Poe is a minor character. And really there is nothing to argue about here, he is stupidly OP, I strongly dislike his piloting skills, but that's just Abrams for you, "You thought you've seen good pilots in the previous movies? Ha! Look at my awesome Poe Dameron! He kills 40 people in 10 seconds! He is an ace pilot and a super spy! Look at his awesome exciting special snowflake starfighter! Look at him, he doesn't even pretend to be worried, he just has fun, how cool is that? Look how aweosme he is destroying that oscilator by firing 12+ torpedoes even though his X-wing carries only 6! How exciting!!!"

>super spy

>gets captured, interrogated, gives up crucial information

You need to be Dhalsim to reach that far, mate. 3/10.

Okay.

"Resistance's best intelligence agent". Who else would you send if you are "desperate" and think that the success of this mission will change the outcome of this war/rebellion/insurgency/uprising/whatever? Random starfighter pilot? How would his piloting skill have any importance?

But I can agree that their intelligence is pretty awful, judging by the almost-fatal in consequences clumsiness of Snap Wexley later in the movie.

@UP I don't even know what is this supposed to mean, but I'm not up to date with le memes :^)

You undersestimate the power of MARY SUE

If she's a Mary Sue, then so is Luke.

Considering she went from padawan apprentice to jedi master in half a movie and it took Luke an entire trilogy and the loss of a hand to do the same. I would confidently say that Rey's Mary-Sue factor > Luke's Garry-Stu factor.

I wouldn't say Jedi Master, the closest she comes is when she resists an interrogation via the force, and performs a mind trick (after failing twice). That does put her on par with Luke at the start of ESB where he is somehow able to make a lightsaber jump into his hand because: reasons.

However she isn't Luke...her story seems to revolve around the mystery of her past, we don't know if she is just a natural, if she has been trained but has repressed memories. We know so little that we can't judge the character.

Furthermore, before you add that she was somehow able to take down Kylo Ren, yes she was able to defeat a trained individual who; was attempting to capture her, had been seriously wounded with an extremely powerful weapon, and who was emotionally compromised and unstable at that time. To say that is the same as what Luke accomplished is false because Ren is nowhere near as powerful, skilled and well trained as Vader was at the time of ESB and RotJ. Ren himself even states that Rey is powerful, untrained maybe, but powerful. It concerned him enough to discuss the matter with Snoke.

That being said, as I have stated before...why does her story have to be like Lukes? I like how she displays these talents, she is not perfect, she has flaws and makes mistakes, however the mystery of the things she can do makes me question her past, which is the missing piece of the puzzle. We know nothing of her life prior to the film other than she was left on Jakku at the age of 4. With Luke we knew he was raised by his aunt and uncle for most of his life, flew T-16s (implied) and that his father was a Jedi who was killed by Darth Vader. In that film the past was glanced over very briefly, while in TFA they make you pay attention to the missing past elements. Until we see Ep 8 or 9, the jury is still out on her and the other characters.

As for Poe, I love Poe as a character, I hope we see more of him, I was more using him as a point, and I still stand by the assertion, that Rey gets criticism because she is a women with people ignoring arguments against the Mary Sue angle.

You undersestimate the power of MARY SUE

If she's a Mary Sue, then so is Luke.

Also, people really like using that term, without fully knowing what it means. A Mary Sue is a projection of the author within the story. I doubt Kasdan sees himself as a 20-something girl.

Rey is a protagonist in a fantasy/adventure story. Most of those protagonists are amazing and mostly flawless (cfr. Indiana Jones, Jack Sparrow, Conan – Rey is actually a scrappier and more awkward hero than those are), because that's what makes them fun. TFA is not a Bergman film. Every issue with Rey is about her gender, consciously or not. Sad, especially in 2016, but true.

I am afraid Poe will die next movie so they don't have to rewrite 9 too much. Just a gut feeling.

She's apparently better than Turr Phennir

Last I checked she has flaws;

she yearns to get off Jakku but is so tied to her belief her family will return.

She wants to go back to Jakku despite this, to the point that she runs (literally) from her destiny which ends up I her ultimately getting captured

While hiding on the salvaging ship she accidentally unleashed dangerous creatures with a fearsome reputation that nearly resulted in the death of one or more main characters and hardened criminals that Han was trying to avoid a direct physical confrontation with.

Her connection to Finn almost results in her death if Chewie did not save the day.

Plus according to the novelisation she had a brush with the dark side...

Who mysteriously survives and then singlehandedly finishes off star killer base and seemingly has no flaws to his character?

All characters in the game of Ability 3 were "Force-attuned." Having enough ability meant "drawing destiny" in the game and was very important in battle. Characters like Han were powerful because they could draw destiny at times despite not having enough ability to do so innately like Vader at ability six since five ability was needed to get the draw.

You were close. It only takes 4 ability total at a location to draw battle destiny. Farmboy Luke and Boshek were the only pilots that could draw destiny by them selves in any ship for the light side in Premier. Han had to be on the Falcon to draw destiny.

I look forward to having this exact same conversation about Jyn Erso.

it's because Rey is a super special Mary Sue of a character but whatever

She's been flying for a lot longer than just those scenes too. We learn this in before the awakening.

You underestimate the power of MARY SUE

Seems to work for Luke. Dear god, am I tired of this "argument". No one would've batted an eye if it was "Son of Luke".

I've destroyed this argument so many times that it's almost tiring at this point. I need to keep a copy.Luke was never a Mary Sue. In fact, if you think he was, I question if you've ever actually seen Star Wars, and if you have, I know for a fact that you have no idea what a Mary Sue character is. You seem to understand it as "Protagonist", lol.Luke spends most of the movies having to be saved. He gets beat up by sand people. Obi Wan saves him in the cantina. Han Solo saves all of them with the Millennium Falcon. C3PO saves them from the garbage compactor. Luke impulsively destroys the controls to the bridge. Wedge saves him in his X-Wing. Han Solo saves him in his X-Wing. Luke Skywalker's only contribution to victory in the first film is to use his meager piloting skills, and a helpful reminder from Obi Wan Kenobi.Then we have The Empire Strikes Back, which, except for a fleeting moment of glory when he destroys an AT=AT through ingenuity, is entirely dedicated to Luke failing at things. He gets beaten up by a Wampa, and Han has to save him. He sucks so badly at being a Jedi, that Yoda is constantly disappointed with him, and contemplates not training him at all. Then, he runs away, leaving his training unfinished because he is impetuous and undisciplined. He gets to Cloud City and not only does he not rescue any of his friends, he sucks so bad at lightsaber fighting that Darth Vader gets bored of dueling and decides to throw things at him instead. And, in the end, he has to get saved by Leia. It isn't until Return of the Jedi that Luke manages to master anything Force related other than "Summon lightsaber in less than three tries." Rey is, inarguably, a terribly written character. When she needs to fly, she's an ace. When the spaceship breaks down, she's an engineer. All skills she learned picking up trash on Planet Afghanistan. Every time she suffers "adversity", it's actually just a vehicle to show the next thing she is really great at. She gets captured so we can find out that she can Jedi by epiphany and escape. She doesn't get rescued so much as "Oh look, I know you guys! That's convenient, I was just escaping on my own!" Then, when she meets a trained Force user, he kicks her butt. Until, that is, she learns to Jedi by Deus Ex Machina. If only Luke had realized it was as easy as muttering "The Force" to himself, he could have beaten Darth Vader in Empire. See, the characters in the original films had strengths and weaknesses, and power and skills that made them the heroes in some parts, and vulnerable in others. Rey doesn't have any of that. She is Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, and Han Solo. In fact, she's so good at being Han Solo, she's better at it than Han Solo is. A character with no flaws, who suffers no adversity, and wins at everything is a Mary Sue. A character who does a few good things in the midst of a ton of struggle and failure is not.

Look how aweosme he is destroying that oscilator by firing 12+ torpedoes even though his X-wing carries only 6! How exciting!!!"

He ain't flying your grandad's old T-65!

Wow some people on here really can't handle a powerful female character.

James Bond? He's so sexy, all the women want him and all the men want to be him.

Captain America? What a virtuous hunk, pure and true. I haven't heard a single complaint about the avengers being too powerful through the 237 movies in that franchise.

Rey? This is a stupid movie written by stupid people and should be re-written so Rey is believably sh*tty as she ought to be.

Look how aweosme he is destroying that oscilator by firing 12+ torpedoes even though his X-wing carries only 6! How exciting!!!"

He ain't flying your grandad's old T-65!

My bad, according to ICS T-70 carries 8 torpedoes. But I've rewatched the scene and Poe launches at least 18, with an implication that there might have been more off-screen

Wow some people on here really can't handle a powerful female character.

James Bond? He's so sexy, all the women want him and all the men want to be him.

Captain America? What a virtuous hunk, pure and true. I haven't heard a single complaint about the avengers being too powerful through the 237 movies in that franchise.

Rey? This is a stupid movie written by stupid people and should be re-written so Rey is believably sh*tty as she ought to be.

Ha, here you are! "You are like Hitler" argument, my favourite!

And are you seriously comparing superhero movies to Star Wars? Is this a sarcasm that I didn't get?

(there are also female superheroes)

Star Wars is about heroe's journey, it...

Forget it, live in your simple world .I don't like half of Finn's jokes because he's black, Poe's pilloting because he is Latino, Hux because he is ginger and Abrams because he is American (obviously I'm a nationalist).

Wow some people on here really can't handle a powerful female character.

James Bond? He's so sexy, all the women want him and all the men want to be him.

Captain America? What a virtuous hunk, pure and true. I haven't heard a single complaint about the avengers being too powerful through the 237 movies in that franchise.

Rey? This is a stupid movie written by stupid people and should be re-written so Rey is believably sh*tty as she ought to be.

Rey could of been male and the argument would be identical don't bring gender politics into this.

Ripley from the alien movies is a fantastic female lead, rey is a bland Mary sue.

Last I checked she has flaws;

Nope. Check again.

she yearns to get off Jakku but is so tied to her belief her family will return.

This isn't a flaw.

She wants to go back to Jakku despite this, to the point that she runs (literally) from her destiny which ends up I her ultimately getting captured

This isn't a flaw. This is a plot device to show her escape.

While hiding on the salvaging ship she accidentally unleashed dangerous creatures with a fearsome reputation that nearly resulted in the death of one or more main characters and hardened criminals that Han was trying to avoid a direct physical confrontation with.

This isn't a flaw. This is a plot device.

Her connection to Finn almost results in her death if Chewie did not save the day.

This is a pretty elaborate misconstruing of a plot device. Still not a flaw.

Plus according to the novelisation she had a brush with the dark side...

Nobody cares about license fiction tie-ins. Bad novels meant to explain plot holes don't excuse bad movie making.

So I point out character flaws, and your reaction is to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich and ignore them. You cite she is perfect and can do no wrong, when clearly, she does make mistakes and does stupid things.

As for the novelization, was a tie in, not some attempt to fix anything and was internal monologue, something that is a bit hard to convey in movies since people are not to fond of a disembodied voice. The look conveys it all as does the script but all that seems to have passed over your head.

All characters in the game of Ability 3 were "Force-attuned." Having enough ability meant "drawing destiny" in the game and was very important in battle. Characters like Han were powerful because they could draw destiny at times despite not having enough ability to do so innately like Vader at ability six since five ability was needed to get the draw.

You were close. It only takes 4 ability total at a location to draw battle destiny. Farmboy Luke and Boshek were the only pilots that could draw destiny by them selves in any ship for the light side in Premier. Han had to be on the Falcon to draw destiny.

Oy, I knew it had been awhile but I hadn't thought I'd forgotten that much. It is/was only four. One of the best CCGs ever.

Wow some people on here really can't handle a powerful female character.

James Bond? He's so sexy, all the women want him and all the men want to be him.

Captain America? What a virtuous hunk, pure and true. I haven't heard a single complaint about the avengers being too powerful through the 237 movies in that franchise.

Rey? This is a stupid movie written by stupid people and should be re-written so Rey is believably sh*tty as she ought to be.

*** shaking my head ***

The phrase "not even wrong" comes to mind. I don't even know where to start rebutting this as it is so full of wrong premises. Let's just leave it at the accusation of not being able to handle a powerful female character is a straight up ad hominem argument and set aside all the other ways it is wrong.

Forum still needs dislike button.

Look how aweosme he is destroying that oscilator by firing 12+ torpedoes even though his X-wing carries only 6! How exciting!!!"

He ain't flying your grandad's old T-65!

My bad, according to ICS T-70 carries 8 torpedoes. But I've rewatched the scene and Poe launches at least 18, with an implication that there might have been more off-screen

Wow some people on here really can't handle a powerful female character.

James Bond? He's so sexy, all the women want him and all the men want to be him.

Captain America? What a virtuous hunk, pure and true. I haven't heard a single complaint about the avengers being too powerful through the 237 movies in that franchise.

Rey? This is a stupid movie written by stupid people and should be re-written so Rey is believably sh*tty as she ought to be.

Ha, here you are! "You are like Hitler" argument, my favourite!

And are you seriously comparing superhero movies to Star Wars? Is this a sarcasm that I didn't get?

(there are also female superheroes)

Star Wars is about heroe's journey, it...

Forget it, live in your simple world .I don't like half of Finn's jokes because he's black, Poe's pilloting because he is Latino, Hux because he is ginger and Abrams because he is American (obviously I'm a nationalist).

Just tearing those strawmen to shreds! Well done, feel powerful?

I'm not into gender politics at all. I don't mind powerful characters as long as they're interesting, and I found Rey interesting. She's got emotional baggage, which is a flaw (character flaws are often used as plot devices).

But the fact that there exists a term that (though this is not what it actually means) is used to mean "a female characterawho is unbelievably flawless" comes across as a teensy bit sexist. The "equivalent" expressions for men were created after the fact in more of a clever little joke--like how every single scandal now has gate attached to the back of it.

As far as the same argument existing for male characters, I made that argument, the only counter argument was "nuh-uh" and the above shredding of a thousand straw men.

James Bond is an unbelievably flawless character and that has made him one of the most iconic pop culture characters of all time. And I fail to see how comparing super heroes to star wars is so inappropriate as to not even warrant a response. Is fantasy opera in space so different a genre as fantasy that is occasionally in space? But since that's an argument you're unwilling to address, I'll leave it alone.

Let's apply a more direct one. There is a male character that is unbelievably flawless--Luke Skywalker. Perhaps you've heard of him, he's one of the most quintessential coming of age heroes of all time.

He blocks a laser bolt on his 3rd try while blinded without any proper force training. He destroys a multitude of TIE fighters the very first time he climbs into the Gunner's chair of the Falcon, and the very first time he flies an X-wing (which also happens to be his very first time flying a space ship) makes a one in a trillion shot on the death star with no targeting computer while almost everyone around him dies. If that's not a Mary Sue, I don't know what is.

And before you try to respond that, let's leave the "he had a T-16 at home and they have similar controls" rebuttal at home. There's a reason I'm not a jet pilot, and it's not because of the lack of a Xbox controller on the dash.

Luke accomplishes everything he sets out to and you never get the sense he's in any real danger but he's PS 8 in the game and that's A-okay.

Rey does the same stuff as Luke and is PS 8 and people are screaming "Mary Sue!!!" at the top of their lungs.

Don't like the movie? Don't watch it.

Don't like this expansion? Don't buy it.

All this endless bitching will not delete her character from the movie, or prevent her from entering the game. It just makes you all look desperate to the point of being sad.

Wow some people on here really can't handle a powerful female character.

James Bond? He's so sexy, all the women want him and all the men want to be him.

Captain America? What a virtuous hunk, pure and true. I haven't heard a single complaint about the avengers being too powerful through the 237 movies in that franchise.

Rey? This is a stupid movie written by stupid people and should be re-written so Rey is believably sh*tty as she ought to be.

Rey could of been male and the argument would be identical don't bring gender politics into this.

Ripley from the alien movies is a fantastic female lead, rey is a bland Mary sue.

While I don't disagree that some people might hold the opinion of the writing, I think there's a case that could be made that she's being far more scrutinized than if she were a male. The very notion of a Mary Sue originated around gender. While there are male terms for similar things, they came after, aren't used nearly as much, and aren't as consistently referenced.

For the record, I hate James Bond, I hate Luke Skywalker, and Rey is still a badly written character. Also for the record, Luke is no where near as unbelievably flawless as Rey.

Either way, I don't care about this argument, I just hate it when people's arguments are based on assuming the other guy likes something they may not. I like Rey, but that doesn't mean that I don't see the bad writing of her character.

All this endless bitching will not delete her character from the movie, or prevent her from entering the game. It just makes you all look desperate to the point of being sad.

Thank you for nailing it so exactly.

I'm done arguing about the (often unintentionally) sexist discrimination towards the movie and the characters within. But I would like to also point out that, sometimes, military hardware isn't all that user-unfriendly

Wow some people on here really can't handle a powerful female character.

James Bond? He's so sexy, all the women want him and all the men want to be him.

Captain America? What a virtuous hunk, pure and true. I haven't heard a single complaint about the avengers being too powerful through the 237 movies in that franchise.

Rey? This is a stupid movie written by stupid people and should be re-written so Rey is believably sh*tty as she ought to be.

I find it amusing that her PS skill is such an issue.