One more humorous statement about adding time to the countdown timer:
In the movie, there are at least two time checks as the Death Star nears its firing position. I measured the actual passage of time:
From "Rebel base one minute and closing." to "Rebel base 30 seconds and closing." took 104 seconds.
From "Rebel base 30 seconds and closing." to "The Death Star has cleared the planet." took 65 seconds.
Where did all that extra time come from????
Babaganoosh: "It may well be that the rest of the Rebels were trying to 'distract' the imperials in the movie... So what would be stopping the imperials from chasing down the last three rebel ships in the trench with all of their remaining forces, if that situation happened in a game? Only this arbitrary rule, I'm afraid. It still doesn't make sense."
You are right, nothing would stop the remaining ships from chasing down the remaining Rebel ships. Assuming such overwhelming force would have been effective - it wouldn't have made for such a great movie.
Plot armor!
One more humorous statement about adding time to the countdown timer:
In the movie, there are at least two time checks as the Death Star nears its firing position. I measured the actual passage of time:
From "Rebel base one minute and closing." to "Rebel base 30 seconds and closing." took 104 seconds.
From "Rebel base 30 seconds and closing." to "The Death Star has cleared the planet." took 65 seconds.
Where did all that extra time come from????
As a veteran, this makes all the sense in the world. Nothing happens on time. Not in the army anyway
Edited by BabaganooshThe trench traffic jam problem is super-real and important; I'm sure it was one of the driving reasons behind the capacity rule, and I still don't have a solution for it. That said, It still offends my sense of thematics. Probably my defining characteristic in terms of scenario design is that I try to accurately re-create the star wars universe while not sacrificing balance or gameplay. It's a tough standard to live by.
Ideally, there would be an approach that does not prohibit players explicitly from crowding into the trench, but punishes them for doing so; organically creating a gamestate where the trench doesn't become a pileup.
A few ways one could try to accomplish that:
Create other targets on the map that must be targeted by the rebels if they want a decent chance at making a successful trench run, much like the power nodes in the original version, only they aren't just a consolation prize for ships that can't get into the trench; they are important targets that the Rebels will want to devote ships to attacking instead of sending those ships into the trench.
Limit how many ships can attack the exhaust port (what you did with eligibility, but limited to, say one ship at a time) - this only works with the rebels, though.
Punish ships harshly for collisions. Deal face-down damage cards, or critical damage, or whatever... it might be best to make this more punishing for Imperials, especially if you are including other measures to divide the rebel fleet organically.
I think those are worth exploring; did you ever consider things like that as a solution to trench traffic jams?
Dave,
I have played this scenario many times, in all your published versions. Each and every time, it came down to the last available ship taking the shot at the last possible moment, to decide the game. Pure fun and excitement! What XWM, (IMO) was meant to be. I and everyone whom I have ever played the scenario with concurred, that this is probably the most balanced... most cinematic... most exciting scenario thus far written for XWM. I would say it is nearly perfect as is. Yes, it is a compromise in very many ways (countdown clock, power nodes, reinforcements, trench occupancy limits, etc...) but, as a game (and as a recreation of the events in ANH) it works. There really is no need, IMO, to change a thing. The countdown clock and the race against time is what makes it exciting and does an adequate job of recreating the suspense of the original trench run scene.
The only change I would make... and it is really just an addition... would be to provide an *OPTIONAL* historical force list/order of battle. Yes, you can play it with "ahistorical" forces as a "what if" but I found it much more fun to try to reproduce the movie as much as possible (ex. only allow BTL-A4 Y-Wings or no turrets as they were not evident in ANH and really change the nature of the scenario if included.).
Ordinarily, I would say that there is always something that can be tweaked to improve a scenario... but NOT this time.
*... except to invite me over for a game...*
Edited by BiffThe trench traffic jam problem is super-real and important; I'm sure it was one of the driving reasons behind the capacity rule, and I still don't have a solution for it. That said, It still offends my sense of thematics. Probably my defining characteristic in terms of scenario design is that I try to accurately re-create the star wars universe while not sacrificing balance or gameplay. It's a tough standard to live by.
Ideally, there would be an approach that does not prohibit players explicitly from crowding into the trench, but punishes them for doing so; organically creating a gamestate where the trench doesn't become a pileup.
I would offer up that screening offers a fair amount of organic balancing to limit the number of ships in the trench. The more ships, the less likely your attacks will be effective. Combine this with a punishment for collision and you may have something....
A few ways one could try to accomplish that:
Create other targets on the map that must be targeted by the rebels if they want a decent chance at making a successful trench run, much like the power nodes in the original version, only they aren't just a consolation prize for ships that can't get into the trench; they are important targets that the Rebels will want to devote ships to attacking instead of sending those ships into the trench.
Good idea, would suggest caution when implementing. If the Rebels are forced to devote ships to these additional targets in order to be successful at destroying the Death Star, some of their options become limited. Furthermore, you are adding yet another element that the Imperials know will need to be attacked (in addition to the port itself). This may allow the Imperial to establish a trap or other obstacle for the Rebels since they know the attack is coming. With the current scenario, the Rebels do not have to attack the nodes. They certainly need to attack the port and will usually find themselves fighting the TIEs (adding time to the clock as a result). Although uncommon, we have had Rebel victories without a single node destroyed.
Limit how many ships can attack the exhaust port (what you did with eligibility, but limited to, say one ship at a time) - this only works with the rebels, though.
We initially limited the number of Rebel ships with torpedoes. That didn't work well as the Imps singled those ships out early in the game and left the Rebels without any way to attack the port. We then went with the Rebels denoting which ships had torpedoes in secret. This was better as these craft could not be singled out. We abandoned this idea when we went with the pre-planned order of battle. If you did limit the number of ships that can attack the port, try to do so in a secretive way. You don't want the Imps to be able to effectively single out those ships (even with defensive screening). I realize committing the target lock effectively advertises intentions, as such, nearly all Rebels will commit initially, but will sometime change along the way based on the situation and the needs of other ships in the trench. That early flexibility has proven to be beneficial in the past - a trench turbo gets really lucky, a stupid moves sends one of the rebels into the trench wall, etc.
Punish ships harshly for collisions. Deal face-down damage cards, or critical damage, or whatever... it might be best to make this more punishing for Imperials, especially if you are including other measures to divide the rebel fleet organically.
We really kicked this idea around a bunch. The hard part of some kind of penalty for collision is having it be fair for all situations. We were very hard pressed to find a way that did not provide a benefit to the Imperial player. If only the ship that is moving when the collision occurs is penalized, the Imps let Rebels fly into them (the traffic jam scenario). If only the recipient of the collision is penalized, the Imps fly into everything from behind all the way down the trench. If both take damage, the Imps still fly into everything as they will receive a replacement. If only the Imps are penalized, do you only count the collisions they are responsible for (when moving) or when they are not moving and hit by a Rebel? For us, this was really only viable if the Imperials did not receive reinforcements (not as willing to lose ships) and they needed to enter the trench just like the Rebels. Once again, this was a compromise for us - we liked the Imperial entry anywhere and limited capacity more than what was realistic .
I think those are worth exploring; did you ever consider things like that as a solution to trench traffic jams?
One more humorous statement about adding time to the countdown timer:
In the movie, there are at least two time checks as the Death Star nears its firing position. I measured the actual passage of time:
From "Rebel base one minute and closing." to "Rebel base 30 seconds and closing." took 104 seconds.
From "Rebel base 30 seconds and closing." to "The Death Star has cleared the planet." took 65 seconds.
Where did all that extra time come from????
Dramaturgic element, not just restricted to Star Wars. There are some many movies using this, you often encounter e.g. countdowns lasting a lot longer etc. once you start counting self.
Edited by ManagarmrDave,
I have played this scenario many times, in all your published versions. Each and every time, it came down to the last available ship taking the shot at the last possible moment, to decide the game. Pure fun and excitement! What XWM, (IMO) was meant to be. I and everyone whom I have ever played the scenario with concurred, that this is probably the most balanced... most cinematic... most exciting scenario thus far written for XWM. I would say it is nearly perfect as is. Yes, it is a compromise in very many ways (countdown clock, power nodes, reinforcements, trench occupancy limits, etc...) but, as a game (and as a recreation of the events in ANH) it works. There really is no need, IMO, to change a thing. The countdown clock and the race against time is what makes it exciting and does an adequate job of recreating the suspense of the original trench run scene.
The only change I would make... and it is really just an addition... would be to provide an *OPTIONAL* historical force list/order of battle. Yes, you can play it with "ahistorical" forces as a "what if" but I found it much more fun to try to reproduce the movie as much as possible (ex. only allow BTL-A4 Y-Wings or no turrets as they were not evident in ANH and really change the nature of the scenario if included.).
Ordinarily, I would say that there is always something that can be tweaked to improve a scenario... but NOT this time.
*... except to invite me over for a game...*
Hi Chris. My variant does include a historical order of battle (plus additional no - name historical squadron pilots). It includes all the named pilots that are included in the game for both Rebels and Imperials, plus the unique astromechs assigned to the pilots. A couple posts back I provide a hyperlink to the variant as posted on BoardGameGeek. Check it out (assuming you haven't) - my apologies if you did... I even use the BTL-A4 mods for the Ys...
(...)
Ideally, there would be an approach that does not prohibit players explicitly from crowding into the trench, but punishes them for doing so; organically creating a gamestate where the trench doesn't become a pileup.
A few ways one could try to accomplish that:
Create other targets on the map that must be targeted by the rebels if they want a decent chance at making a successful trench run, much like the power nodes in the original version, only they aren't just a consolation prize for ships that can't get into the trench; they are important targets that the Rebels will want to devote ships to attacking instead of sending those ships into the trench. (...)
The power nodes giving either energy to more turrets or giving a lot more dice or mods to the turrets in the trench, making it really difficult to get alive to the port? Once you start eliminate the nodes your ships can survive diving into the trench? (turret power or number of active turrets falling wiht each node destroyed)
Edited by Managarmr
Dave,
I have played this scenario many times, in all your published versions. Each and every time, it came down to the last available ship taking the shot at the last possible moment, to decide the game. Pure fun and excitement! What XWM, (IMO) was meant to be. I and everyone whom I have ever played the scenario with concurred, that this is probably the most balanced... most cinematic... most exciting scenario thus far written for XWM. I would say it is nearly perfect as is. Yes, it is a compromise in very many ways (countdown clock, power nodes, reinforcements, trench occupancy limits, etc...) but, as a game (and as a recreation of the events in ANH) it works. There really is no need, IMO, to change a thing. The countdown clock and the race against time is what makes it exciting and does an adequate job of recreating the suspense of the original trench run scene.
The only change I would make... and it is really just an addition... would be to provide an *OPTIONAL* historical force list/order of battle. Yes, you can play it with "ahistorical" forces as a "what if" but I found it much more fun to try to reproduce the movie as much as possible (ex. only allow BTL-A4 Y-Wings or no turrets as they were not evident in ANH and really change the nature of the scenario if included.).
Ordinarily, I would say that there is always something that can be tweaked to improve a scenario... but NOT this time.
*... except to invite me over for a game...*
Hi Chris. My variant does include a historical order of battle (plus additional no - name historical squadron pilots). It includes all the named pilots that are included in the game for both Rebels and Imperials, plus the unique astromechs assigned to the pilots. A couple posts back I provide a hyperlink to the variant as posted on BoardGameGeek. Check it out (assuming you haven't) - my apologies if you did... I even use the BTL-A4 mods for the Ys...
On top of what Biff points out here, it should also be noted that he and I agree probably agree that the original scenario was in need of an update to reflect changes in upgrade availability. In my own testing I found engine upgraded - X-wings very difficult to challenge as the Imperial player, for example. I would say that the original/the most recent DD version I could find was very good and probably very well balanced for someone who doesn't spend an unreasonable amount of time designing scenarios, but I think I was able to find significant balance cracks on a close examination. I think Biff's version went a long way toward fixing those problems (although I haven't played it yet); I'd encourage you to give his version a shot.
Really, DD's trench run is a classic X-wing TMG scenario at this point. Everyone should try it, or an updated version to get an idea of what a good x-wing scenario can feel like.
(...)
Ideally, there would be an approach that does not prohibit players explicitly from crowding into the trench, but punishes them for doing so; organically creating a gamestate where the trench doesn't become a pileup.
A few ways one could try to accomplish that:
Create other targets on the map that must be targeted by the rebels if they want a decent chance at making a successful trench run, much like the power nodes in the original version, only they aren't just a consolation prize for ships that can't get into the trench; they are important targets that the Rebels will want to devote ships to attacking instead of sending those ships into the trench. (...)
The power nodes giving either energy to more turrets or giving a lot more dice or mods to the turrets in the trench, making it really difficult to get alive to the port? Once you start eliminate the nodes your ships can survive diving into the trench? (turret power or number of active turrets falling wiht each node destroyed)
yeah, either of those ideas sound fine. The basic idea there would be anything that would make the idea of doing the trench run without dealing with those targets a near-suicidal proposition.
The trench traffic jam problem is super-real and important; I'm sure it was one of the driving reasons behind the capacity rule, and I still don't have a solution for it. That said, It still offends my sense of thematics. Probably my defining characteristic in terms of scenario design is that I try to accurately re-create the star wars universe while not sacrificing balance or gameplay. It's a tough standard to live by.
Ideally, there would be an approach that does not prohibit players explicitly from crowding into the trench, but punishes them for doing so; organically creating a gamestate where the trench doesn't become a pileup.
I would offer up that screening offers a fair amount of organic balancing to limit the number of ships in the trench. The more ships, the less likely your attacks will be effective. Combine this with a punishment for collision and you may have something....
Create other targets on the map that must be targeted by the rebels if they want a decent chance at making a successful trench run, much like the power nodes in the original version, only they aren't just a consolation prize for ships that can't get into the trench; they are important targets that the Rebels will want to devote ships to attacking instead of sending those ships into the trench.
Good idea, would suggest caution when implementing. If the Rebels are forced to devote ships to these additional targets in order to be successful at destroying the Death Star, some of their options become limited. Furthermore, you are adding yet another element that the Imperials know will need to be attacked (in addition to the port itself). This may allow the Imperial to establish a trap or other obstacle for the Rebels since they know the attack is coming. With the current scenario, the Rebels do not have to attack the nodes. They certainly need to attack the port and will usually find themselves fighting the TIEs (adding time to the clock as a result). Although uncommon, we have had Rebel victories without a single node destroyed.
Yeah it would be a bit of a tricky thing. Ideally you would create a situation where the Rebels and the Imperials feel like they need to devote ships to those side objectives, and end up spreading things out. Under the original rules I usually ignored the nodes, or waited until I had triggered the Falcon, and then blew one or two to up the clock. Ever had trouble with people gaming the Falcon's arrival like that?
Limit how many ships can attack the exhaust port (what you did with eligibility, but limited to, say one ship at a time) - this only works with the rebels, though.
We initially limited the number of Rebel ships with torpedoes. That didn't work well as the Imps singled those ships out early in the game and left the Rebels without any way to attack the port. We then went with the Rebels denoting which ships had torpedoes in secret. This was better as these craft could not be singled out. We abandoned this idea when we went with the pre-planned order of battle. If you did limit the number of ships that can attack the port, try to do so in a secretive way. You don't want the Imps to be able to effectively single out those ships (even with defensive screening). I realize committing the target lock effectively advertises intentions, as such, nearly all Rebels will commit initially, but will sometime change along the way based on the situation and the needs of other ships in the trench. That early flexibility has proven to be beneficial in the past - a trench turbo gets really lucky, a stupid moves sends one of the rebels into the trench wall, etc.
Any thoughts to giving rebel ships access to a protect action? (assigning another ship an evade token). That would be pretty thematic and would keep a single committed ship alive longer.
Punish ships harshly for collisions. Deal face-down damage cards, or critical damage, or whatever... it might be best to make this more punishing for Imperials, especially if you are including other measures to divide the rebel fleet organically.
We really kicked this idea around a bunch. The hard part of some kind of penalty for collision is having it be fair for all situations. We were very hard pressed to find a way that did not provide a benefit to the Imperial player. If only the ship that is moving when the collision occurs is penalized, the Imps let Rebels fly into them (the traffic jam scenario). If only the recipient of the collision is penalized, the Imps fly into everything from behind all the way down the trench. If both take damage, the Imps still fly into everything as they will receive a replacement. If only the Imps are penalized, do you only count the collisions they are responsible for (when moving) or when they are not moving and hit by a Rebel? For us, this was really only viable if the Imperials did not receive reinforcements (not as willing to lose ships) and they needed to enter the trench just like the Rebels. Once again, this was a compromise for us - we liked the Imperial entry anywhere and limited capacity more than what was realistic .
A collision rule would be super-tricky to implement successfully, agreed. Possibly impossible to implement ( awk ).
Babaganoosh - I don't know how to embed my reply like you guys are doing. As you can tell by my post count, I'm very much a youngling...
yeah, either of those ideas sound fine. The basic idea there would be anything that would make the idea of doing the trench run without dealing with those targets a near-suicidal proposition.
In our variant, the trench is pretty brutal right now. With the focus flip, the trench guns will, on average, destroy about 1.5 rebel fighters by themselves (assuming the Rebels don't shoot back and the Rebels fly green straight maneuvers with no drift). I ran about twenty runs using both Xs and Ys along different paths, rolling attack / defense dice and recording all the results (I have the logs somewhere). Add in the Imp fighters, a little drifting to slow their progress and expose them to more attacks countered by the Rebels shooting back at the trench guns and we arrived at an average first run survival rating of about 1 out of 3 ships making it all the way to the exhaust port. Subsequent runs tend to fair at about the same rate, perhaps a little better. The second and subsequent runs are usually performed with Rebel ships that have some level of damage (vs healthy ships making the first run) so that although there are not as many turbos, the few that remain combined with the Imp fighters are usually just as successful. So after a few plays of the scenario, the Rebels are motivated to send some resources, at some point during the game to eliminate power nodes. Taking a trench gun out of the game (like one right next to the port), can be a very valuable reward for destroying a node.
Yeah it would be a bit of a tricky thing. Ideally you would create a situation where the Rebels and the Imperials feel like they need to devote ships to those side objectives, and end up spreading things out. Under the original rules I usually ignored the nodes, or waited until I had triggered the Falcon, and then blew one or two to up the clock. Ever had trouble with people gaming the Falcon's arrival like that?
We have found that in general it is in the best interest of the Rebel player to spread out their forces anyway. The typical TIE swarm is just as effective in this scenario as in the standard 100v100 game. Don't take this to mean that the Rebels should never deploy forces in close proximity or to merge their fighters at some point in the game - but rather that the Rebel would be foolish to keep his forces clumped in close proximity, allowing the Imps to create a kill box or to focus their fire on a single target. Keep in mind that there are six additional turbo lasers scattered around the play area as well. In early testing, the crossfire these units could bring at Range 1 to a Rebel ship was truly destructive. Ys would be cut to pieces just after having crossed over to the Imp side of the trench. One of the big reasons we dropped the surface guns to Range 2-3.
We have had folks use the Falcon to specifically target a node to put time on the clock. I don't feel like that is gaming the Falcon, however. I think it is a wise use of an available resource to provide the immediate relief for the situation at hand. I've also seen the Falcon used to eliminate 2 TIEs in hot pursuit of the sole remaining rebel ship - ultimately allowing the winning shot to be fired. I've even seen Han's arrival delayed one turn (Falcon becomes available for entry into the game when criteria are met, it is not required to be put into play) to have more of an effect on the battle. All of these situations are what the Falcon was intended for. Allowing the Rebel's to make (what could be) a very critical decision to hopefully achieve a particular result.
Any thoughts to giving rebel ships access to a protect action? (assigning another ship an evade token). That would be pretty thematic and would keep a single committed ship alive longer.
I would need to think about this a little more. My gut reactions - this feels a little like the screening, but is certainly more direct. It opens up situations where there is a round robin assignment of protect actions (not an ideal situation in my opinion). It would be effectively an easier way to conduct screening actions without the coordinated activity of maneuvering ships to accomplish something similar. Providing a protect action, by itself, does not limit the number of ships in the trench. It could, however, be an alternative to committing to attacking the port - which is most likely your intent. I think there is something with this idea, just need to think and/or try it out... I'm liking the idea, just might tip the balance too far to the Rebels. Question from a theme perspective - would you want a leading fighter to grant a protect action to a friendly ship that is behind it? That wouldn't seem right... Might have to be combined with something like the granting ship's forward firing arc...
Edited by BiffI have been thinking about running a trench run game and have a interesting idea for how the attack on the exhaust port would work.
The Rebels may enter the trench at any point and may only move toward the port. Each turn (or maybe distance traveled) as they move down the trench, as long as there is no ship in front of them they add an aim token to their card. When they shoot at the port, they spend their aim tokens to roll that many D6. If they roll at lest one 6 (or maybe two) the shot goes in. Luke may reroll his dice.
The Imperials may only enter the trench behind rebels, may only move towards the port and must exit as soon as they can when there are no Rebels in front of them.
This removes having only one entry point to the trench that gets congested, makes the rebels want to have long runs down the trench and discourages more than one run at a time.
I have been thinking about running a trench run game and have a interesting idea for how the attack on the exhaust port would work.
The Rebels may enter the trench at any point and may only move toward the port. Each turn (or maybe distance traveled) as they move down the trench, as long as there is no ship in front of them they add an aim token to their card. When they shoot at the port, they spend their aim tokens to roll that many D6. If they roll at lest one 6 (or maybe two) the shot goes in. Luke may reroll his dice.
The Imperials may only enter the trench behind rebels, may only move towards the port and must exit as soon as they can when there are no Rebels in front of them.
This removes having only one entry point to the trench that gets congested, makes the rebels want to have long runs down the trench and discourages more than one run at a time.
Interesting idea. Question for you - can you please expand on how this approach discourages more than one attack run at a time? Thanks!
I have been thinking about running a trench run game and have a interesting idea for how the attack on the exhaust port would work.
The Rebels may enter the trench at any point and may only move toward the port. Each turn (or maybe distance traveled) as they move down the trench, as long as there is no ship in front of them they add an aim token to their card. When they shoot at the port, they spend their aim tokens to roll that many D6. If they roll at lest one 6 (or maybe two) the shot goes in. Luke may reroll his dice.
The Imperials may only enter the trench behind rebels, may only move towards the port and must exit as soon as they can when there are no Rebels in front of them.
This removes having only one entry point to the trench that gets congested, makes the rebels want to have long runs down the trench and discourages more than one run at a time.
Interesting idea. Question for you - can you please expand on how this approach discourages more than one attack run at a time? Thanks!
In the second sentence "as long as there is no ship in front of them they add an aim token to their card."
If you are running in behind another group you will not collect aim tokens until they finish their attack and turn off. Depending on how many rolls of 6 you need to hit your chances will be much lower or maybe impossible compared to a clean run.
It should be added that if a ship does drop into the trench in front of you (something Imperials can only do if following a rebel ship) you lose all aim tokens.
Yes...I concede that as the game has changed with new upgrades, etc... So too, should the scenario. I did notice that in my more recent play-throughs. You got me there. Still, I stand by belief that DD's version of Trench Run is about as close to the dramatic suspense and feel of Star Wars as I have ever had playing XWM.
Thanks Dave!
Edited by Chris MaesHey Biff, that's a very impressive table shot! Where did you get or how did you make the trench mat and turrets?
I have been thinking about running a trench run game and have a interesting idea for how the attack on the exhaust port would work.
The Rebels may enter the trench at any point and may only move toward the port. Each turn (or maybe distance traveled) as they move down the trench, as long as there is no ship in front of them they add an aim token to their card. When they shoot at the port, they spend their aim tokens to roll that many D6. If they roll at lest one 6 (or maybe two) the shot goes in. Luke may reroll his dice.
The Imperials may only enter the trench behind rebels, may only move towards the port and must exit as soon as they can when there are no Rebels in front of them.
This removes having only one entry point to the trench that gets congested, makes the rebels want to have long runs down the trench and discourages more than one run at a time.
Interesting idea. Question for you - can you please expand on how this approach discourages more than one attack run at a time? Thanks!
In the second sentence "as long as there is no ship in front of them they add an aim token to their card."
If you are running in behind another group you will not collect aim tokens until they finish their attack and turn off. Depending on how many rolls of 6 you need to hit your chances will be much lower or maybe impossible compared to a clean run.
It should be added that if a ship does drop into the trench in front of you (something Imperials can only do if following a rebel ship) you lose all aim tokens.
Ah - thanks! I guess it was a bit too tired last night when I read through this. Clearly I missed that important aspect. My apologies.
I think the concept has some merit that I would suggest you playtest and tweak accordingly. I have some concerns, but think you could work through them with some adjustments. If the number of "hits (6s)" required is rather low, I would tend to simply line up my forces within the trench, spaced 2-3 turns apart and simply play the odds until I was successful. Certainly, the higher the "required" hits, the more time the Rebel must be in the trench with a clear view of the target. (No chance to destroy the DS if you need two "hits" and are only rolling one die....)
You've got something here - it just needs to be tried out a few times. The concept does drive the Rebels to want to fly through more of the trench to improve their shot - and I like that organic mechanism. It provides some logic as to why the Rebels took that approach. I'm just not liking the ultimate odds of having to roll 4-6 "hits" at the end of the run, with each die having such a low probability of "hitting". At least the attack dice have a 50% chance of coming up with either a crit or hit...
Give this concept a try and report back with your findings!!!
Hey Biff, that's a very impressive table shot! Where did you get or how did you make the trench mat and turrets?
Thank you.
The map board was constructed by a member of the gaming group that playtested all of our changes to DD's 2012 version. He is quite the craftsman. The board is made of three pieces: the two sides of the trench and the trench itself. They are secured together with screws, allowing the board to travel to conventions with ease. The trench on the map is about 1/2" deep - enough to provide the visual, but not so deep as to become a hindrance to gameplay (IMHO). For ships that enter the trench, we made small wooden toppers to the plastic bases that are flush with the surface level. We simply replace the ships model with one of these topper bases and continue to play. The ships stats on these pieces are printed on magnetic material, so we can reuse a small number of toppers to represent any pilot that enters.
The Death Star graphics are stitched together from a Warscapes terrain package I purchased online (~$4) from Skeletonkeygames.com (look in thier PDF store). I stitched together the terrain tiles in a graphics program, then added the color bands for the deployment zones. I found an online store that will print graphics onto fabric for a very reasonable price. I then used a heat activated fabric adhesive to secure the fabric to the wood playing surface.
The amazing scenery is from CombatzoneScenery.com. They have a set specifically designed for DD's trench run scenario that includes the turbos, destroyed turbos, the exhaust port, in-trench markers, firing box marker and a seriously cool countdown timer (a little Death Star that orbits Yavin 4, getting closer to firing position...). Check it out here:
If you don't want the full set, they have component breakouts available.
Babaganoosh - Something to kick around a bit:
In the Singapore version of the trench run, there is a rule about ejection from the trench if ships collide. Could ejection be used as a penalty against the Imps only? Would that be sufficient to avoid the uber traffic jam strategy and open the trench up for entry anywhere?
Add in a port attack mechanism like the one described by All too easy above and you might have something....
Thoughts? I'm going to ponder this a bit myself...
Doesn't actually specify T-65s or TIE/lns.
TFA TRENCH RUN INITIATE
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2. .....The squad must include Darth Vader and all other ships must be TIE Fighters. The Rebel player may spend up to 150 points...Luke...all other ships must be X-wings and/or Y-wings.
Last updated 2014.
I guess if you really want to make break the rules, you could say that any TIE Fighter is anything with TIE in it and X-wing can mean T-70's. It would be totally against recreating the original Star Wars: A New Hope movie, but if you really wanted to try to twist the rules, you can take that way. I'd hate to play it that way, but if you want, why not just change the rules to whatever you want it to be?
I have wondered, though, how the mission would work if you traded it out for all Tie FO's and X-70's instead.
You misunderstood: I said it doesn't specify T-65 X-wing and TIE/ln fighter. I know that it specifies X-wing and TIE fighter.
By the rules, the TIE fighter, TIE/fo fighter and TIE/sf fighter all count as TIE fighters: Youngster can affect all of them and they can all dock to the Gozanti. Similarly, T-70 X-wing counts as an X-wing: both can take Integrated Astromech.
Therefore, by the wording of the Trench Run rules you could take the TFA ships. It's fairly obviously against the intention so I doubt anyone would rules lawyer it in practice but in theory the rules don't prohibit it.
Edited by Blue FiveBabaganoosh - Something to kick around a bit:
In the Singapore version of the trench run, there is a rule about ejection from the trench if ships collide. Could ejection be used as a penalty against the Imps only? Would that be sufficient to avoid the uber traffic jam strategy and open the trench up for entry anywhere?
Add in a port attack mechanism like the one described by All too easy above and you might have something....
Thoughts? I'm going to ponder this a bit myself...
It might work, yeah. Might be hard to justify that being Imperial-only, though.
Hey gang, I'm just discovering this thread and have a lot to catch up on. I did listen to the Shuttle Tydirium podcast talking about this scenario, and I'm glad that folks are still interested in playing it and have so many great ideas for improving it.
A little history: I wrote v1 of this scenario really soon after the game was initially released. This was before there was a competitive scene, and before the 3x3 / 3x6 foot playing areas become the normal way to play. So it was designed to work well with the dimensions of my kitchen table, which were about 42" x 54". I playtested that version a couple of times, considered it good enough for a game that was still pretty obscure at the time, and put it up on my site.
The v2 version that you're probably familiar with was altered to fit a 3x6 playing area sometime in 2014 and
was never playtested by me. I'm a horrible person.
So I'm surprised that it has worked as well as it has.
An update is needed, so let's do that. But first, I'm going to try to read through this thread and steal your ideas.
Hey gang, I'm just discovering this thread and have a lot to catch up on. I did listen to the Shuttle Tydirium podcast talking about this scenario, and I'm glad that folks are still interested in playing it and have so many great ideas for improving it.
A little history: I wrote v1 of this scenario really soon after the game was initially released. This was before there was a competitive scene, and before the 3x3 / 3x6 foot playing areas become the normal way to play. So it was designed to work well with the dimensions of my kitchen table, which were about 42" x 54". I playtested that version a couple of times, considered it good enough for a game that was still pretty obscure at the time, and put it up on my site.
The v2 version that you're probably familiar with was altered to fit a 3x6 playing area sometime in 2014 and was never playtested by me. I'm a horrible person. So I'm surprised that it has worked as well as it has.
An update is needed, so let's do that. But first, I'm going to try to read through this thread and steal your ideas.
If there is a desire to update the 2014 (36"x72") version, I would suggest using my v0.82 rule set with the longer 2014 trench pieces plus the following mods:
1. Offset the trench a little to ensure the Imperials and Rebels meet over the trench on the same turn. The delayed start for the Imperials in the 2012 version and the offset trench, helped to achieve this merge.
2. With the additional map area, considering adding 1or 2 more turbolasers to the 6 extra in v0.82. I don't think a 5th power node is warranted, but would be open to it given some play testing.
3. Extend the Imperial start zone the length of the play map, just like in v0.82.
Edited by BiffBabaganoosh: It might work, yeah. Might be hard to justify that being Imperial-only, though.
I concur. But I think it gets one closer to a more thematic experience along the lines you were proposing. A more organic limit on trench occupancy and a less attack strength style of assualt on the port. Do you agree? Just looking to confirm that I understand your approach / preferences...
Attacking the exhaust port[/size] : [/size]3. [/size]
Why does the exhaust port have shields that you can destroy to make subsequent shots easier, when the whole point of this attack was that the port was not shielded against a proton torpedo attack (no particle shields)? And why are we even using the proton torpedo’s attack dice during a shot at the exhaust port? [/size]
In the movie, the torpedoes that destroyed the death star didn’t explode near the surface; they traveled down the exhaust shaft and hit the main power generator at the core of the death star. So really, the explosive power of the torpedoes (and what I assume is being primarily being represented by their attack dice), didn’t come into play when the shot was being made. [/size]
So why not divorce the exhaust port attack from the proton torpedo’s attack value completely, and tie it to something else. For example, you could change the attack to a single attack die, where anything but a critical hit counts as a miss (maybe you could re-roll with a target lock). You could allow Luke a special bonus when making this attack; maybe he can change a focus result to a critical hit, for example. One would obviously want to play around with exactly what counts as a hit, for balance, but I think that something like this system would more accurately re-create the movie conditions.[/size]
Now that I have had a few days to think about some of the comments and suggestions, I've come around to a few concepts. I'm going to give Babaganoosh credit for this...
I'm going to start playtesting a 0.9 version of my variant with the following modifications:
a. Exhaust port no longer has shields; as a replacement for agility, the port will be granted a single evade for each attack. By doing this, its defensive ability cannot be reduced through pilot ability (e.g., Wedge). Pilot abilities that provide offensive bonuses may still come into play however (e.g., Luke's free target lock action or a player's ability to squeeze in both a lock and focus action before firing upon the port).
b. When rolling an attack die after a power node has been destroyed, a hit will now delay Imperial reinforcements 1 turn the next time Reinforcements are eligible to be placed.
c. Any uncancelled critical hit will destroy the Death Star.
d. For attacks on the Exhaust Port, modify the Proton Torpedo card text as follows: Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your target lock (Luke excepted) and discard this card to perform this attack. You may change one of your focus results to a critical hit result. Attack value: 2.
With the above, all pilots, except Luke, will have roughly a 25% success rate when attacking the port. If they can squeeze in a focus action before launching through good movement planning or Garven's ability, the success rate increases to roughly 33%. Luke's chance for success is roughly 50%, when using both the target lock for reroll and focus.
I'm liking this....
Edited by Biff