You assume that I flew off my Opponents Edge.

I did not.

Both went off the SIDE edge after trying to Hem the opposition in, and overshooting.

The Distraction meant I'd planned Navs a Turn too late to make them handbrake turn...

You assume that I flew off my Opponents Edge.

I did not.

Both went off the SIDE edge after trying to Hem the opposition in, and overshooting.

The Distraction meant I'd planned Navs a Turn too late to make them handbrake turn...

I assumed nothing. I was joking. You may not have known that because i didn't include any lolz or smiley faces, but I was.

I see people down play the VSD and I laugh and laugh. It honestly hilarious!

Sure the VSD has a horrible maneuver but at the same time it is a monster in its own right. One has to have more skill to make the VSD dance,but dance it can!

Every day, it's shuffling.

It really does shuffle. You have to plan it's moves turns in advance. Speed 2 is a trap for it most times.

Know your ships as you know the enemy.

I actually ran a VSD again recently after a very long time not running one. It's easy to forget how sturdy it is for the points, and while the manouverability is suck, if you can funnel enemies into it, it can take a beating and dish one out.

It reminds me of people talking about using B-wing swarms as minefields, VSDs are similar area denial elements that could pair well with a few gladiators or an ISD and Demo.

Taking nothing but VSDs (I have seen this at tournaments) is a good way to get tabled, however.

I won the Ohio regionals with a three VSD list. Total casualties after four games, one VSD. I am tired of being saying it is a bad ship. Just don't ask them to do something they aren't good at.

Nothing wrong with a 3 glad high activation list, they are very good ships ( more points efficient and tanky than a raider with expanded launchers) run one as Demo for your round two/three hit, the second as insidious decked for small ship hunting for your round three/four hit, glad three can act as a trapping piece ( slow played ) so rounds five and six you will have glad three as blocking/trap/anvil, demo will have swung back for a trip tap and insidious will be hanging around the back for a nice mid range arc.

Exactly, now add 2 more gladiators.

Fun!

I see people down play the VSD and I laugh and laugh. It honestly hilarious!

Sure the VSD has a horrible maneuver but at the same time it is a monster in its own right. One has to have more skill to make the VSD dance,but dance it can!

Every day, it's shuffling.

It really does shuffle. You have to plan it's moves turns in advance. Speed 2 is a trap for it most times.

Know your ships as you know the enemy.

I actually ran a VSD again recently after a very long time not running one. It's easy to forget how sturdy it is for the points, and while the manouverability is suck, if you can funnel enemies into it, it can take a beating and dish one out.

It reminds me of people talking about using B-wing swarms as minefields, VSDs are similar area denial elements that could pair well with a few gladiators or an ISD and Demo.

Taking nothing but VSDs (I have seen this at tournaments) is a good way to get tabled, however.

I won the Ohio regionals with a three VSD list. Total casualties after four games, one VSD. I am tired of being saying it is a bad ship. Just don't ask them to do something they aren't good at.

With 4 ships there arent a loy of options for Empire.

I think this is key to the imaginary problem.

The OP asks a fair and important strategical question.

I am real curious what "just don't ask them to do something they aren't good at." actually means, care to enlighten us?

It is stated quite often - what should you expect from a Victory?

You expect a decent amount of Long Range Fire, coupled with Long Range Survivability through Redirects and Hull Points (which puts it over a Nebulon-B, despite Damage being approximate)... As well as integrally having one of the most Efficient Point-To-Squadron command Ratios available to it.

And of course, all of my above statements are pre-upgrades.

With 4 ships there arent a loy of options for Empire.

I think this is key to the imaginary problem.

The OP asks a fair and important strategical question.

The Nebulon-B loses an AA die and a squadron value for 6 points. That's it. It is not a huge thing but still a thing. So in comparison, each of your ships have more variety. Let's not get into squadrons, Imperials have some of the best synergy in their squadrons.

I see people down play the VSD and I laugh and laugh. It honestly hilarious!

Sure the VSD has a horrible maneuver but at the same time it is a monster in its own right. One has to have more skill to make the VSD dance,but dance it can!

Glad we amuse you.

The VSD is a poor ship for a number of reasons, the biggest for me being it cannot move fast or slow enough to escape squadrons sat touching the front of its ship base, them things can effectively sit there for the rest of the game, and every time the VSD moves, you opponent gets to put them back touching the front of your ship again, until it is dead.

It gets 1 AA dice, it gets 3 Red from the front, 2 on the side, 2 on the rear, and any competent Rebel player will not be sitting in your front arc's for you, they will be throwing more dice at your weaker arcs, and you are not in any shape or form escaping from them once they get into that position.

I played VSD's for the entirety of wave one, and I am not some lemon, I know full and well just what a VSD can and cannot do, and atm it cannot justify itself a spot in a fleet over ISD/GSD/Raiders, because unless you are specifically planning on being player two and hoping you get a player who doesn't know wtf they are doing, and so picks your Fire Lanes/Contested Outpost/FleetAmbush so you can guarantee their ships are going to be some where specific, every other Imperial ship can do it's job better than a VSD can do it's, and they can react to fast moving Rebel ships, a VSD cannot.

Actually, no other ship in the ge is as good of a carrier. At the points per squadron value the VSD 1 is fantastic. Sure it is not the best at moving but I have seen and used the VSD to corner powerful players. It does need support. It is not the strongest ship in the ge which is fine but it is only labeled the weakest because people do not have finesse with it.

The VSD is like playing the Rebels. It is not point and click like the rest of your fleets and so you need cunning to make it work. That is what makes it a fun ship.

With 4 ships there arent a loy of options for Empire.

I think this is key to the imaginary problem.

The OP asks a fair and important strategical question.

See I disagree with this. 4 classes of ships with 2 variations each. You have the point efficient carrier, the support VSD (the II), the Raiders and their variations, the Gladiator and the ISD. Each of these have more variation than the 1 extra ship he rebels have over you which is the Nebulon-B.

The Nebulon-B loses an AA die and a squadron value for 6 points. That's it. It is not a huge thing but still a thing. So in comparison, each of your ships have more variety. Let's not get into squadrons, Imperials have some of the best synergy in their squadrons.

I find a quite a bit more variation in my Rebel builds than my Imperial ones, but maybe that's just me. It isn't just a matter of what is possible, but a matter of what people like playing and how effective it is.

The Nebulon-B loses an AA die and a squadron value for 6 points. That's it. It is not a huge thing but still a thing. So in comparison, each of your ships have more variety. Let's not get into squadrons, Imperials have some of the best synergy in their squadrons.

You have missed the point by a much greater distance than a VSD can move in 6 turns.

The point is not that a 5th ship has more variety between its I and II, but that it's an entirely different hull.

Working with the Neb B example, it is as very different ship to the other Rebel ships and, even if similar, is still a different hull with different upgrade slots, defence tokens, shields, hull zones and firepower, plus different titles.

Imperials quite literally lack that additional flexibility... Because they have an entire ship less.

The Nebulon-B loses an AA die and a squadron value for 6 points. That's it. It is not a huge thing but still a thing. So in comparison, each of your ships have more variety. Let's not get into squadrons, Imperials have some of the best synergy in their squadrons.

You have missed the point by a much greater distance than a VSD can move in 6 turns.

The point is not that a 5th ship has more variety between its I and II, but that it's an entirely different hull.

Working with the Neb B example, it is as very different ship to the other Rebel ships and, even if similar, is still a different hull with different upgrade slots, defence tokens, shields, hull zones and firepower, plus different titles.

Imperials quite literally lack that additional flexibility... Because they have an entire ship less.

So you ignore the fact that they are focused and have great synergy between squadrons as well as some of the more point efficient and deadlier titles?

The point is, even if you had 8 ships to pick from, why would you not take Demolisher? What purpose does it not serve? It is a hard hitter, a quick distraction, a blocker, a support ship with a bite.

You are ignoring a few interesting things.

Of all the rebel ships the most versatile are the Assault Frigate and Nebulon-B. While the Imperials have all of their ships as versatile. You want the Raider to be a carrier it can. The CR90 can't do that job. It can be an Ion boat but so cam the Raider.

The Gladiator can be a mini carrier, an anti-squadron platform, and a support ship while being a strong attack platform so it can fill the roll of the Nebulon-B and the MC30.

The VSD is a strong carrier, a strong block, a strong guard. He Assault Frigate is just a mobile medium platform that works well with squadrons.

The ISD is a strong carrier, hard hitter, and has speed. The MC80 is not fast unless you build it to be but even then it is expensive for that.

What you guys complain about in a lack of variety I see as a complaint with only looking at one side of the coin.

Any argument that the VSD was functional as a carrier is entirely dead now that two Gozanti cruisers can activate more squadrons for over twenty points less.

It's under powered, cannot effectively defend itself, slow and clumsy, and outperformed at its best job for a significant discount.

The VSD is dead. Full stop.

Any argument that the VSD was functional as a carrier is entirely dead now that two Gozanti cruisers can activate more squadrons for over twenty points less.

It's under powered, cannot effectively defend itself, slow and clumsy, and outperformed at its best job for a significant discount.

The VSD is dead. Full stop.

The VSD has been pronounced dead by a hundred different people throughout wave 2, yet it keeps finding a place. Those two Gozantis contribute almost nothing in ship-to-ship firepower and lack a weapons team slot. A VSD I with expanded hangars or boost comms plus flight controllers will remain an extremely efficient carrier capable of potent terrain denial, not to mention more health than the two Gozantis.

Any argument that the VSD was functional as a carrier is entirely dead now that two Gozanti cruisers can activate more squadrons for over twenty points less.

It's under powered, cannot effectively defend itself, slow and clumsy, and outperformed at its best job for a significant discount.

The VSD is dead. Full stop.

The VSD has been pronounced dead by a hundred different people throughout wave 2, yet it keeps finding a place. Those two Gozantis contribute almost nothing in ship-to-ship firepower and lack a weapons team slot. A VSD I with expanded hangars or boost comms plus flight controllers will remain an extremely efficient carrier capable of potent terrain denial, not to mention more health than the two Gozantis.

I mostly agree with this (I own 4 VSDs, I've used fleets with VSDs well in the past) but I cannot help but note that the niche of a VSD has become increasingly narrow with each wave. The ISD-II is a superior upgrade-heavy gunship (which used to be the VSD-II's job) and now the Gozanti is making a play for "best points value invested into pushing squadrons around" title. I agree that with Flight Controllers and the like we may still see a VSD (along with Gozantis, likely) as a carrier, but it's increasingly the "great carrier" attribute needs an asterisk. Sooner or later, we need some kind of upgrade for the VSD that brings it back into the limelight like how Turbolaser Reroute Circuits and SW7 Ion Cannons revitalized CR90s.

An issue with running 2 Gozanti that I see is it will lead people back to the days of Wave 1 where they expected Squadrons to do all the work for them. Sure Squadrons are strong but if you use them to whittle down shields, hull and defense tokens then your carrier can get its shots in and cripple or take out the opposition.

Oh, with Jammer Fields coming out, Flight Controllers can be used to mitigate that lost die.

Forgot one thing about Gozanti carriers. They will be easy enough to remove from the equation. So instead of having just enough squadron value on your ships, you will need a few extra to take up any slack that could appear from a bad roll your way.

(snip)

Still missing the point: Imperials have less actual options.

A ship is a big deal. The two factions have the same number of squadrons, and both have some that are generally maligned (YVs and H6s, for example.) Rebels have more ships.

Whether the Demolisher would be better off not is irrelevant because that fifth ship does not exist to be compared to.

(snip)

Still missing the point: Imperials have less actual options.

A ship is a big deal. The two factions have the same number of squadrons, and both have some that are generally maligned (YVs and H6s, for example.) Rebels have more ships.

Whether the Demolisher would be better off not is irrelevant because that fifth ship does not exist to be compared to.

Yes you are 1 ship light compared to the rebels. However, you have far more versatility in your ship builds on a majority of your ships.

Your Gladiator 1 is like the MC30 and the Glad 2 is like the Nebulon-B. That is big in itself.

(snip)

Still missing the point: Imperials have less actual options.

A ship is a big deal. The two factions have the same number of squadrons, and both have some that are generally maligned (YVs and H6s, for example.) Rebels have more ships.

Whether the Demolisher would be better off not is irrelevant because that fifth ship does not exist to be compared to.

You mean you see less options?

Yes you are 1 ship light compared to the rebels. However, you have far more versatility in your ship builds on a majority of your ships.

Your Gladiator 1 is like the MC30 and the Glad 2 is like the Nebulon-B. That is big in itself.

In all reality imperials have 5 "competitive" ship variants, as gsd-1, Isd-1, Isd-2, raider-1, and vsd-1.

And judging by this graph from shmitty :https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xzQSWiSr_UQ/VyaO9j1huSI/AAAAAAAAAWM/x2XUY2ue5wAWzRLGr1_cgqIe2Nu5T_WugCLcB/s1600/Imperial%2Bships.png

We can see that the vsd is pretty much not exsistant so really only 4 variants are available for list building vs the rebels which I see 8 variants regularly played (both nebs, both 30s, both cr90s, mc80 command, afmk2 b) and even the last 2 are used just less frequently.

So rebels have almost double the pool of ships to pick from for Competitive lists, now more doesn't mean Better but it's very clear imperials have FAR less options in list building

(snip)

Still missing the point: Imperials have less actual options.

A ship is a big deal. The two factions have the same number of squadrons, and both have some that are generally maligned (YVs and H6s, for example.) Rebels have more ships.

Whether the Demolisher would be better off not is irrelevant because that fifth ship does not exist to be compared to.

You mean you see less options?

Yes you are 1 ship light compared to the rebels. However, you have far more versatility in your ship builds on a majority of your ships.

Your Gladiator 1 is like the MC30 and the Glad 2 is like the Nebulon-B. That is big in itself.

the gladiator 2 is like a nebulon-b? What?

In all reality imperials have 5 "competitive" ship variants, as gsd-1, Isd-1, Isd-2, raider-1, and vsd-1.

And judging by this graph from shmitty :https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xzQSWiSr_UQ/VyaO9j1huSI/AAAAAAAAAWM/x2XUY2ue5wAWzRLGr1_cgqIe2Nu5T_WugCLcB/s1600/Imperial%2Bships.png

We can see that the vsd is pretty much not exsistant so really only 4 variants are available for list building vs the rebels which I see 8 variants regularly played (both nebs, both 30s, both cr90s, mc80 command, afmk2 b) and even the last 2 are used just less frequently.

So rebels have almost double the pool of ships to pick from for Competitive lists, now more doesn't mean Better but it's very clear imperials have FAR less options in list building

(I, too, scratched my head at the comparison of Glad 2 to Neb.)

Right, Clon, but as you said, it doesn't mean anything. Imperial ships are generalists, and their squadrons are specialists. Rebels are completely opposite. The fact that Imps have only <x> viable chassis doesn't diminish their effectiveness.

Right, Clon, but as you said, it doesn't mean anything. Imperial ships are generalists, and their squadrons are specialists. Rebels are completely opposite. The fact that Imps have only <x> viable chassis doesn't diminish their effectiveness.

(snip)

Still missing the point: Imperials have less actual options.

A ship is a big deal. The two factions have the same number of squadrons, and both have some that are generally maligned (YVs and H6s, for example.) Rebels have more ships.

Whether the Demolisher would be better off not is irrelevant because that fifth ship does not exist to be compared to.

You mean you see less options?

Yes you are 1 ship light compared to the rebels. However, you have far more versatility in your ship builds on a majority of your ships.

Your Gladiator 1 is like the MC30 and the Glad 2 is like the Nebulon-B. That is big in itself.

the gladiator 2 is like a nebulon-b? What?

In all reality imperials have 5 "competitive" ship variants, as gsd-1, Isd-1, Isd-2, raider-1, and vsd-1.

And judging by this graph from shmitty :https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xzQSWiSr_UQ/VyaO9j1huSI/AAAAAAAAAWM/x2XUY2ue5wAWzRLGr1_cgqIe2Nu5T_WugCLcB/s1600/Imperial%2Bships.png

We can see that the vsd is pretty much not exsistant so really only 4 variants are available for list building vs the rebels which I see 8 variants regularly played (both nebs, both 30s, both cr90s, mc80 command, afmk2 b) and even the last 2 are used just less frequently.

So rebels have almost double the pool of ships to pick from for Competitive lists, now more doesn't mean Better but it's very clear imperials have FAR less options in list building

Speed 3, 2 Anti-squadron dice, 2 squadron dice, and a squadron value of 2.

How is it not like the Neb? It has black dice? Well it can have flight controllers and the Neb can't.

(snip)

Still missing the point: Imperials have less actual options.

A ship is a big deal. The two factions have the same number of squadrons, and both have some that are generally maligned (YVs and H6s, for example.) Rebels have more ships.

Whether the Demolisher would be better off not is irrelevant because that fifth ship does not exist to be compared to.

You mean you see less options?

Yes you are 1 ship light compared to the rebels. However, you have far more versatility in your ship builds on a majority of your ships.

Your Gladiator 1 is like the MC30 and the Glad 2 is like the Nebulon-B. That is big in itself.

the gladiator 2 is like a nebulon-b? What?

In all reality imperials have 5 "competitive" ship variants, as gsd-1, Isd-1, Isd-2, raider-1, and vsd-1.

And judging by this graph from shmitty :https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xzQSWiSr_UQ/VyaO9j1huSI/AAAAAAAAAWM/x2XUY2ue5wAWzRLGr1_cgqIe2Nu5T_WugCLcB/s1600/Imperial%2Bships.png

We can see that the vsd is pretty much not exsistant so really only 4 variants are available for list building vs the rebels which I see 8 variants regularly played (both nebs, both 30s, both cr90s, mc80 command, afmk2 b) and even the last 2 are used just less frequently.

So rebels have almost double the pool of ships to pick from for Competitive lists, now more doesn't mean Better but it's very clear imperials have FAR less options in list building

Speed 3, 2 Anti-squadron dice, 2 squadron dice, and a squadron value of 2.

How is it not like the Neb? It has black dice? Well it can have flight controllers and the Neb can't.

(snip)

Still missing the point: Imperials have less actual options.

A ship is a big deal. The two factions have the same number of squadrons, and both have some that are generally maligned (YVs and H6s, for example.) Rebels have more ships.

Whether the Demolisher would be better off not is irrelevant because that fifth ship does not exist to be compared to.

You mean you see less options?

Yes you are 1 ship light compared to the rebels. However, you have far more versatility in your ship builds on a majority of your ships.

Your Gladiator 1 is like the MC30 and the Glad 2 is like the Nebulon-B. That is big in itself.

the gladiator 2 is like a nebulon-b? What?

In all reality imperials have 5 "competitive" ship variants, as gsd-1, Isd-1, Isd-2, raider-1, and vsd-1.

And judging by this graph from shmitty :https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xzQSWiSr_UQ/VyaO9j1huSI/AAAAAAAAAWM/x2XUY2ue5wAWzRLGr1_cgqIe2Nu5T_WugCLcB/s1600/Imperial%2Bships.png

We can see that the vsd is pretty much not exsistant so really only 4 variants are available for list building vs the rebels which I see 8 variants regularly played (both nebs, both 30s, both cr90s, mc80 command, afmk2 b) and even the last 2 are used just less frequently.

So rebels have almost double the pool of ships to pick from for Competitive lists, now more doesn't mean Better but it's very clear imperials have FAR less options in list building

Speed 3, 2 Anti-squadron dice, 2 squadron dice, and a squadron value of 2.

How is it not like the Neb? It has black dice? Well it can have flight controllers and the Neb can't.

Ever taken non-paltry squadrons and a Nebulon but not Yavaris? Yavaris is the main reason for the Neb's existence.

After that, Salvation comes in a good second use. But Yavaris is primarily why the Neb is the Neb and why the Gladiator is not the Neb.

Also. For the record, shmitty's data in regionals records 12% usage of VSDs at the opening round, and 0% usage for top8 and after. Literally. 0. None. Squat. Also, 12% to start isn't much.

I'm game to try the VSD again... but I think most of us could use some pointers versus being told "AHHH ITS VIABLE!!!!11"

We have to somehow totally redefine this ship, like Clon did with the Raider. .. except, its harder cuz we can't even piggy back off multiple activations like the raider can. And we have demolisher to compete with in the point range.

Also, carriers are freaking overrated.