exhaust port attack changes - see prior post - which will soon be posted to BGG) with the longer 2014 trench pieces plus the following mods:

1. Have Imperial player setup Imp ships after the Rebels have placed theirs. Imperials will play in the first turn.

2. With the additional map area, consider adding 1or 2 more surface turbolasers to the 6 extra called for in v0.82. I don't think a 5th power node is warranted, but would be open to it given some play testing.

3. Extend the Imperial start zone the length of the play map, just like in v0.82.

I like these changes. Giving the Imperial player energy budgeting decisions to make is a great addition to the scenario. I think it could really present the imperial player with interesting tactical decisions to make, which is always good. I'd still say that it's thematically difficult to justify the need to spend energy to call for extra ships, but my thematic bar is probably unreasonably high. Hopefully the energy economy gives the Rebels enough motivation to not overpopulate the trench - I suggest strongly encouraging the Rebels to target the power nodes in the mission briefing, so that they don't make what you know as the game designer is a very bad choice by flying everything into the trench.

As to the handling of reinforcements, it can definitely be tricky. There is a fine balance between having too few or too many Imperial ships on the table to start the game, and that's compounded by the added complexity of arriving reinforcements. The right balance can only really be found with repeated testing. I've mostly been employing a trickle-in reinforcement model in the scenarios I've been working on. A constant trickle of reinforcements works well to pressure the other side to work fast to complete their objectives, and/or attack enemy ships before they grow too numerous to engage directly. That said, I really like your idea to make reinforcements cost something to call in, and I'm very interested to see how it works.

First off, I'm just happy that this thread has been going on for a bit and has many excellent points. I love this mission and think it's part of what really drew me into X-wing. I've also used it to sucker other people into the game, too.

Second, I am glad that Biff was able to add awesome experience on his variants that he ran for years at GenCon. Your input is awesome.

Thirdly, I think it's great that the famous Dagobah Dave joined the thread and is actually revamping the scenario! So glad to have you on board.

Babaganoosh, you are my co-pilot, so thanks to you is always out there.

I really like the rules changes! I think they are great. There are just a couple of notes:

• I see Drift is now an action. It doesn't give you the +1 Agility, though. Was that a mistake or a change?
• You might want to think about having Critical Hits do 2 damage to the different parts of the Death Star (turrets and nodes).

That's it! I think the scenario is awesome. I really want to try it again. I'm excited that this thread helped revamp the actual mission. So cool!

Dave - I'll send you my Order of Battle list via BoardGameGeek private message.

I'm still reading through your update, will have questions/comments in a bit. Your 4 squad building options are nice!

Biff

Almost forgot!

If anyone in this thread would like their name to appear in the credits but doesn't want to post their name here for whatever reason, feel free to befriend Dagobah Dave on Facebook or send a message to me there.

I can also be reached by email:
luminousbeings at gmail dot com

I don't have a private message control panel here on the FFG forums (I think my account is too old or something), so the only way to contact me privately is through an outside channel. Sorry about that.

I'm liking this Dave - your approach on Squad Building can appeal to just about any style and clearly attempts to address any future changes that might become the next big thing to disrupt the balance of the scenario. I think you need only worry when the Trade Federation becomes the 4th faction.

The drift action is now more aggressive (lateral movement is increased with no loss of forward movement). I liked the trade-off of forward progress to increased defense. In some cases, the use of drift also resulted in increased separation between screened ship and the ship performing the screen. As the separation increased, it was usually harder for the "screeners" to be effective. I also have a small worry about it being an action. With it being an action, the Rebels need to trade between target lock (especially near the end of their run) and focus. Certainly makes for a more challenging run.

You have the turbolasers listed as PS 10, Attack 4 and Hull 12. Is the Hull correct at 12? Seems like allot... Have you given any thought to including an allocate energy step in the round, essentially treating the Death Star as an Epic. After all small & large ships have moved, the Death Star would gain energy, then allocate it to the turbos it wants to fire (choosing which shots to take in advance of rolling dice). Will there be an energy limit for the Turbos? Maybe this idea is simply allot of work for little value...

Just to clarify, only surface turbos require energy to fire, correct? Trench turbos do not require energy to fire. This seems right given the upper limit of 8 energy per turn and the total number of turbos.

I'm concerned about the countdown clock - something feels off and I can't quite put my finger on it. I think this is something play testing will need to flush out... Timer starts at 6 on Round 1. The Trench entry area has been pushed back quite a bit (which is cool), making a longer minimum run that might not be possible to make with either X or Y wings without adding time to the clock (which is desirable design mechanic) forcing the Rebels to attack power nodes to add time to the clock. Later in the game, when a 2nd run is made/required to win, it may not be possible to add enough time on the clock to make a full run because there are not enough forces to make attacks in both zones simultaneously. Adding time via Imperial fighter destruction at least made this possible. Sure, the Imps could always vacate the trench if the clock and Rebel's position were favorable... I guess I just think the likelihood of ending the game early has increased. I'm liking the concept, however and look forward to seeing how the playtesting goes.

When using my order of battle, suggest denoting the Falcon as the Rebel reinforcement, just like you do in the Fateful Showdown.

Here's my work in progress:

http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-v3.pdf

Quick rundown on the important changes:

Countdown is 1 round shorter to start out with. The only way to extend it is to destroy power nodes (and I think it's practically impossible for the Rebels to win otherwise).

Power nodes provide 2 energy tokens each, which are needed to fire turbolasers and place reinforcements. Destroying power nodes always adds time to the countdown. The power nodes might be so important now that we don't need a 3-ship limit in the trench, because any player that doesn't devote a large part of their squad to destroying the power nodes will probably run out of time charging down the trench with a caravan.

Turbolasers have PS 10, require 1 energy to fire, and work pretty much like Single Turbolaser upgrades. Trench turbos fire individually instead of all-or-nothing. Turbolasers are much harder to kill than before.

Engine Upgrade is banned. A few variant squad building rules are provided, including a copy of Biff's squads if that's okay. I can just link to Biff's mission PDF instead if that's preferable.

Imperial reinforcements require 2 energy, giving the Imperial player some tough budgeting choices since turbos fire so early and reinforcements are placed so late. Currently, the ability to place reinforcements still relies on Imperial ships being destroyed, but I kind of like the idea of allowing the Imperials a more complex reinforcement capability, and starting them off with fewer ships on the table initially. Will think on that some more.

The rules governing zones have been streamlined. Screening in the trench is a great rule, stealing that. Drift is now an action instead of a maneuver.

The trench is offset, being closer to the Rebel starting edge, and the trench zone entry cutoff line is pushed back quite a ways.

The exhaust port doesn't have shields. It always rolls 4 defense dice (not Agility, so no Wedge shenanigans -- that's a good catch). If the attack hits, the Rebels win.

Playtesting is needed to see how all of these changes interact, but let me know what you think.

I'm going to draw a lot of flak here for saying this but...

I really don't like most of these changes. I have played Dave's scenario probably about eight times since it was first published and each and every game was a close run affair. Yes, I will admit that years of additional ship upgrades have left the original scenario in need of updating but I'm not really liking what I'm seeing so far. Maybe it is that I just don't understand just what these changes are trying to fix? Maybe it is a difference in my own game design philosophy. And I want to come right out and admit that I do not have any specific suggestions to offer. What I can say is that I liked the original because it was thematic and dramatic, thanks to the special rules... it was also simple and user friendly. The suggestions I have read here that leave me cold are...

1. Reduced time on countdown clock - not really a criticism, just not sure how this is "better". Every one of my games ended with a decision at the last possible moment... in other words, the time limit (and methods for getting more time) were just right for maximum dramatic effect.

2. The inclusion of Energy tokens - more clutter... more to keep track of... etc... The argument that it gives the Imperial player something to think about just does not really impress me as that valid an argument or a "bonus".. just more work, IMO.

3. Trench Turbolasers - I liked the "all or nothing" (on/off) option of the original version. It was a) very thematic and b) presented the Imperial player with a tactical decision to make (which you seemed to like in your suggested change above.

4. Reinforcements - don't like idea of "energy for ships" as I have seen suggested. Much preferred simplicity of generic reinforcements for destroyed Imperial ships. Saw no problems that needed to be fixed there. The important thing here is in initial Imperial force selection.

5. Engine Upgrade ban - not sure the motivation. Could be valid reason, I just never had a problem with it in this scenario... Also, a decent upgrade for Vader.

6. "Wedge shenanigans" - I don't know what you are referring to. Never noticed a problem with Wedge in this scenario.

I really feel rather hypocritical, criticizing the suggestions others have made, while I offer nothing beyond urging the K.I.S.S. principle when designing games/scenarios. I love the original so much and want to preserve the things it did right, while updating it to the standards of the game as it is today. I have confidence we'll get there.

I can at least speak to the engine upgrade ban- in all of my testing when I was analyzing the original scenario, I found that it was relatively easy for the Rebel player to send three X-wings with offensive abilities (Wedge) and upgrades such (Predator) directly into the trench, flying full speed + boost toward the exhaust port, blasting turrets along the way and staying well ahead of pursuing TIEs, which could not enter the trench as quickly or as easily, even when they also had engine upgrades. Those three X-wings would typically be able to torpedo the exhaust port 2-3 times, and with their offensive abilities and upgrades were able to take it out without much fuss. Have you played with that type of approach?

1. Reduced time on countdown clock - not really a criticism, just not sure how this is "better". Every one of my games ended with a decision at the last possible moment... in other words, the time limit (and methods for getting more time) were just right for maximum dramatic effect.

2. The inclusion of Energy tokens - more clutter... more to keep track of... etc... The argument that it gives the Imperial player something to think about just does not really impress me as that valid an argument or a "bonus".. just more work, IMO.

3. Trench Turbolasers - I liked the "all or nothing" (on/off) option of the original version. It was a) very thematic and b) presented the Imperial player with a tactical decision to make (which you seemed to like in your suggested change above.

4. Reinforcements - don't like idea of "energy for ships" as I have seen suggested. Much preferred simplicity of generic reinforcements for destroyed Imperial ships. Saw no problems that needed to be fixed there. The important thing here is in initial Imperial force selection.

5. Engine Upgrade ban - not sure the motivation. Could be valid reason, I just never had a problem with it in this scenario... Also, a decent upgrade for Vader.

6. "Wedge shenanigans" - I don't know what you are referring to. Never noticed a problem with Wedge in this scenario.

Engine Upgrade is banned. A few variant squad building rules are provided, including a copy of Biff's squads if that's okay. I can just link to Biff's mission PDF instead if that's preferable.

What are your thoughts on SLAM? Should it also be banned?

I think the various changes to the count down clock, power nodes, energy, turrets, etc is to create a reason to go after the power nodes. Before, you didn't really need a reason to go after the power nodes. Now, though, the Rebels get distinct bonuses for blowing up the power nodes. It gives something for the ships not going into the trenches to do instead of just hovering near the drop down entrance.

Engine Upgrade is banned. A few variant squad building rules are provided, including a copy of Biff's squads if that's okay. I can just link to Biff's mission PDF instead if that's preferable.

What are your thoughts on SLAM? Should it also be banned?

I would say yes.

Why would you need to ban SLAM? No legal ship can take it. Well, except for Burnout SLAM on the Falcon but that can't fire torpedoes.