At last, I have actually found a place I would genuinely consider taking this despised upgrade.

And that is in free-for-all games like the recently released 'Take the Station'. This mode completely changes the dynamic, and this discardable card changes from an overpriced annoyance to something that will make most other players choose to engage someone else's flagship with their squadrons.

Immovable Object
Author: Matt-Shadowlord Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 150/150

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Custom Commander ( 0 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Raymus Antilles ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Cluster Bombs ( 5 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

With 4 fleets on the table, is that the ship you'd send your Boba Fett/Han/Rhymber/Whoever after? Exactly.

And yes it's helped by the fact the mission also boosts the value of the MC80 (which is unlikely to shed points) and that it just can't manage to fit Advanced Projectors instead, but regardless, there they are:

Cluster Bombs included in a list on purpose

This tends to be the case in multiplayer formats. One shot things that hurt people who attack you tend to be much better. However I find that to be a nihilistic black hole gameplay-wise. Its damnably boring from a design perspective, it inhibits the game's flow, and usually whoever takes the bait finally and attack you.. both you and them lose.

So yes, you found a good place for it. But I really hope they don't make Armada cards like they try to make Magic multiplayer cards. Or cards that reference many players.

Actually, I suspect it's the best anti squadron upgrade in the game.

It's not an attack, so no defense tokens.

First. The other defensive upgrades help you much more when sustaining ship attacks. Contrary to what people are percieving now with the extremely heavy dependence on squadrons, not all lists/damage are squadron based.

Your opportunity cost is both Advanced Projectors (good against sqs too) and ECM.

Second its one time use and 4 damage maximum. So, you need to have multiple ships with these, incurring even higher opportunity cost and creating a huge ship weakness or also a bunch of squadrons to well, have some combat between them.

A combination of these two would probably be best.

If we had a resilient AA platform that could take these but wasnt worth protecting with Advanced Projectors that also was cheap enough to fit some squadrons in, i could see it.

That said, 4 blue dice with crits for damage are pretty nice. =)

Also, edit That 150 point build is freaking perfect. Whoo. Yes, that's a really **** good use of that upgrade.

Your forgetting the one true best use of this card: folding it in half to chock the leg of your gaming table to stop that slight wobble it had...

...or using it as a coaster for tequila shots while playing Armada.

On a serious note, good psych warfare use of the card in multi-player. Well done!

Your forgetting the one true best use of this card: folding it in half to chock the leg of your gaming table to stop that slight wobble it had...

...or using it as a coaster for tequila shots while playing Armada.

You're supposed to be using your Point-defense reroutes for that...

Your forgetting the one true best use of this card: folding it in half to chock the leg of your gaming table to stop that slight wobble it had...

...or using it as a coaster for tequila shots while playing Armada.

You're supposed to be using your Point-defense reroutes for that...

I raise you: Sensor Teams.

So that takes care of my wobbly table leg, and tequila shots for both me and my opponent! Crisis averted!

Second its one time use and 4 damage maximum. So, you need to have multiple ships with these, incurring even higher opportunity cost and creating a huge ship weakness or also a bunch of squadrons to well, have some combat between them.

Or you know just put them on your flagship.

If you believe this argument then you must put ecm, advanced projectors on every ship.... and maybe gunnery teams too.... no point just taking one of these cards as they will just ignore that ship....

Cluster bombs are amazing, just waiting for people to see it.

Textwise, they could have made it simpler.

Since it does not count as an attack, use 4 black dice instead, and only count the normal hits as damage to be suffered by attacking squadron. Has the same effect. Otherwise some people may get confused what with the squadron gameplay not using crits, then bomber keyword, etc.

Actually, I suspect it's the best anti squadron upgrade in the game.

It's not an attack, so no defense tokens.

I did the math on it last week. If you look at the anti-squadron efficiency of points, it is the cheapest average 3 damage that you can get in the fighter game. People look down upon it as a one-time ability. Yes, it costs the opportunity to use defensive upgrades, but it can easily find a place on a number of ships that do not take ECM or Advanced Projectors. By anti-squadron point efficiency, I mean that if you take a given fighter or upgrade, what is the overall amount of utility that you're going to get out of it? Some of this is going to be hard to quantify: did you activate by squadron command (which represents additional cost)? Did you prevent the squadrons from engaging your ships for an additional round, which could be worth less damage? Let's take about a given A-Wing: You get 3 dice on the initial attack (1.5), and anywhere from 2-3 return hits usually kills. If you're dealing with generic swarm ties or 4 dice units, then 2 average damage will do it. So you're looking at 3.5 antisquadron for the first one on an 11 point unit. Or at least that's the start of it. I can write more later when I'm not dashing off to start the day.

TL:DR: Cluster bombs are point efficient and the math supports it.

Your forgetting the one true best use of this card: folding it in half to chock the leg of your gaming table to stop that slight wobble it had...

...or using it as a coaster for tequila shots while playing Armada.

You're supposed to be using your Point-defense reroutes for that...

I raise you: Sensor Teams.

Sensor Teams might get some anti-flotilla love in Wave 3.

And I have to agree with GK. PDR is a card I've never ever even considered building around.

Actually, I suspect it's the best anti squadron upgrade in the game.

It's not an attack, so no defense tokens.

I did the math on it last week. If you look at the anti-squadron efficiency of points, it is the cheapest average 3 damage that you can get in the fighter game. People look down upon it as a one-time ability. Yes, it costs the opportunity to use defensive upgrades, but it can easily find a place on a number of ships that do not take ECM or Advanced Projectors. By anti-squadron point efficiency, I mean that if you take a given fighter or upgrade, what is the overall amount of utility that you're going to get out of it? Some of this is going to be hard to quantify: did you activate by squadron command (which represents additional cost)? Did you prevent the squadrons from engaging your ships for an additional round, which could be worth less damage? Let's take about a given A-Wing: You get 3 dice on the initial attack (1.5), and anywhere from 2-3 return hits usually kills. If you're dealing with generic swarm ties or 4 dice units, then 2 average damage will do it. So you're looking at 3.5 antisquadron for the first one on an 11 point unit. Or at least that's the start of it. I can write more later when I'm not dashing off to start the day.

TL:DR: Cluster bombs are point efficient and the math supports it.

How are they efficient? They shoot 1 time and don't serve to engage anything. It's 5 points for 3 average damage, period, and takes an ECM/AP slot. On average I find ECM saves my ISD about 6-8 damage per game (liberating brace 2 to 4 times). On top of that lets look at PPD for CB = .6. If you take, say, a tie fighter with swarm If it shoots 3 times it's equivalent (which is not hard to do) same with a Tie Interceptor. Xwings are even better with roughly the same AS efficiency plus more durability. A-wings are even better because of counter so it would only have to shoot roughly twice.

When you add the opportunity cost to the plain average damage efficiency, to the fact that alternative AS solutions like other squadrons are WAY less niche and have far more utility (engagement, ability to shoot at ships, ability to run away to preserve points) the picture is pretty clear.

For an imperial player CBs are basically unqualified trash for the fact that the only ship that can even take them is the ISDII and if you aren't taking ECM in that slot, just, no. For the rebels it is slightly less bad except rebel fighters have more utility and staying power than imperial squads so you are far more likely to get the total attacks needed to blow the CB average out of the water.

At the end of the day it's 5 points you can only use 1 time, against one type of enemy, that may decide to not attack that particular ship with that particular offensive option.

As the OP points out, these only really become viable as a deterrent as a NET BENEFIT for the equipping player when the other target choices are ships that DONT BELONG TO HIM. This is, indeed, the only intelligent application of this upgrade.

I mean, you're right that they're better than terrible in TtS... I just think QLT does the exact same thing, but better, in the same context. The only catch is they use different slots, but I can't think of any case where you'd want to build like this and wouldn't have an off ret slot other than the assault cruiser, in which case I'd downgrade to command cruiser and save myself a ton of points anyway.

... other than the assault cruiser, in which case I'd downgrade to command cruiser and save myself a ton of points anyway.

...

I wanted to see the look on my opponents face when I Slashed for Seven then Six Red Dice Each Broadside as I barrelled through the Station...

... With a Leading Shots Reroll...

(Yes, I took Enhanced Armaments for Half-an-Ackbar...)

... other than the assault cruiser, in which case I'd downgrade to command cruiser and save myself a ton of points anyway.

...

I wanted to see the look on my opponents face when I Slashed for Seven then Six Red Dice Each Broadside as I barrelled through the Station...

... With a Leading Shots Reroll...

(Yes, I took Enhanced Armaments for Half-an-Ackbar...)

It was almost as good as the look on my opponents' faces when I slashed for 4 red, 3 blue, and (1|2) black with Defiance. Because let's be honest, pretty much everybody right now is heading at least in the general direction of the station, it's not like they're not gonna be pretty close to you toward the end...

... other than the assault cruiser, in which case I'd downgrade to command cruiser and save myself a ton of points anyway.

...

I wanted to see the look on my opponents face when I Slashed for Seven then Six Red Dice Each Broadside as I barrelled through the Station...

... With a Leading Shots Reroll...

(Yes, I took Enhanced Armaments for Half-an-Ackbar...)

It was almost as good as the look on my opponents' faces when I slashed for 4 red, 3 blue, and (1|2) black with Defiance. Because let's be honest, pretty much everybody right now is heading at least in the general direction of the station, it's not like they're not gonna be pretty close to you toward the end...

Defiance wouldn't have worked for me...

I had Initiative and timed it so Turn 3 and 4 when I was hitting the station, after using Engine Techs Early, I was 2nd then 1st Player... So I got my Token on First, AND blew up token carriers.

I'm semi considering using cluster bombs on their thematic ship, the MC30. This ship hardly uses its defensive retrofit, and squadrons tend to be this guys bane, especially when running 2-3 of them. The only issue is putting more points into the little guy.

I'm semi considering using cluster bombs on their thematic ship, the MC30. This ship hardly uses its defensive retrofit, and squadrons tend to be this guys bane, especially when running 2-3 of them. The only issue is putting more points into the little guy.

Man, I've been looking at that, and I just can't justify it. It's not like they're not going to attack that Admonition barreling toward their flagship just because one of their 9pt/5hp TIE bombers or 14pt/5hp B-wings is going to take three damage for doing it. If it were a little more expensive but some kind of AOE, or an outright kill, I could see it maybe, but... three damage, once? Pass.

The only real response to that is:

1) If they're going to shoot it anyway, they're going to shoot it anyway... Having it tehre or not makes no difference whatsovever

2) Its potentially 3 Damage to Rhymer which makes him easier to clean up later with Anti-Ship Firepower, because its easier.

3) If it stops Rhymer from shooting, then it stops Rhymer from Shooting... Win/Win for 5 points...

Of course, its all horridly anecdotal. But its what I've experienced when I've used it (on various ships) so far.

The only real response to that is:

1) If they're going to shoot it anyway, they're going to shoot it anyway... Having it tehre or not makes no difference whatsovever

2) Its potentially 3 Damage to Rhymer which makes him easier to clean up later with Anti-Ship Firepower, because its easier.

3) If it stops Rhymer from shooting, then it stops Rhymer from Shooting... Win/Win for 5 points...

Of course, its all horridly anecdotal. But its what I've experienced when I've used it (on various ships) so far.

It's not really more frightening than an X-wing coming after rhymer. In fact, less, because I don't have to worry about it shooting at me twice or following me around or pinning him down and needing an intel bailout. I will take those 4 dice on Rhymer or a firespray any day of the week. In point of fact rhymer rarely shoots in my games, he mostly jumps around with no squadron command and turrets for firesprays (which is also good because I have a famous ability to roll blanks all day long on any type or description of tie bomber). Add to that the fact that the CB bearing ship will now be a demolisher target #1 and not even need fighter intervention...

I know YOU know this, but it's just so **** situational, niche and specific for 5 points it's not worth it. If it was 2 or 3 points even it would be worth sliding into every unused def retrofit slot. As it is...meh

Clusters on a CR90?

Stopping Rhymer rolling 1 black dice is a win? when he has his entire complement of squadrons sat at medium range pounding you to snot?

Positioned right a Rhymerball can be placed, and not need activating for 3+ rounds, and still shoot a ship every single round, I dunno about you, but having to not activate my bombers while they obliterate something over 3 rounds, is worth not risking Rhymer and losing that 1 dice.

Rhymer is far far more than a single black dice, I'd take him if he had no dice for attacking ships.

Cluster Bombs are terrible, I cannot believe there is even a discussion about them.

being a one time attack on one stand of fighters no mater the game,still makes it a waste of points to me, now if it was attacking every stand of fighters in a hull zone or let you hit with your anti fighter shots on hits and crits for the whole game, it might be worth 5 points and a upgrade slot.

as is

I have no clue what the person who wrote this card was thinking its use in the game was. its not likely to do 5 points of damage unless you happen to shoot at a 3 hull fighter and roll well.

its not likely to do 5 points of damage unless you happen to shoot at a 3 hull fighter and roll well.

A tie fighter has 3 hull each worth 8/3=2.7pts. So you have to do two damage to a tie fighter for it to be worth 5 points.

There may be more value to be had elsewhere, but cluster bombs IS worth 5pts when activated.