Okay, so I've been working on my Dodonna/MC30/APT list here and the biggest vulnerability I've found so far is getting out-deployed. If the big fighter/bomber builds can outdeploy me, they can force me to hedge my bets on MC30 placement, slowing down my engagement of their carriers. The longer it takes me to start tackling carriers, the more shots those bombers get on me, and the worse shape the MC30s are in by the time they start getting shots on the carriers.

So, I've been trying to answer the two questions of 1) how can I prevent being out-deployed, and 2) how can I prevent out-deployment from hurting me so badly? I came up with the following:

I'LL SHOOT, YOU RUN (399 points)

1 • MC30c Torpedo Frigate - Ordnance Experts - Assault Proton Torpedoes - H9 Turbolasers - Admonition (88)

2 • MC30c Torpedo Frigate - Ordnance Experts - Assault Proton Torpedoes - H9 Turbolasers - Lando Calrissian (84)

3 • CR90 Corellian Corvette A - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (51)

4 • CR90 Corellian Corvette A - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (51)

5 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - General Dodonna (59)

6 • A-wing Squadron (11) x 6

Objectives

- Most Wanted

- Hyperspace Assault

- Superior Positions

Feedback welcome.

My idea is to give me 4 maximally-flexible deployments (a CR90 and 6 A-wings) before I have to start committing, and two more corvettes (for a total of 6 deployments) before I have to start committing the MC30s. If I'm Player 2, my yellow and blue both mitigate my deployment vulnerability while giving me great positioning advantage. I think Most Wanted is bad for pretty much any list that would pick it, and it's great for me since I'm running Dodonna away on his throwaway CR90 anyway.

Even if I'm Player 1 (worst-case for deployments), this should work well for me against most archetypes:

Double-ISD/Bombers - One ISD will be on the table first, so I'll build my deployment around killing that one.

VVV/Rhymerball - Again, one VSD will be down early. The outlook is very similar to the double ISD-I scenario. This list could outdeploy me, but the VSD is so slow that it's either in striking range or out of the fight until too late.

DeMSU - I built this list to beat that one, and I'm pretty sure I know how to do it.

Double-ISD Christmas Trees - No reason I shouldn't be able to outdeploy this one. Kill one dead, then kill the other dead.

Rieekan AF/AF/Yav+Aces - Aces are expensive--the most stands I've seen in one of these was 8. Even with that many, my adversary will have Yavaris and an AF2 down by the time I'm placing my last MC30.

Ackbar Conga Line- Lol.

One of the things I've noticed that often gets overlooked in deployment advantage discussions is something I call the Deployment Power Curve: how much of your striking power are you putting out on the table over the course of deployment? One of the strengths of DeMSU is not just its high deployments, but the fact that its real offensive punch is centered almost entirely on Demolisher, which can go down on deployment #7. A B-wing bomber wing (without Indy), by contrast, while it may also have 7 deployments, has really tipped its hand almost entirely by deployment #3 or 4 when it starts putting down the B-wings, because the rest of your fleet isn't ever going to be too far from those. An AF2-based Ackbar gunline is similarly committed almost completely with its first deployment, because the other guy knows the rest of the gunline isn't going to be going a dramatically different direction than the first AF2 is. This fleet works pretty well with this Deployment Curve idea, pushing the bulk of its striking power to deployments #7 and 8.

The problems I see with the list are my low bid, my ability to drive the A-wings, and my vulnerability to squadrons.

I've been bidding around 390, to catch initiative over the bomber lists that don't have a lot of points to spare on bids, and the Rieekan lists that disregard bids, and I'm pretty comfortable down there. A bid of 399 isn't going to reliably beat anything.

The A-wings are primarily squadron speed bumps and deployments, but they're also kind of wasted points beyond that because they're not going to be doing much else during the game. They'll be situationally useful against certain builds, and they'll make squadron-light lists think twice about picking Superior Positions.

On vulnerability to squadrons: my plan is what every charge-in-and-black-dice-everywhere list does--kill the carriers fast, then dodge the squadrons. This could bite me in the ass so to speak on Superior Positions, but I think my A-wings can hold off the anal buccaneers long enough to give me time to kill the carriers.

So you basically got to Lyraeus' list?

Hmmm interesting idea about deployment power curve. Think there is merit in that. It made my Defiance corvette list easy to deploy, but I really struggled when I added Salvation.

So you basically got to Lyraeus' list?

The specific difference here is that Lyraeus revolves around the use of Intel Officer... Hence his Dodonna the Oppressor title...

This one is all about the Accuracy...

I've been playing something similar, but I usually have a big bid for 1st Player.

I like to save my MC30s for last and move one in so t can activate and shoot at the beginning on the next turn and leave. That MC30 needs no defensive upgrades as its just one shot and then it generally is out of the rest of the fight. My 2nd MC30 "trail" and repeats what the lead one did in the previous turn often vs. the same target. So form me I'd put Lando on Admonition and let it be the "trail" MC30.

I just find that after the flyby, my MC30s just don't get back into the fight.

So you basically got to Lyraeus' list?

NO.

MAYBE.

SHUT UP.

In seriousness, though, there are some pretty significant differences, despite them both being MC30/MC30/CR90/CR90/CR90. I tried his once, and I think they play pretty differently. A torpedo shrimp is pretty different from a scout.

And yeah, Dras is right that this is much more about the accuracy than the IO. It's interesting, because they kind of end up having the same effect, but with different drawbacks.

IO vs Brace, once the target burns it, it's gone for the game; H9 vs ECM, once ECM is burnt, it's gone just for the round. This makes it much more critical for me to concentrate my fire with multiple arcs in one turn.

IO vs Brace, the attacker only gets it once per round; H9 vs ECM, the defender only gets it once per round. This makes H9 slightly more vulnerable to targeted defense on big hits when you double-arc one ship, but doubles its utility if you're hitting two separate ships in one turn.

IO is countered by voluntarily foregoing use of the token; H9 is countered by ECM (redundant tokens counters both, and is a wash). This is one of the H9's significant edges, because not every ship will have ECM, even if it has the slot.

And most importantly: with IO, the defender will always get the option to use the token once; H9 can completely deny brace, even on the first shot. This makes it ideal for single-shot kills, specifically against corvettes.

The MC30T is specifically geared for rapid, hit-and-fade engagements. Given the choice between the two, suppressing defenses--even temporarily--plays much more to the torpedo shrimp's strength than removing defenses. The MC30 is already very strong against larger ships; what it needs help on is addressing small ships. Because the small ships almost never bring ECM, H9/APT is ideal for preventing those narrow escapes by CR90's and Raiders.

Also, Lyr and I have kind of opposite opportunity costs: he needs TRC in his turbo slot to make his Scouts worth their points at long range. I need Lando in one of my Torps' officer slots to make it survive the One Big Shot at close range. So IO fits better for his defense mitigation; H9 fits better for mine.

I've been playing something similar, but I usually have a big bid for 1st Player.

I like to save my MC30s for last and move one in so t can activate and shoot at the beginning on the next turn and leave. That MC30 needs no defensive upgrades as its just one shot and then it generally is out of the rest of the fight. My 2nd MC30 "trail" and repeats what the lead one did in the previous turn often vs. the same target. So form me I'd put Lando on Admonition and let it be the "trail" MC30.

I just find that after the flyby, my MC30s just don't get back into the fight.

This is how I fly mine as well, when I get first player, except I'm pretty much always trying to get both on the same ship at the same time. Which means that, even as first player, there's a pretty good chance that one or the other is taking a hit before it gets its shot in. Admonition is extremely strong against squadrons; Lando is extremely strong (for one shot) against ships. Whichever one is strong against the adversary's strength is my "trailing" ship, in your example.

With the bidding wars Clonisher has sparked off, I'm not getting involved in trying to slash 10+% of my list to guarantee I get to go first--instead, I'm trying to have a solid plan for going second, and take first if I get it.