There were a lot of discussions on the weekend about the timing of dengar shooting back in a few different situations

• if Dengar dies can he shoot back? (does pilot skill skill play a roll)
• dose Dengar shoot back against a phantom with Advanced Cloaking Device before it re cloaks? (does having the Ini make a difference)
  
  
  

Thanks in advance for any feedback

There were a lot of discussions on the weekend about the timing of dengar shooting back in a few different situations

• if Dengar dies can he shoot back? (does pilot skill skill play a roll)
• dose Dengar shoot back against a phantom with Advanced Cloaking Device before it re cloaks? (does having the Ini make a difference)

Thanks in advance for any feedback

For your first question, Dengar can only shoot back if he has not already made his normal attack.

So if the player controlling Dengar has initiative and has shot first, then if he dies, he cannot shoot back.

If the other player had initiate, then Dengar can shoot back.

This is because you only remove a ship once it has activated during the combat phase if multiple ships have the same PS.

For your second question, I would say Initiative but I am not sure. It says "after you perform an attack" and "after defending" which feels like the same window, so Initiative decides. But here I would let someone else confirm with a better description perhaps.

Archie

Generally Dengar can not shoot back if he was destroyed. The exception is if he is kept alive due to Simultaneous Fire. This is what Archie is describing above.

As for the ACD and DEngar timing, they are the same so Initiative would determine the order the effects are resolved.

Yet something is nagging in the back of my mind concerning "after defending"
Maybe RAI it was supposed to be "after you rolled your green dice of fail and modified them"

Check this thread.

Yet something is nagging in the back of my mind concerning "after defending"

Maybe RAI it was supposed to be "after you rolled your green dice of fail and modified them"

No, "after attacking" and "after defending" are both the same timing window and both occur after ALL seven steps of the attack have been completed. RAI on this one matches RAW.

So in the event of Dengar and a Phantom with ACD, initiative decides who goes first.

Yet something is nagging in the back of my mind concerning "after defending"

Maybe RAI it was supposed to be "after you rolled your green dice of fail and modified them"

No, "after attacking" and "after defending" are both the same timing window and both occur after ALL seven steps of the attack have been completed. RAI on this one matches RAW.

So in the event of Dengar and a Phantom with ACD, initiative decides who goes first.

Yup. When thinking about these timing windows, consider that Xizor's ability and Draw Their Fire happen when defending. So after defending has to be after that.

I'm never going to trust any one any more..... I'll call a judge every time because I got told different at our games on Saturday

Generally Dengar can not shoot back if he was destroyed. The exception is if he is kept alive due to Simultaneous Fire.

Has there been any clarification on whether Dengar gets both his counter attack and his regular attack in the case of simultaneous fire? That's the bit that I'm not sure how to handle. As far as I know, this is still an open question.

Generally Dengar can not shoot back if he was destroyed. The exception is if he is kept alive due to Simultaneous Fire.

Has there been any clarification on whether Dengar gets both his counter attack and his regular attack in the case of simultaneous fire? That's the bit that I'm not sure how to handle. As far as I know, this is still an open question.

Dengar should always get his counter if he hasn't shot yet it's just whether that counts as his simultaneous fire that is unknown.

Generally Dengar can not shoot back if he was destroyed. The exception is if he is kept alive due to Simultaneous Fire.

Has there been any clarification on whether Dengar gets both his counter attack and his regular attack in the case of simultaneous fire? That's the bit that I'm not sure how to handle. As far as I know, this is still an open question.

Dengar should always get his counter if he hasn't shot yet it's just whether that counts as his simultaneous fire that is unknown.

Why is that an unknown. Dengar's ability does not cause his ship to activate, so even after using his ability, he will still activate when it is his turn to activate, attack then get removed.

I think there was an email from Frank that sorted this particular case out . I'll try and dig it out. I'm fairly sure he said Dengar got one attack under the SAR and was then removed.

Why is that an unknown. Dengar's ability does not cause his ship to activate, so even after using his ability, he will still activate when it is his turn to activate, attack then get removed.

During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill

value equal to the active ship have the opportunity

to attack before being destroyed. If a ship would be

destroyed and it has the same pilot skill value as the

active ship but has not had an opportunity to attack

yet, it is not destroyed. Instead, it retains its Damage

cards and continues to function as normal, suffering

any effects on its Damage cards. After it has had its

opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed

from the play area.

The only argument that remotely suggests Dengar gets 2 attacks is a tenuous one based on the wording 'its opportunity to attack' being construed as the standard attack given once to each ship in the combat phase. If that paragraph used 'an opportunity to attack' consistently throughout it would be abundantly clear Dengar only gets a counter and no further shot.

yeah I found that as well when I looked it up after my last answer. I am pretty sure it was worded with the intent that the ship activate, but I can see why Dengar's ability could be an opportunity to attack.

But then what happens if a ship waiting for an opportunity to attack due to SAR, if it has a TLT or Cluster Missile? Does it get only one attack? Because then it had it's opportunity and it should be removed due to SAR. What about a ship with Gunner? FAQ says it gets so use abilities that trigger after attacking. So it gets to do 2 attacks. Why should Dengar not get to use his ability and then activate when it is his turn?

Unfortunately the wording makes it so. I wish they would rule that Dengar's ability was not his opportunity to attack.

yeah I found that as well when I looked it up after my last answer. I am pretty sure it was worded with the intent that the ship activate, but I can see why Dengar's ability could be an opportunity to attack.

But then what happens if a ship waiting for an opportunity to attack due to SAR, if it has a TLT or Cluster Missile? Does it get only one attack? Because then it had it's opportunity and it should be removed due to SAR. What about a ship with Gunner? FAQ says it gets so use abilities that trigger after attacking. So it gets to do 2 attacks. Why should Dengar not get to use his ability and then activate when it is his turn?

Unfortunately the wording makes it so. I wish they would rule that Dengar's ability was not his opportunity to attack.

Interestingly the new 'attack twice' wording clarifies SAR and cluster or tlt very nicely as they count as 'after attack' triggers now. That opens an interesting can of worms with gunner and tlt triggers but that's another story. Dengar doesn't fall into the same situation because his standard combat phase attack isn't any sort of after attack trigger. It is a bit lame for him but RAW I really don't think he gets to counter and normal attack.

Interestingly there's even an argument for his opportunity to counter being enough to satisfy the SAR due to wording on what constitutes satisfying the rule, so it doesn't seem like he can actually get shot in a way to trigger his counter, decline, and then make his normal simultaneous attack against something. That is a bit more hardline of an interpretation but seems to fall within RAW or at least close.