Hello,

I have a question regarding "the start of a round" timing instance.

I have heard two interpretation of the start instance.

A. Both players share the same "start of a round" instance - Only one "start of a round" command card may be played from both players

In this case, the player with initiative may choose to play a command card with the word "Use at the start of a round". The "start" instance is over because something has been played. Therefore, the second player doesn't get to play his "Use at the start of a round" command card.

This interpretation makes having the initiative more powerful. Also, it provides different types of counter play to prevent second player from playing command cards.

B. Two players have their separate "the start of a round" instances - Both players may play one "start of a round" command card each.

In this case, the player with initiative plays may play a start instance command card. After the effects are resolved, the time instance become second player's "start of a round" instance and he/she may choose to play a "start of a round" command card.

This interpretation is....fairer?

If you could provide some insight and official ruling sources to back it up that would be great.

Both players may play any number of cards that have the trigger "start of round" (and "end of round" as well). Initiative is used for timing of effect resolution if the order of the effects is important.

Except you can't play two cards with the same name during the same timing instance. (for example only one Reinforcements per player during start of round.)

Except you can't play two cards with the same name during the same timing instance. (for example only one Reinforcements per player during start of round.)

That too. I wanted to combat the crux of his query by removing the inaccurate statement of "Both players may play one "start of a round" command card each.".

There can be....only one!!!

No. There is another.

"And so it begins. You have forgotten something."
-- Kosh to Sinclair in Babylon 5:"Chrysalis"

Mixed metaphors?

"And so it begins. You have forgotten something."

-- Kosh to Sinclair in Babylon 5:"Chrysalis"

Mixed metaphors?

No idea what you're talking about.

Do both players have to play their cards at the same time, or does the player with initiative go first, then the other player reveals their cards?

From my understanding, there is no implicit order in which cards by both players can be played when the (start/end of round) trigger happens. Players will play cards, and Initiative is only used to resolve timing conflicts in instances where timing of effects matters.

There are no mentions in RAW of which player must play command cards in any stated order, only that they may be played when the card states it can be played, and any conflicts are resolved as normal.

Yep, there is. Found it in the rulebook. See below. Player with initiative plays first, then followed by his opponent.

According to the card database, there are very few cards that are played at the end of a round:

• Against the Odds
• Ferocity
• Jundland Terror

And these are the Start of Round cards:

• Adrenaline
• Close the Gap
• Collect Intel
• Dangerous Bargains
• Efficient Travel
• Fuel Upgrade
• Harsh Environment
• I Make My Own Luck
• Overdrive
• Reinforcements
• Set a Trap
• Sit Tight
• Take Initiative
• There is Another

Most of these cards would not cause any sort of timing conflict, but there are a few that could. For example: If both players play "Jundland Terror", then the player with initiative would determine which Jundland Terror resolves first.

This is important in a scenario where I want to play something like Ferocity, but the opponent could use Jundland Terror to kill what I wanted to use it on, so then I might want to save it for next round.

See Timing, page 2 of the RRG.

The player with initiative can't decide whether their cards or the opponent's cards resolves first, the player with initiative always resolves their own cards/abilities first. (Outside of an attack.)

The player with initiative decides in which order mission rules with the same trigger resolve and after they are done, in which order to resolve their own cards/abilities.

The player with initiative must play all of their cards/effects for a trigger (in this case start of round) first, then the other player plays theirs for the same trigger. Once the player with initiative says they are done, they can't play cards / abilities as a reaction to the other player's cards/abilities, because they are past the timing window.

Specifically, we know that the player with initiative can't play Take Initiative as a reaction to the non-initiative player playing Take Initiative, because they are past their timing window by then.

Similarly: during attacks mission rules are resolved first, then attacker abilities, then the defender abilities. For example Fenn needs to decide whether to use Trench Fighter before imperial needs to decide on Prey Upon Doubt. Another example: the attacker needs to decide whether to reroll attack dice (for example Squad Training) or force defender to reroll defense dice (Versatile Weaponry) before defender needs to decide on rerolling defense dice (for example Foresight).

In practise you don't always say "pass" when you proceed through various triggers. In the campaign you almost always know to stop to ask whether the opponent wants to trigger their ability, but with skirmish and hidden command cards you will sometimes need some rollback to get the timing correct to resolve things in the correct order. (But I guess in most cases it still does not matter, because no new hidden information has been revealed.)

Conflicts, RRG, Page 9:

The decision for a player to resolve an optional effect coincides with the order of resolution. After a player has declined to trigger one or more abilities, he does not have the opportunity to trigger that ability until the next triggering instance.

During a skirmish, mission rules are resolved first, followed by effects from the player with initiative, then effects from his opponent.

• If multiple mission rules would resolve at the same time, the player with initiative decides the order of resolution.

After looking at the rule book (which I should do more often, instead of answering quickly while multitasking), I see that only Mission Rules , not effects , fall under the decision of resolution by the player with Initiative. As with the "Take Initiative" ruling, this would mean that the player with Initiative would play his/her start/end of round effects, then his/her opponent would have the opportunity to do so.

Thank you for the input. I think my questions (and relating ones) are answered pretty thoroughly.

Agree with the above.

The end of a round look like this.

• Last Activation is completed
• STATUS PHASE BEGINS
• Ready Deployment Cards
• Draw Command Cards
• Resolve Mission Rules (Initiative player decideds order if multiple rules conflict)
• Initiative Player plays any/all End of Round Cards they want
• Other Player plays any/all End of Round Cards they want
• Pass Initiative
• ACTIVATION PHASE BEGINS
• Initiative Player plays any/all Start of Round Cards they want
• Other Player plays any/all Start of Round Cards they want (Take Initiative can be played here)
• Initiative Player starts first Activation

What's the timing, when Take Initiative is involved?

What's the timing, when Take Initiative is involved?

A new round has just begun and players now get to play their 'Start of Round' command cards.

Bob, having the initiative, plays and resolves all his command cards.

Bob being done, it is now Lucy's turn to resolve her command cards. Amongst them are "Take Initiative" and Lucy takes over the initiative and the start of round window closes once Lucy is done playing command cards, which means that Bob can no longer play command cards (including his own Take Initiative).

If the player with initiative plays Take Initiative, they need to exhaust a deployment card, then they retain initiative (so only a disadvantage). The non-initiative player then plays Take Initiative, exhausts a deployment card and receives initiative and start of round ends. (to avoid complications in rules interpretations, always play Take Initiative last if you play other start of round cards.)

Similarly: during attacks mission rules are resolved first, then attacker abilities, then the defender abilities. For example Fenn needs to decide whether to use Trench Fighter before imperial needs to decide on Prey Upon Doubt. Another example: the attacker needs to decide whether to reroll attack dice (for example Squad Training) or force defender to reroll defense dice (Versatile Weaponry) before defender needs to decide on rerolling defense dice (for example Foresight).

I agree with all of your post above, Pasi, but wanted to ask your opinion on something even more specific about timing during attacks.

Some effects say to use "While attacking" and FFG has responded on a rules question on the skirmish command card "Heavy Armor" (negates pierce) can be played at any time (short of when the attack is done). It could then be argued that the "while attacking" wording supercedes both the ordinary sequences of resolving an attack as well as the timing rules (attacker first, then defender, e.g. for adding or subtracting surges during step 4 of resolving the attack).

I can see where this position is coming from, given FFGs ruling on Heavy Armor, but it makes the timing rules unecessarily messy and I personally don't think that this conclusion can be extrapolated from the Heavy Armor ruling, partly because it is from a command card and partly because it is not an effect that rerolls dice (specifically step 3), adds/removes icons (step 4), influences accuracy (step 6), etc.

The way I have always played it is, whoever has Initiative plays 'End of Round' cards 1st, then opponent plays theirs. The Initiative token then passes over. That is the end of the round.

The player with the Initiative then plays their 'Start of Round' cards. When they have played all of their cards for the round it then goes to their opponent to play their cards. Once this has happened the round continues with deployment cards being activated.

All cards that want to be played are played 1st by the person who has the Initiative at that time and then followed by their opponent.

Start and End of Round cards can be interrupted by other cards, (if possible) like 'Negation'

Negation's trigger isn't the start/end of round though. Negation's trigger is when your opponent plays a zero cost command card.

Some effects say to use "While attacking" and FFG has responded on a rules question on the skirmish command card "Heavy Armor" (negates pierce) can be played at any time (short of when the attack is done).

I'm not sure if Paul had the same reason, but I arrived to the same conclusion about Heavy Armor , and it is because of the wording on the RRG about Pierce. Nowhere in the rules does Pierce remove symbols, Pierce allows a number of blocks equal to the Pierce value to be ignored when calculating the damage to be applied to the target. So, Heavy Armor can thus be played any time before calculating the damage during step 7 of the attack (and due to 'due process' you can't speed through the steps without allowing reactions).

(You can also deplete an item card that allows you to recover 5 damage at any time in the campaign, but I need to check its name. I was ready to restrict this to any time between but not during actions, but the ruling is that it can be used any time, even during attacks.)

After pondering about it for a few hours in the back of my mind, right now I think that "while attacking" is a shorthand (the cards can hold only so much text, so it is very much required) for all abilities that you must perform before or during a certain step. You can trigger them at any time before the 'last chance' (or even after, but then don't get the benefit), but the conflict resolution order will become relevant only if both the attacker and defender wait for the last possible moment to trigger the ability. I think this is both how the RAW and reality works.

After pondering about it for a few hours in the back of my mind, right now I think that "while attacking" is a shorthand (the cards can hold only so much text, so it is very much required) for all abilities that you must perform before or during a certain step. You can trigger them at any time before the 'last chance' (or even after, but then don't get the benefit), but the conflict resolution order will become relevant only if both the attacker and defender wait for the last possible moment to trigger the ability. I think this is both how the RAW and reality works.

By during certain steps am I right to assume that you're referring to the seven individual steps of an attack (declare, roll, reroll, add modifiers, spend surges, accuracy, and damage)?

The thing is the passage, as you also paraphrased earlier in the thread, in the RRG under conflicts that:

The decision for a player to resolve an optional effect coincides with the order of resolution. After a player has declined to trigger one or more abilities, he does not have the opportunity to trigger that ability until the next triggering instance.

And if we have to wait until the last possible moment to trigger them, it leads to a time-consuming Mexican standoff on who draws first, rather than just make it a simple question to the attacker, "so, do you want to trigger an ability that (rerolls, adds icons, etc. appropriate for the current step?)" and asking the defender the same, once the attacker has decided. Done and onward to the next point on the agenda.

It seems I wasn't complete enough while you worded it perfectly well.

To be able to move to the next step, the player with initiative / the attacker announces that you are ready to move to the next step (having played and triggered what you want to at that point) to confirm the other player has played and trigger any applicable abilities they would like to at that point.

But nothing prevents players from triggering "while attacking" abilities during earlier steps, which speeds up the game even more, or declare some abilities conditional, i.e. that you need to see the situation before the decision. So, in most cases steps 4 through 7 are compressed into one. You mostly know going into each next step which abilities trigger. You need to stop for the conditional ones only or if the other player tells you to hold on to be able to think about what to do.

So, waiting was a wrong word. The active player needs to keep the game moving because there is no external timer that calls the steps.

(Talk it through, like calling the steps of an encounter in Cosmic Encounter.)

So if an ability is used "while attacking" or "while defending" and grants a reroll... can that be used at any time during the attack steps or only at Step 3?

I imagine it's only step 3. The re-roll bit is far more specific than "while attacking".

The RRG is quite explicit about any "while attacking" abilities that reroll dice.

3. Rerolls: If players have any effects that reroll dice, they are resolved now .

And any "while attacking" abilities that add or remove icons:

4. Apply Modifiers: If players have any effects that gain or remove icons or Accuracy, they are applied at this time.

And any "while attacking" abilities that you use to gain surge abilities have to be resolved before(/during) step 5 to be able to spend surges on them.

Like I said, "while attacking" could be considered shorthand for "if this ability grants reroll, use in the step 3 of an attack", "if this ability adds or removes icons or accuracy, use in step 4 of an attack", "if this ability gains you surge abilities, use before/during step 5 of an attack", "if this ability adds keywords, use before step 7 of an attack".