I log on to the forums several times a week, and it seems every time I do there's a brand new thread demanding a fix for the T-65. While I'd agree for its stats and cost it's not on the level of many other ships, I do see many competitive lists that contain Luke, Biggs, Wedge, Wes, and probably a few others I've missed. So it's arguable a 'fix' may not even be necessary because the ship ain't broken.

However, my real question is this: Do you think some ships should be allowed to become obsolete?

Full disclosure, I come from a card gaming background, where no one (no one who could be taken seriously, at least) expected every card to be good. So why does it seem like X-Wing players want every ship to be unquestionably butt-kicking?

The T-65 was released at the beginning of the game. When there were two factions that each had exactly two ships to choose from. And let's be honest, if you played Imperial in Wave 1 it was really TIE Fighters and Darth Vader to choose from. The x-wing was good for Wave 1. Now, though.... Is it possible to fix it? Should we?

These questions are not rhetorical. I think maybe we should stop wasting design space on a dead horse (even if it is the game's namesake) and let the T-65 be put out of its misery. However, I'd love to hear reasons why you agree or disagree.

And just a question for people who have a longer history with miniatures gaming: Is it common for stuff to cycle out of legality? I know in card games it was common for chunks of cards to have 'arcs' where they could be used before they shuffled out of the way for new stuff. Does this ever happen in minis games?

ner

maybe if the ship's as obscure and, let's be honest, not terribly loved as the E-wing...but the X is too relevant to both the game and the upcoming Rogue One movie to be abandoned at this point in time

there's also game design to consider, i.e in an ideal world you won't have screwed the pooch so hard as to make a gameplay option obsolete

No.

While I'll agree that not everything can always be on top, just by definition, I do hope that everything remains reasonably playable. What kills a game for me is when the powers that be decide on a power creep plan that voids most older stuff into unusable chaff. It may mean one needs to keep buying to stay up on things but I find it very disappointing as more and more stuff can be packed away never to be seen again.

If you want to go and compare X-Wing to MtG I'd point out that MtG has far more releases every year and a far lower price point. If you buy a booster and get one or two useful cards from it I'd say you're well ahead of buying a small X-Wing expansion and only getting one or two useful cards from it.

Ideally, every ship in the game would have a role and a niche in its faction. So far they've done well here; the only ships that don't have a distinct 'job' in their fleet are the Scyk, and possibly the StarViper (meant to be a fat ace, but terrible at it).

Ideally, every ship in the game would be the right price. So far they've been honestly pretty good at this - aside from StarVipers, E-wings and Defenders, every ship in the game has generally come out no more than a point or two off. Trouble is, the game is now to the point that 'a point or two' is simply not close enough - you either get the points exactly right, or it's a meta-changer (TLT, U-boats) or almost automatically a dud on arrival. Kithraxz and IA X-wings are both fine, really - they're just a point - a single point! - wrongly priced.

Meanwhile, the meta-shapers cause problems of their own - B-wings were just fine, and Mist Hunters would've been just as solid as an interesting 'slightly more deluxe' version thereof... except that TLT was underpriced by a single point, seeing the B-wing driven from tables and G1a never having a chance. Now U-boats are in fashion, and their ability to annihilate TLT Y-wings leaves B-wings & Mist Hunters's identical defense profiles just as toast. It's not that B-wings were rubbish, nor that G1as would have been rubbish by default... it's that there's simply stuff out there that fills their 'heavy fighter at sub-25pts' role even better.

I kind of wonder if they shouldn't have a second set of 'playtesters' who take a look at 'final version' cards and get to do a final price-check once the design is settled; it might help smooth out those last give-or-take-a-point and no-EPT-no-sale type balancing issues.

No.

No one expects all ships to be "butt-kicking," we just want them to be worth their points.

So, I guess it is inevitable that some ships become obselete. The argument is more of an emotional one when it is an X-wing and the game is called X-wing and you play it becasue of movies and computer games with X-Wings....

All that to say it does seem like asking for a T-65 fix is a bit like asking for the imperial gunboat.... aint gonna happen.

Some good points above.

I argue that iconic ships should stay in the focus. Why? Because to a lot of fair weather fans, they are Star Wars. Most Star Wars 'fans' wouldn't recognise an E-Wing, Dash Rendar, Defender, most of the Scum line-up, etc. The iconic and recognisable ships are a hook that draws people to the game. We are seeing evidence of this with the new Heroes of the Resistance pack.

A rebel release without the t-65 fix proves that the t-65 fix isn't coming.

Just like how when the sun goes down we all know that the darkness is upon us and the devourer will reign eternal.

Most Star Wars 'fans' would recognize several of the above if not all. Defender is pretty damned iconic to folk who grew up playing the sims for example.

A rebel release without the t-65 fix proves that the t-65 fix isn't coming.

Just like how when the sun goes down we all know that the darkness is upon us and the devourer will reign eternal.

Fear not for the glory that is The Mighty T-70 has fixed X-Wings... for all time... prolly!

... the game is called X-WING... after all.

1.) Ships should not be allowed to become obsolete.

2.) However, normal 'jouster' ships are obsolete.

No, no, no, and more no.

I absolutely hate it when a unit i have in 40k becomes completely useless either because of the meta shift or their rules get hacked unfairly. Its one thing to become less optimal, its another to become auto-lose for taking it.

Same **** reason i hate Magic. You have to keep buying the most current cards to compete because theyre so ludicrously broken compared to the old ones you cant even attempt to play without the new stuff. So not only do you waste money, you also collect things that just take space/collect dust. I dont buy a model, i invest in a game. When a model becomes useless to me, i feel like my stocks just dropped. Stocks drop too much, i quit.

No. This is not a card game and is still small enough that everything can be balanced pretty simply... If not every pilot or upgrades at least every ship should be playable in more than 1 build.

1.) Ships should not be allowed to become obsolete.

2.) However, normal 'jouster' ships are obsolete.

Stop using the J-word!

As long as FFG has a system that a) makes them more money, and b) makes their players happy, they will continue to revisit ships which under perform and attempt to assure no ship becomes obsolete. Well, every ship but the Outer Rim Smuggler, that is...

tie fighters arent obsolete

If you are worried about say power creep design space and other stuff there may be another fix besides type 1 and type 2 or era based formats.

Splitting the primary factions to where each subfaction is its own separate faction. Right now there are tournament lists that have ships from both TFA and OT ships in it. Take a look at last years world champion list. Now imagine giving Paul Heaver a choice between switching out Poe or making an whole new list to accompany him. It will open up the design space some more as the Rebel Alliance and Galactic Empire loses some ships they used to include, and the newer factions would be where S&V was after Wave 6.

Dear OP, great question!

The thing I think you missed OP, is that Fantasy Flight does what they call 'living games'. All their games use this design philosophy. In this model, all products are intended to be a viable purchase and play choice, at any point in time. There are no formats to block out playable product from other product. There aren't 'supposed'to be any game components that force other products out of being a reasonable purchase. Obviously, they don't always succeed at that. But that is where the FFG loyalists come up with the idea that things that are not 'viable(purchases)' need fixed. It's actually to restore the living game model, from the consumer standpoint. Now is it reasonable for a company to be expected to keep production of a product line as large as X-wing with that design philosophy in mind? Greater question! It mostly works with their card games because each item on the shelf is fairly compact. But X-wing blisters are fairly substantial considering the product inside. So that's a different story. Just some food for thought.

All ships should be viable. It's not easy to balance a print game though. Obviously if an entire ship needs to be buffed then Titles are the easiest way to do that. I always look at it that old less effective ships are fine in the game, but they should have a correspondingly lower points cost. You should be able to fly two (just a theoretical number) old-school ships as opposed to the new shiny one with all the latest bells and whistles for example.

OP short answer is NO.

Do ships become semi obsolete in highly competitive environment of tournaments? Yes with each wave the meta shifts.

But in casual play I expect EVERY ship to be fun and have some actual use for me as a collector/player. That is the fun part of the game.

Most Star Wars 'fans' would recognize several of the above if not all. Defender is pretty damned iconic to folk who grew up playing the sims for example.

I disagree with you. But our disagreement only goes as far as our definition of 'fans'. There are 2 factors to consider.

1. Your age, socio-demographics, interests, circle of friends, etc. may have all contributed on some small way to you liking Star Wars. You refer to a game. Yes, a lot of people played those games. Heck, I still play X-Wing Alliance. You, like most of us here, have an interest in Star Wars that runs quite deep. This interest has prompted you to seek out more of what you like and you would have no doubt read, played and watched your way through this complex universe. You are a fan.

2. TFA has generated a lot of interest in Star Wars. Millions upon millions of people have seen it and liked it. Star Wars is now on trend. It is universally acceptable to say "i like Star Wars" and not be considered a nerd. To these folk, it is simply a fun movie and the next 'cool' thing. Yes, geek is in right now. These folk have jumped on the bandwagon and proudly state they like Star Wars yet have invested zero time in anything outside of the movie(s). They are fans .. but you won't find them on these boards.

The 2's far outnumber the 1's. The 2's don't know what a Jumpmaster5000 is.

A rebel release without the t-65 fix proves that the t-65 fix isn't coming.

Just like how when the sun goes down we all know that the darkness is upon us and the devourer will reign eternal.

Pretty sure there's two Integrated Astromech cards in Heroes of the Resistence. And a few other cards that have a good chance of being the potential 'fix' for the T-65. But I get your point.

Still so way more excited about Imperial Veterans!!!!!

I log on to the forums several times a week, and it seems every time I do there's a brand new thread demanding a fix for the T-65. While I'd agree for its stats and cost it's not on the level of many other ships, I do see many competitive lists that contain Luke, Biggs, Wedge, Wes, and probably a few others I've missed. So it's arguable a 'fix' may not even be necessary because the ship ain't broken.

However, my real question is this: Do you think some ships should be allowed to become obsolete?

Full disclosure, I come from a card gaming background, where no one (no one who could be taken seriously, at least) expected every card to be good. So why does it seem like X-Wing players want every ship to be unquestionably butt-kicking?

The T-65 was released at the beginning of the game. When there were two factions that each had exactly two ships to choose from. And let's be honest, if you played Imperial in Wave 1 it was really TIE Fighters and Darth Vader to choose from. The x-wing was good for Wave 1. Now, though.... Is it possible to fix it? Should we?

These questions are not rhetorical. I think maybe we should stop wasting design space on a dead horse (even if it is the game's namesake) and let the T-65 be put out of its misery. However, I'd love to hear reasons why you agree or disagree.

And just a question for people who have a longer history with miniatures gaming: Is it common for stuff to cycle out of legality? I know in card games it was common for chunks of cards to have 'arcs' where they could be used before they shuffled out of the way for new stuff. Does this ever happen in minis games?

Personally, I think it's good that ships move in and out of fashion, it keeps things fresh and it's a healthy sign that the designers are able to shift the spotlight a bit with every wave.

The problem with the T-65 in particular that it virtually IS obsolete by virtue of the T-70 coming in and being so much better for very little extra cost. Of all the ships in the game perhaps the T-65 is alone in having almost no redeeming features other than one or two niche pilot abilities. I think for many people it's a shame that the most iconic ship in the entire Star Wars universe (not to mention the X-WING Miniatures Game) is the one getting no love.

I think they'll fix it eventually. Not sure how, but I'm sure they will.

I log on to the forums several times a week, and it seems every time I do there's a brand new thread demanding a fix for the T-65. While I'd agree for its stats and cost it's not on the level of many other ships, I do see many competitive lists that contain Luke, Biggs, Wedge, Wes, and probably a few others I've missed. So it's arguable a 'fix' may not even be necessary because the ship ain't broken.

However, my real question is this: Do you think some ships should be allowed to become obsolete?

Full disclosure, I come from a card gaming background, where no one (no one who could be taken seriously, at least) expected every card to be good. So why does it seem like X-Wing players want every ship to be unquestionably butt-kicking?

The T-65 was released at the beginning of the game. When there were two factions that each had exactly two ships to choose from. And let's be honest, if you played Imperial in Wave 1 it was really TIE Fighters and Darth Vader to choose from. The x-wing was good for Wave 1. Now, though.... Is it possible to fix it? Should we?

These questions are not rhetorical. I think maybe we should stop wasting design space on a dead horse (even if it is the game's namesake) and let the T-65 be put out of its misery. However, I'd love to hear reasons why you agree or disagree.

And just a question for people who have a longer history with miniatures gaming: Is it common for stuff to cycle out of legality? I know in card games it was common for chunks of cards to have 'arcs' where they could be used before they shuffled out of the way for new stuff. Does this ever happen in minis games?

Personally, I think it's good that ships move in and out of fashion, it keeps things fresh and it's a healthy sign that the designers are able to shift the spotlight a bit with every wave.

The problem with the T-65 in particular that it virtually IS obsolete by virtue of the T-70 coming in and being so much better for very little extra cost. Of all the ships in the game perhaps the T-65 is alone in having almost no redeeming features other than one or two niche pilot abilities. I think for many people it's a shame that the most iconic ship in the entire Star Wars universe (not to mention the X-WING Miniatures Game) is the one getting no love.

I think they'll fix it eventually. Not sure how, but I'm sure they will.

Biggs will NEVER go out of style.

Wedge is a potential keeper as well.

Integrated keeps the namers in the game. The generics still are not worth the cost versus the action economy of new xwings.

We're talking the ship that gives the game its title here. There's another ship that sucks at the moment, the M-3A, and not many people care about that. The T-65 however is probably the second or third most iconic ship in all of Star Wars.

ner

maybe if the ship's as obscure and, let's be honest, not terribly loved as the E-wing...but the X is too relevant to both the game and the upcoming Rogue One movie to be abandoned at this point in time

I keep seeing people say this, but I'm not sure what it's based on... Rogue One is not about Rogue Squadron as far as any trailers or promotional materials suggest (it's more like Dark Forces: the movie). Rogue Squadron isn't even cannon anymore (the closest thing is the squad of snowspeeder pilots in ESB named "Rogue Group", but in ROTJ the X-Wings are Red Squadron as in ANH). Why do we think X-Wings will be relevent other than being featured in the background?