Rey has been training on flight simulators for years and piloting other ships in the background, PS 7 maybe

Force sensitivity and the precognitive reflexes it gives is an amazing buff to your piloting ability. Luke managed to survive the Battle of Yavin and being attacked by Vader. His piloting experience? A beaten up T-16 Skyhopper. When it's incredibly high Force Sensitivity like Rey or a Skywalker PS8's to be expected.

It makes Han, Dengar, Wedge, Soontir and Talonbane all that more impressive for being PS9 without it.

Wedge was also force sensitive according to the old cannon. Even the old decipher card game (from where the names of the tie fighter pilots in this game come from and that before disney was considered a cannon source ) presented him as same force level as luke.

PS8 is totally fine.

You underestimate the power of MARY SUE

Seems to work for Luke.

Dear god, am I tired of this "argument". No one would've batted an eye if it was "Son of Luke".

I've destroyed this argument so many times that it's almost tiring at this point. I need to keep a copy.

Luke was never a Mary Sue. In fact, if you think he was, I question if you've ever actually seen Star Wars, and if you have, I know for a fact that you have no idea what a Mary Sue character is. You seem to understand it as "Protagonist", lol.

Luke spends most of the movies having to be saved. He gets beat up by sand people. Obi Wan saves him in the cantina. Han Solo saves all of them with the Millennium Falcon. C3PO saves them from the garbage compactor. Luke impulsively destroys the controls to the bridge. Wedge saves him in his X-Wing. Han Solo saves him in his X-Wing. Luke Skywalker's only contribution to victory in the first film is to use his meager piloting skills, and a helpful reminder from Obi Wan Kenobi.

Then we have The Empire Strikes Back, which, except for a fleeting moment of glory when he destroys an AT=AT through ingenuity, is entirely dedicated to Luke failing at things. He gets beaten up by a Wampa, and Han has to save him. He sucks so badly at being a Jedi, that Yoda is constantly disappointed with him, and contemplates not training him at all. Then, he runs away, leaving his training unfinished because he is impetuous and undisciplined. He gets to Cloud City and not only does he not rescue any of his friends, he sucks so bad at lightsaber fighting that Darth Vader

Wow, I did not expect this level of ire from the community. I suppose that'll teach me too past knee-jerk reactions.

Lesson learned.

As a bit of a flow up, many comments have merit, especially taken from the perspective of the next 2 movies.

Thank you all for the lively discourse.

Christ on a bike I can't believe real people are still this upset about Rey.

She's awesome, she's good at things, and midichlorians. Done.

Saint Mary in an airspeeder, that's exactly what's wrong with her, she is too awesome and too good at (every)things and midichlorians.

Luke managed to be awesome, yet by no means perfect and self-sufficient, in the Battle of Yavin alone he was saved at least two times, not even counting Biggs' sacrifice and Integrated Astromech.

But what exactly is it that Rey is too good at?

Christ on a bike I can't believe real people are still this upset about Rey.

She's awesome, she's good at things, and midichlorians. Done.

Saint Mary in an airspeeder, that's exactly what's wrong with her, she is too awesome and too good at (every)things and midichlorians.

Luke managed to be awesome, yet by no means perfect and self-sufficient, in the Battle of Yavin alone he was saved at least two times, not even counting Biggs' sacrifice and Integrated Astromech.

But what exactly is it that Rey is too good at?

Everything she touches.

There are characters in TFA that have good development and are WIDE open for further development, Rey isn't one of them. She's already ROTJ Luke.

Christ on a bike I can't believe real people are still this upset about Rey.

She's awesome, she's good at things, and midichlorians. Done.

Saint Mary in an airspeeder, that's exactly what's wrong with her, she is too awesome and too good at (every)things and midichlorians.

Luke managed to be awesome, yet by no means perfect and self-sufficient, in the Battle of Yavin alone he was saved at least two times, not even counting Biggs' sacrifice and Integrated Astromech.

But what exactly is it that Rey is too good at?

Flying the Falcon(outflew Tie aces), fixing the Falcon(out-smarted Han), using the Force(overpowered Ren), saber dueling(defeated Ren)...she's amazing at everything that Luke took 3 movies to get decent at. One can infer that she's either had some sort of prior training and/or that she's "The Chosen One", but there is very little justification for her ability to do everything better than everyone else.

Christ on a bike I can't believe real people are still this upset about Rey.

She's awesome, she's good at things, and midichlorians. Done.

Saint Mary in an airspeeder, that's exactly what's wrong with her, she is too awesome and too good at (every)things and midichlorians.

Luke managed to be awesome, yet by no means perfect and self-sufficient, in the Battle of Yavin alone he was saved at least two times, not even counting Biggs' sacrifice and Integrated Astromech.

But what exactly is it that Rey is too good at?

EVERYTHING!

In regards to Rey if you read before the awakening it explains that she has logged a ton of time in a flight simulator she salvaged from a y-wing and knows how to fly a lot of different ships due to it. That + force abilities I can see the ps8

As SithHappenz posted, you should read the book "Star Wars: Before the Awakening" - this book will tell you how Rey learned to fly.

Being stuck in Jakku with nothing much to do, allowed her to practice flying many types of ships. She even tried simulations with scenarios of breakdowns or damage to ships, so that she can simulate repairs - this is how she is able to quickly find ways to fix the Millennium Falcon (in addition to her scavenging skills for ship parts) - this allowed her to have great flying skills as well as mechanic skills.

Find out more here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Before_the_Awakening

Or buy the book

http://www.amazon.com/Before-Awakening-Star-Wars-Rucka/dp/148472822X

PS8 seems to be where FFG has settled on pilots with strong force abilities.

Luke Skywalker

Corran Horn

Rey

Carnor Jax

The Inquisitor

All of these pilots are somewhat gifted in the Force. The only real exceptions to this list are Kyle Katarn (PS6) and Kanan (PS5) and Ezra (PS4). Kyle didn't really being training in the force until well after his days pal'in around with Jan Ors and stealing Death Star plans aboard the Crow. Kanan and Ezra are hardly jedi, are very young, and have not had much time or experience flying. Rey might fit the later part, but clearly she's "chosen one" levels of force sensitive. Vader is a PS9 because a big of part of his identity is being "the best pilot in the galaxy" and he spent his youth Pod Racing.PS9 seems reserved for dedicated incredible pilots with a ton of flying experience and natural talent.

Poe Dameron (new)

Han Solo

Wedge Antilles

Soontir Fel

Darth Vader

Dengar

and whoever the hell Talonbane Cobra is

Cobra is the dread Pirates Roberts of X-wing. Always someone new that takes title from the last with the training and skills.

Mary Sue arguments aside, I've always seen PS like:

PS 1-2: Rookie Pilots

PS 3-4: Pilots with prior skill/and or good reflexes, maybe not combat veterans

PS 5-6: Hardened combat veterans, most likely Aces

PS 7: Truly gifted pilots and super experienced pilots

PS 8: The best of the best

PS 9: Living legends. If 8s are super elite pilots, these people could win a dogfight blindfolded.

I would've made Rey a 7, but as others have said: Fluff =/= Mechanics

PS8 seems to be where FFG has settled on pilots with strong force abilities.

Luke Skywalker

Corran Horn

Rey

Carnor Jax

The Inquisitor

All of these pilots are somewhat gifted in the Force. The only real exceptions to this list are Kyle Katarn (PS6) and Kanan (PS5) and Ezra (PS4). Kyle didn't really being training in the force until well after his days pal'in around with Jan Ors and stealing Death Star plans aboard the Crow. Kanan and Ezra are hardly jedi, are very young, and have not had much time or experience flying. Rey might fit the later part, but clearly she's "chosen one" levels of force sensitive. Vader is a PS9 because a big of part of his identity is being "the best pilot in the galaxy" and he spent his youth Pod Racing.PS9 seems reserved for dedicated incredible pilots with a ton of flying experience and natural talent.

Poe Dameron (new)

Han Solo

Wedge Antilles

Soontir Fel

Darth Vader

Dengar

and whoever the hell Talonbane Cobra is

Cobra is the dread Pirates Roberts of X-wing. Always someone new that takes title from the last with the training and skills.

TBC is the Avatar.

In regards to Rey if you read before the awakening it explains that she has logged a ton of time in a flight simulator she salvaged from a y-wing and knows how to fly a lot of different ships due to it. That + force abilities I can see the ps8

As SithHappenz posted, you should read the book "Star Wars: Before the Awakening" - this book will tell you how Rey learned to fly.

Being stuck in Jakku with nothing much to do, allowed her to practice flying many types of ships. She even tried simulations with scenarios of breakdowns or damage to ships, so that she can simulate repairs - this is how she is able to quickly find ways to fix the Millennium Falcon (in addition to her scavenging skills for ship parts) - this allowed her to have great flying skills as well as mechanic skills.

Find out more here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Before_the_Awakening

Or buy the book

http://www.amazon.com/Before-Awakening-Star-Wars-Rucka/dp/148472822X

No if it's not in the movie it's not relevant.

They added that after the negative reaction to make her less sue, but it's too little too late because you from your impressions watching the movie.

Luke. PS 8. ??? Coincidence hmmmm

As a Force user, Yes! He was even a pilot before the X-wing and Wedge could destroy him hands down without the force. The only reason Luke is an 8 is because of the force PERIOD.

To b fair on the novels later, Luke repeatedly stated that Wedge was very powerful in the force and could be trained into a Jedi but he refused to be.

No...? That never happened.

In fact, they confirm in one of the novels (Jedi Search, I think) that Wedge has no talent for the force.

In regards to Rey if you read before the awakening it explains that she has logged a ton of time in a flight simulator she salvaged from a y-wing and knows how to fly a lot of different ships due to it. That + force abilities I can see the ps8

As SithHappenz posted, you should read the book "Star Wars: Before the Awakening" - this book will tell you how Rey learned to fly.

Being stuck in Jakku with nothing much to do, allowed her to practice flying many types of ships. She even tried simulations with scenarios of breakdowns or damage to ships, so that she can simulate repairs - this is how she is able to quickly find ways to fix the Millennium Falcon (in addition to her scavenging skills for ship parts) - this allowed her to have great flying skills as well as mechanic skills.

Find out more here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Before_the_Awakening

Or buy the book

http://www.amazon.com/Before-Awakening-Star-Wars-Rucka/dp/148472822X

One of the things that soured me towards the new film was that they nuked the old EU as part of it. Part of the reasoning behind that is a new film would be confusing to folks who hadn't read any of the books if it weren't jettisoned. But now that things in the new movie are confusing or unexplained the first fall back is to send us to a book. Aside from being ironic as all get out this to me reinforces the idea that the film is bad. If you need supplemental material because it isn't in the film you've taken shortcuts with the story and the characters and want to give the characters things they haven't earned.

I shouldn't be surprised that this is the road taken with this. It is exactly what this director did with another sci-fi property.

Flying the Falcon(outflew Tie aces), fixing the Falcon(out-smarted Han), using the Force(overpowered Ren), saber dueling(defeated Ren)...she's amazing at everything that Luke took 3 movies to get decent at. One can infer that she's either had some sort of prior training and/or that she's "The Chosen One", but there is very little justification for her ability to do everything better than everyone else.

Flying: simulators, spare time, her personal speeder. She also does get shot an awful lot trying to escape a mere two TIEs, but then we all know the Falcon has something like eight Hull.

Fixing the Falcon: not only did she know ahead of time the state of the Falcon, and therefore had a notion as to what might need be done, she's a scrap scavenger. I assume scrap in working order might be worth more than otherwise. She also lives in a hollowed-out AT-AT; we can infer she has a degree of repair/engineering experience, to say nothing of the speeder she built by herself.

Pushing back at Kylo Ren with the Force during interrogation: not sure what the mechanics are of invading someone's mind with your own, but I got the sense that in order to peek into Rey's head, Kylo provides a connection. Rey is likely able to exploit this connection with her own burgeoning Force connection. I would hazard a guess that Kylo isn't used to interrogating anyone Force sensitive, seeing as he's murdered most of them.

Overpowering Kylo Ren with a lightsabre: Kylo is wounded, exhausted, and possibly in a state of delirium or shock. Not at his prime. Rey is implied to be very strong with the Force, and she calls upon it more and more during the course of their fight. She is also an accomplished fighter due to growing up on Jakku, and her proficiency with her staff is displayed earlier.

She has spent her life honing a long list of survival skills that get her to the end of the film. She isn't a prodigy, at least not yet, but she's worked and worked and worked to be what she is in the film. To call her poorly written or a Mary Sue character are not only facile arguments, they're also inaccurate.

Edit: and lest we forget, Luke Goddamn Skywalker himself was both a prodigy and untested prior to the Battle of Yavin. He grew up on a farm. His recreational use of a skyhopper and a targeting blaster had little to do with his everyday survival, and yet produced the degree of talent necessary for the Force to help him destroy the Death Star. He adapted very quickly but was also untrained in the Force for something like two years before Empire. All he managed to do by that point was yoink a lightsabre from across the room after grimacing at it for half an hour.

Okay, I'm exaggerating. But the main comparison I want to draw is that Luke's background was very different to Rey's, desert planets notwithstanding. It isn't an even comparison.

Edit edit: also we still don't really know what the heck the Force Awakening does or has done. That might be part of the issue.

again fluff != gameplay

the real hero of the Force Awakens, the one who actually did all the work and allowed our protagonists to actually escape star killer base with their lives, is PS 5

Christ on a bike I can't believe real people are still this upset about Rey.

She's awesome, she's good at things, and midichlorians. Done.

Saint Mary in an airspeeder, that's exactly what's wrong with her, she is too awesome and too good at (every)things and midichlorians.

Luke managed to be awesome, yet by no means perfect and self-sufficient, in the Battle of Yavin alone he was saved at least two times, not even counting Biggs' sacrifice and Integrated Astromech.

But what exactly is it that Rey is too good at?

Flying the Falcon(outflew Tie aces), fixing the Falcon(out-smarted Han), using the Force(overpowered Ren), saber dueling(defeated Ren)...she's amazing at everything that Luke took 3 movies to get decent at. One can infer that she's either had some sort of prior training and/or that she's "The Chosen One", but there is very little justification for her ability to do everything better than everyone else.

1. What makes you say these were TIE aces? Also she outflew them because she's memorized every nook and craney of that **** from scavenging it and knew where to dodge and where to turn.

2. It was obviously an accident. She legitimately stares off in wonderment after she does it like "Holy crap... did that actually work?" This is not her being amazing this is them trying to quickly figure something out and her happening to stumble upon the answer first. (While using her EXTENSIVE MECHANICS KNOWLEDGE)

3. She definitely is crazy powerful in the force, but "overpowering" is a bit of a stretch. She blocks him out of her mind and gets a small glimpse of his. I don't use the force but I would say defending your own mind takes less work than invading someone elses.

4. She was TERRIBLE at saber dueling. A) Kylo is injured at this point. B) Kylo just fought Finn at this point, while injured. C) Kylo Ren is no Darth Vader, he is very undisciplined himself. D) Rey's technique is 100% lacking and you can see it's because she's skilled at combat with a different weapon (staff), she pokes an prods while the saber flaps around. E) Kylo spends much too much time toying with her and not enough actually trying to fight while she is actually trying to win. F) Kylo Ren just killed his father, and as "evil" as he may be, it was a struggle to do that. He's exhausted, he's injured, he's emotional and he's cold. Hell he's so arrogant he actually gives her training while fighting her.

Why do people pretend Rey went in and destroyed Kylo Ren? She barely survived and it was almost all because of his own arrogance. She's strong in the force, strong in combat, but she's got a lot of training to go.

Anakin was a child. Luke was a Moisture farmer. Rey was a mechanic forced to survive on her own for years, defending herself, getting food for herself, and getting good at what ever she could to survive. In The Force Awakens she isn't "amazing" at EVERYTHING. she SURVIVES at everything.

EDIT: Whoops I got ninja'd by Tseigetiez who said almost exactly the same thing, and more concisely!

Christ on a bike I can't believe real people are still this upset about Rey.

She's awesome, she's good at things, and midichlorians. Done.

Saint Mary in an airspeeder, that's exactly what's wrong with her, she is too awesome and too good at (every)things and midichlorians.

Luke managed to be awesome, yet by no means perfect and self-sufficient, in the Battle of Yavin alone he was saved at least two times, not even counting Biggs' sacrifice and Integrated Astromech.

But what exactly is it that Rey is too good at?

Flying the Falcon(outflew Tie aces), fixing the Falcon(out-smarted Han), using the Force(overpowered Ren), saber dueling(defeated Ren)...she's amazing at everything that Luke took 3 movies to get decent at. One can infer that she's either had some sort of prior training and/or that she's "The Chosen One", but there is very little justification for her ability to do everything better than everyone else.

1. What makes you say these were TIE aces? Also she outflew them because she's memorized every nook and craney of that **** from scavenging it and knew where to dodge and where to turn.

2. It was obviously an accident. She legitimately stares off in wonderment after she does it like "Holy crap... did that actually work?" This is not her being amazing this is them trying to quickly figure something out and her happening to stumble upon the answer first. (While using her EXTENSIVE MECHANICS KNOWLEDGE)

3. She definitely is crazy powerful in the force, but "overpowering" is a bit of a stretch. She blocks him out of her mind and gets a small glimpse of his. I don't use the force but I would say defending your own mind takes less work than invading someone elses.

4. She was TERRIBLE at saber dueling. A) Kylo is injured at this point. B) Kylo just fought Finn at this point, while injured. C) Kylo Ren is no Darth Vader, he is very undisciplined himself. D) Rey's technique is 100% lacking and you can see it's because she's skilled at combat with a different weapon (staff), she pokes an prods while the saber flaps around. E) Kylo spends much too much time toying with her and not enough actually trying to fight while she is actually trying to win. F) Kylo Ren just killed his father, and as "evil" as he may be, it was a struggle to do that. He's exhausted, he's injured, he's emotional and he's cold. Hell he's so arrogant he actually gives her training while fighting her.

Why do people pretend Rey went in and destroyed Kylo Ren? She barely survived and it was almost all because of his own arrogance. She's strong in the force, strong in combat, but she's got a lot of training to go.

Anakin was a child. Luke was a Moisture farmer. Rey was a mechanic forced to survive on her own for years, defending herself, getting food for herself, and getting good at what ever she could to survive. In The Force Awakens she isn't "amazing" at EVERYTHING. she SURVIVES at everything.

It's also very clear that Ren isn't actually trying to kill her which can be a tougher method of fighting.

I don't disagree with the fact that there's something missing from Rey's piloting in the movie and it's unfortunate it only made more sense after reading tie-in books. I think that's fair to point to as poor writing in the movie, but that doesn't mean that Rey was poorly written (I won't rehash many of the valid arguments above where there were scenes that set up her skill/expertise/knowledge, even if some were subtle).

In regards to Rey if you read before the awakening it explains that she has logged a ton of time in a flight simulator she salvaged from a y-wing and knows how to fly a lot of different ships due to it. That + force abilities I can see the ps8

As SithHappenz posted, you should read the book "Star Wars: Before the Awakening" - this book will tell you how Rey learned to fly.

Being stuck in Jakku with nothing much to do, allowed her to practice flying many types of ships. She even tried simulations with scenarios of breakdowns or damage to ships, so that she can simulate repairs - this is how she is able to quickly find ways to fix the Millennium Falcon (in addition to her scavenging skills for ship parts) - this allowed her to have great flying skills as well as mechanic skills.

Find out more here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Before_the_Awakening

Or buy the book

http://www.amazon.com/Before-Awakening-Star-Wars-Rucka/dp/148472822X

No if it's not in the movie it's not relevant.

They added that after the negative reaction to make her less sue, but it's too little too late because you from your impressions watching the movie.

Not in the movie not relevant? errr.. that would make Soontir Fel, Outrider, Defenders, etc. all not relevant...

The book was offically published in Dec 18, the same day as the official movie release... i don't think, they can magically reprint the books to make her less sue in the same day.... "the force doesn't work like that"

Luke. PS 8. ??? Coincidence hmmmm

As a Force user, Yes! He was even a pilot before the X-wing and Wedge could destroy him hands down without the force. The only reason Luke is an 8 is because of the force PERIOD.

To b fair on the novels later, Luke repeatedly stated that Wedge was very powerful in the force and could be trained into a Jedi but he refused to be.

Having read all of the post-OT expanded universe books....what? No he didn't...

It's also very clear that Ren isn't actually trying to kill her which can be a tougher method of fighting.

I don't disagree with the fact that there's something missing from Rey's piloting in the movie and it's unfortunate it only made more sense after reading tie-in books. I think that's fair to point to as poor writing in the movie, but that doesn't mean that Rey was poorly written (I won't rehash many of the valid arguments above where there were scenes that set up her skill/expertise/knowledge, even if some were subtle).

Uhhh....yes. Yes that does mean exactly that thing. If there is poor writing for a character in the movie, it means the character (by definition) is "poorly written".

It's not like it would be IMPOSSIBLE to explain how Rey got her abilities - certainly, there are better pilots/force users/mechanics/etc than her in the series, already. It's just that the movie makes no attempt to do so at all. It doesn't even hint that there IS an explanation, just...*pow*...she's immediately perfect at everything she tries.

At least little Annie in the prequels had an "unusually high midichlorian count", which everyone groaned at, and didn't really get elaborated on...but it meant there was a reason he was closest-character-to-Rey's-level-of-unnaturally-good-at-everything.

Meet the best engineer this side of the Yaruga;

I don't think "20-something girl learned to be a super skilled pilot by flying MS Flight Simulator while she had nothing to do EXCEPT STRUGGLING TO SURVIVE ON A DESERT PLANET WHILE BEING AT THE SAME TIME POOR AS HELL AND GENEROUS TO OTHERS" requires any comments...

Luke. PS 8. ??? Coincidence hmmmm

As a Force user, Yes! He was even a pilot before the X-wing and Wedge could destroy him hands down without the force. The only reason Luke is an 8 is because of the force PERIOD.

To b fair on the novels later, Luke repeatedly stated that Wedge was very powerful in the force and could be trained into a Jedi but he refused to be.

No...? That never happened.

In fact, they confirm in one of the novels (Jedi Search, I think) that Wedge has no talent for the force.

Decipher card game was considered cannon source (so much that almost all the pilots in game (all the tie fighters for example) have their names extracted from that game) and it listed wedge with the same force sensitiveness as luke as of a new hope.